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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
 Posted - 10/26/2007 : 18:38:02
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I know that symptomatic treatment should NEVER be the sole approach to any medical problem, but there was one instance where I tried it (before I was able to fully conquer my TMS) because I thought that it addressed the underlying physiology (not the CAUSE) of the pain. The situation I am referring to is my experience with tinnitus and the posited treatment is ginkgo biloba. Sort of.
I first came across ginkgo when my TMS transitioned to tinnitus. Ginkgo is one of the most researched herbal supplements and many people use it for a number of different conditions. However, its only mainstream medical use is in Alzheimer's patients to help improve memory function. With regard to tinnitus, studies have gone back and forth through the years as to whether ginkgo is effective or not in tinnitus patients. Normally, such a clinical reputation makes me think that the therapy is not effective and any reported positive results can probably be attributed to the placebo effect.
However, when I read that ginkgo MIGHT work by improving/increasing the microcirculation to both the brain and the extremities while simultaneously acting as a natural stress reliever, I thought to myself that ginkgo MAY be the ideal TMS drug, as Dr. Sarno has theorized for years that the physiologic cause of TMS symptoms may be that of mild oxygen deprivation attributed to sympathetic microcirculatory vasoconstriction.
I decided to simultaneously eliminate caffeine from my diet (because of its effects as a cerebral vasoconstrictor and its reported effect in tinnitus exacerbation) and to supplement ginkgo biloba. The effects were noteworthy and the combination, along with repudiating the physical and acknowledging it as purely a TMS equivalent, were sufficient to nearly eliminate my tinnitus.
I MUST mention that I do NOT believe that all tinnitus is TMS. Tinnitus that is the result of neural damage due to excessive noise exposure may not be amenable to this approach. That being said, I'm sure there are many people out there that THINK their tinnitus is due to excessive noise exposure (cf. patients who think their back pain is due to a herniated disk) when in fact their minds are playing the same TMS trick on them yet again. However, if the onset and characteristics of your tinnitus resemble that of other TMS equivalents, you may want to consider ginkgo supplementation as it MAY help address the underlying physiology.
I believe that the range of successful results to ginkgo biloba in clinical studies may be due to the fact that tinnitus of various etiologies are being treated the same way, when in fact only the TMS variety may be amenable to ginkgo supplementation. I should probably also mention that the ginkgo SEEMED to eliminate whatever small vestige of my TMS low back pain had remained (perhaps due to its microcirculatory effects peripherally?), but if this was a placebo effect then it is one that I will gladly accept.
So basically, consider supplementation with ginkgo biloba (n.b. I continue to take it). It "worked" for me and it has no real toxicity. Besides, I think that those of us that are susceptible to TMS are probably just as prone to placebo-type cures, and that's just fine with me.
Note: the positive effects of ginkgo are usually not apparent for the first 6-12 weeks so such supplemenation requires patience and consistency. Of course, always consult your personal physician before making any changes to your pharmacologic regimen, as there is always the possibility for drug interactions, etc.
Best,
MK |
Edited by - mk6283 on 10/26/2007 18:51:45 |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 19:47:56
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| Interesting. I think overall good nutrition can only help one in becoming healthier in all ways. Healthy eating/supplementation is necessary to have a sound body/mind/spirit and can only help one with dealing with and/or avoiding TMS. I take a supplement called living fuel www.livingfuel.com and it has gingko in it as well. I've only started taking this supplement long after I've had to deal with TMS so therefore I can't say anything about the direct effect of it but I concur that it could be helpful. There are many natural herbs, supplements that could potentially be helpful to overall health. Since TMS can affect any bodily system it is a good preventative medicine to keep yourself in good overall condition. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 00:12:01
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mk, I'm curious about your position on the gingko addressing the physiology since you said you used it in combination with TMS thinking -- it sounded like you began applying both at the same time. How can you determine how much each one contributed in that case?
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 08:03:15
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Not exactly. I, like many other members of this forum, was initially finding it hard to eliminate the tinnitus with solely a TMS approach. It was not as easily amenable to Dr. Sarno's techniques as some of the other TMS equivalents are. I think it is probably impossible to eliminate the tinnitus entirely (100%), because it likely represents a shift in the baseline background noise level that we perceive, one that occurs at the neuronal level. As a matter of fact, a study showed that ALL people actually experience tinnitus (to varying degrees) when they are placed in a noise-proof room.
