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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
 Posted - 10/16/2007 : 09:01:54
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Part of Dr. Sarno's theory is that the pain can be related to changes in or lack of circulation due to nervous system control...
I was wondering how many people here show other signs of changes/or poor circulation such as cold hands or feet?
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lidge
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 10:58:34
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I"m so glad you started this thread as I was going to myself. I mentioned several times on this board that I have Raynaud's- just a nice name for your hands and feet getting white and purple when exposed to cold, stress.
While reading Sarno, I wondered whether those who took longer to recover had other manifestations of poor circulation etc.
I had the pulses tested in my legs and they were normal, but I recall having an EMG last year that was normal but had irregularities due to low skin temperature. My body temperature has been below "normal"
for as long as I can remember.
When Sarno writes that the postural muscles, neck and back are especially prone to pain due to decreased oxygen, I wonder why there in particular? Are they the last places to receive oxygen?
For me, and others with this syndrome it is hands and toes. My hands don't hurt, though my toes get numb. Why isn't my hand the thing that is hurting? Is it because it gets more exercise (typing on the computer etc.?
Also wonder whether decreased oxygen to the legs or back could actually cause intense heat and burning sensation?
I really wish more of the people that just read these replies would chime in- it would really help everyone. |
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csmoon
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 11:56:53
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Lidge,
I got hung up by this in the early stages as well. Having never been one to just accept anything on face value, I kept challenging the validity of the physiological theory. And I discovered that this was done to my own detriment. Once I started ignoring the pain and just doing things again, I got better quickly. I am now nearly completely normal save for a few activities that I struggle with, all due to conditioned fear, and all benign.
I think it is perhaps the first step to healing to accept. And this means dropping argumentation over mode of pain. It is enough to believe the pain is not dangerous in order to lose the fear, and once that is done, you are on your way. Fear is the gas for the pain engine. Read the success stories over and over. The recurrent theme is fear left and so did the pain.
I think you are like me in that you tend to analyze things down to the nth degree. It drives my wife nuts. She has told me thousands of times that I would enjoy life more and get more out of every experience if I could just tone down the analysis. It ain't easy. But I sense this theme in your posts, and I must say that after being run through the mill with doctors, I can't blame you. But it is not helping you to read reread the sections on physiology. This may never be proven, and there are many spirited discussions on this board both pro and con about what happens in the body to cause pain. This is like arguing about what love means. No one knows, so why argue?
Personally, I think TMS is nothing more than somatization, making mountains out of molehills, and continually freaking out over pain is the cause, setting up cycles of agony. It is very similar in that respect to panic attacks leading to agoraphobia. Dr. Siegel's book, Back Sense, helped me make that connection, but I could be completely wrong. And here's what is important: I don't care if I am right or wrong, only that I am benefitting from the information. And I could never have benefitted until I let go of needing to agree that the brain picks a capillary at random and very near a real injury to start its mischief. This is to me an unfortunate (although nevessary) part of the books because it requires such strain from the doctor with little proof of the actual process. In the end, Dr. Sarno admits he isn't sure of this, so it really doesn't matter.
I journaled about this very tendency a few weeks back and wrote about all sorts of times in my life I dismissed people because I set too high a standard or started picking apart their speech, even avoiding girlfriends or potential dates because of petty flaws I found when my brain got started on the analysis wheel.
Perhaps this was useful to you, I don't know, but your tone seems to be that of skeptic, which is good in some respects, but in TMS is a major hurdle that will have to be overcome. For me, simplifying and demystifying the disorder were key. That couldn't happen when I was reading this and that book, emailing Dr. Sopher, and reading and reading and reading here on the forum. I had to decide to accept.
I wish you well. |
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lidge
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 12:35:45
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CsMoon-
I appreciate your post. Yes I do not want to get hung up on why TMS works etc. I agree that TMS equals somatization.
I do think its fair to ask whether TMS prone tend to have other circulatory problems which are clearly a result of the autonomic nervous system gone haywire. This past year I have clearly felt
my body has not been able to switch off the fight or flight-
some type of bodily manifestation was inevitable.
Still, it is helpful to me to hear the answer to John's question, not
because I want to look for a physical "out" - on the contrary I believe. Sarno's theory is not in conflict with my analytical nature, because it is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point. |
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cfhunter
119 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 19:08:05
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Similar thing....I have had "foot" issues for years but in the last two years my feet used to respond MISERABLY to hot water.
I would take a hot bath and get out and my feet would throb and burn for hours.
I would have to sit with them above the water if I wanted a bath then JUMP out of the tub.
I started the TMS thinking and that stopped. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 07:26:51
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Frankly, I would not concentrate too much on the physiology of TMS and that is thinking physically and Dr. Sarno himself admits he may be wrong on the particulars of the physiology. Think instead of how pain in keeping you distracted from repressed emotions and not trying to understand how at all works as that can also be a distraction.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 12:38:37
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| I was just wondering more out of curiosity. Anyone else willing to share would be appreciated. |
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lidge
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 15:15:00
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I think its a good question and I do wish others would respond.
I forgot to mention that when I was allergy tested for the first time
last year, I was told I had something called "dermatographism"-
they scrape your arm and the welt stays there a long time-
but I did not have tons of alleriges. More a heighetnend immune response. I wonder whether some people take longer to get better because their have an inherent (or acquired?) hyperactive autonomic
response going on.
Yes it is focusing on physical and perhaps it is counterproductive-
but I think it is a fair and pertinent question.
John do you have anything along this line? Anyone else? |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 16:48:53
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Interesting, ive always had very poor circulation to the extremities, get cold/numb toes and fingers very easily.
I agree with csmoon's points. Ive been a way from this forum a while and i think its helped since ive been able to stop stressing over what exactly is causing the problem and dealing more with the hopeful solution, which is in my case to start removing sources of stress and stressful reactions, and ignoring the symptoms. THe last few weeks have been very rocky, but i believe i continue to make gradual progress. On the other hand, FWIW, i hope someone figures out the physiological mechanism, cause that would be a pretty good thing!  |
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celloLWF
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 21:47:48
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as for ringing in the ears, it is most DEFINITELY related to circulation. "poor" circulation? I'm not sure...if you mean lack of blood I don't think that is the case.
Ringing is known to increase when my ears feel "full", as in full of blood. caffeine is known by mainstream medical doctors to increase ringing, as well as alcohol. All of those increase blood circulation.
so, I've been able to mentally and somewhat physically (by means of closing my ears with my fingers and tensing my head and neck muscles) to nearly completely ELIMINATE the various frequencies of ringing. I have done this 4 times in the last 7 weeks. I haven't made it permanent, but it shows me that ringing isn't required. I can control it.
anyone else have that experience with ringing? |
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miche
Canada
283 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 23:14:50
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| John , I was diagnosed with Raynaud two years before I was diagnosed with fibro, I have not had any symptom of Raynaud in the last twelve years, I am at a loss to say why , it just went away and never came back, symptom imperative ? maybe? from what I have read there could be several reasons for cold hands and feet, some are serious, the majority are not, stress is named as a cause,some medication have that as a side effect, lupus can cause it , etc |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 23:32:17
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I'll chime in. The older I get the worse my circulation is naturally. I don't get the sensations you guys are talking about, but my arms fall asleep a lot when I'm sleeping. I also notice that these sorts of things happen under more stressful times. When I was going the the whole "I need to be active and work out to get rid of my pain" stage I swam a mile a day. The pain would always go away like a charm and I thought " Hey it's because I have bad circulation and am working out now". After about 2 months