That being said, I do believe that the TMS variant of tinnitus, like TMS musculoskeletal pain, is initiated by, and partially maintained by, microcirculatory alterations to inner ear structures. Therefore, ginkgo supplementation, in combination with the TMS mindset, "worked for me." More than that, I cannot say with any real medical certainty. My tinnitus is now 99% eliminated; I believe that the remaining 1% (which I can only find if I really look for it) can never be eliminated as it simply represents the same tinnitus that ALL people CAN experience, except that most people never have any reason to seek it out (nor would they acknowledge it for what it was if they did). Hope this helps.
Note: the "reported dose" of ginkgo biloba for the treatment of tinnitus/vertigo is 120-160 mg/day divided into 2-3 doses, which is considerably higher than that which is found in many multivitamin preparations. Therefore, additional supplementation may be required. Good luck.
Best,
MK |
Edited by - mk6283 on 10/27/2007 08:15:28 |
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mcone
114 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 15:30:11
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
Interesting. I think overall good nutrition can only help one in becoming healthier in all ways. Healthy eating/supplementation is necessary to have a sound body/mind/spirit and can only help one with dealing with and/or avoiding TMS.
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
-- it sounded like you began applying both at the same time. How can you determine how much each one contributed in that case?
This opens up a whole pandora's box for me personally. For many years, I've been a huge believer in the potential for nutrition and dietary supplements to influence a broad range of health conditions.
Following repeated bouts of disabling depression in my late teens and early twenties, around 1991, I adopted a very disciplined "healthy" lifestyle, employing wholesome diet, regular exercise and extensive "educated" use of dietary supplements (many types of nutrients, vitamins, minerals, herbs, amino acids, etc.). Depression lifted, I felt better than ever, relocated, went to graduate school, etc., and I did not experience another *serious* depressive episode until about a year go (some months after the phsyical health problems started).
For all these years (until learning of TMS recently), I've attributed my 15 years of remission to the nutrition and supplements. (And when depression finally set in again, I reasoned that I had not really been following my nutritional ideals closely in recent years, and/or that the tremendous stress eventually exceeded the reslience and resistance that I had gained by nutritional means)
Lately, however, I've been forced to rethink everything...
I've wrestled with how TMS is reconciled with physiological models of depression (genetics, brain chemistries and structures, etc.) and corresponding treatments (drugs, supplements, exercise, etc.). A fundamental question for me has been, if *mindbody*, then why not *bodymindbody?* In other words, we recognize that the mind is influencing our physical health, but how is the physical health of the brain organ affecting our mind? Most would agree that our minds can be influenced by drugs, nutrients, etc. which operate solely by affecting the brain organ. But can we employ these physical measures to improve, change or normalize the functioning of our brains in ways that can positively affect TMS?
What I've settled on (for now) is that a physically healthy brain *might* support the TMS discipline (and *maybe* even advance a resolution), but that ultimately the effort and mental work must be done by the mind (and done in conjunction with body when challenging the pain, for example).
This comes from recognizing (based on accounts here and in an RSI forum) that tranquilizers and anti-depressants (or even meditation, and relaxtion, by themselves) do not seem to be any kind of magic bullet for reducing TMS symptoms and pain. I also recently recognized (in hindsight) that during my first year of grad school (while under stress of exams) I starting having TMS symptoms - jaw tension and the anxious feeling that my bite was misaligned. Looking back, it occurs to me that although my symptoms of depression were under control (via supplements and nutrition, etc.), the "rage" or whatever, was still present and expressed itself as jaw tension (TMS equivalent).
With all that being said, I think it's entirely plausible (but no way to know for sure, as acl suggests) that Ginkgo could reduce symptoms of tinnitus (regardless of whether precipitated by noise exposure or TMS). Although not the ideal solution to TMS of course (as indicated by the OP), I think symptom improvement with Ginkgo remains consistent with TMS theory, as it is reported to increase micro-circulation (and thus mitigate against some of TMS's "downstream" effects).
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Edited by - mcone on 10/27/2007 15:32:34 |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 17:17:43
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| YES! body-mind-body is possible. I've experienced it. Also spirit-mind-body, or body-spirit-mind and just plain BODY-MIND etc....Therefore there are an unlimited amount of ways to become healthier. Problem is that there are so many quacks out there trying to sell their ineffective methods that its hard to sort through it all. But there are methods that can improve your mind solely through a physical means, just as with TMS theory we can influence our bodies are get rid of pain solely through a mental means. |
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lidge
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 19:02:02
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I agree with McCone's assessment that if it could be mindbody why not all sorts of permutations - bodymindbody etc. One of my questions about TMS as Sarno sees it, is could real physical problem cause you anxiety which then leads to more physical problems etc. Sarno sees the absolute root of all TMS problems as psychological. So I suppose he would always say that the physical problem (unless it is one of those that he doesn't ascribe to TMS like diabetes) always starts with the psychological.
I know that studies show that chronic back pain leads to depression, but also show that depression leads to chronic pain!
Re vasoconstriction- In my quest for relief I went to vascular surgeon to check circulation. All the pulses were fine But then he looked at my purple feet - I mentioned I had Raynauds and it was always bad in the doctor's office. He said, Oh you're lucky you haven't lost a toe! He offered me a drug called Platel? but told me it takes months to work and could make me nauseated. Since he adamently believed my pain was not related to circulation, I figured why bother (He said, trust me Honey the pain is all from your spine!).
If Sarno's theory that it is lack of circulation, I do wonder if a drug that improved circulation would help? But right now, certainly don't want to add nausea to the mix!
BTW, is gingko the only supplement to improve circulation? Doesn't ginseng(like Ginsana) also make claims for oxygen uptake?
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mcone
114 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 19:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by lidge
I agree with McCone's assessment that if it could be mindbody why not all sorts of permutations - bodymindbody etc. One of my questions about TMS as Sarno sees it, is could real physical problem cause you anxiety which then leads to more physical problems etc. Sarno sees the absolute root of all TMS problems as psychological. So I suppose he would always say that the physical problem (unless it is one of those that he doesn't ascribe to TMS like diabetes) always starts with the psychological.
I would submit that Dr. Sarno would very well agree that the frustration of dealing with a non-TMS physical problem (like you've experienced with your ear) could add to the reservoir of rage that could precipitate pure TMS symptoms (similar to rage about getting older).
One permutation I was thinking of is whether TMS could be regarded as simply an organic condition of the brain organ - just as many consider depression, anxiety and schizophrenia to be organic conditions relating to brain chemistry, brain metabolism and physiology. (I know this sounds like heresy, but what if a TMS metabolic-type were discovered, or some magic bullet cure - obviously not present-day medicines - could reverse the TMS process?).
At the end of the day (at least, this day) I'm left with a conventional conclusion about all this - that even if some of us are born with a genetic biological predisposition towards anxiety, depression (or even TMS!), it is ultimately our environment, our experiences and the way we interepet them that lead to the disorder.
Moreover, it seems that treating depression or anxiety by itself (as surely many of us did before discovering TMS) doesn't necessary resolve TMS symptoms (at least it doesn't resolve them once they've begun); what seems to work is for the mind to make the association between the physical symptoms and the abberant psycholgical state. Of course, there is a quote for this from HBP: "The most important factor in recovery is that the person must be made aware of what is going on...information...is the 'penicillin' for this disorder."
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Edited by - mcone on 10/27/2007 19:50:24 |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 21:51:53
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Just because there is a body-mind connection, doesn't mean this is the time to start shifting to other ways of treating TMS. The body-mind connection that I speak of is much different than getting surgery to "fix" a structural issue. I believe there is a body-mind connection but I also believe that 90% of orthopedic surgery's are un-necessary, especially those relating to "disc" problems. Getting surgery or going to physical therapy won't facilitate a body-mind connection IMHO.
It is always best for a newbie to focus their efforts on treating the TMS with the TMS techniques that Sarno lays out, then down the road when you become more in tune with your body you can start looking at other options to improve overall health. |
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Ginkgo Biloba
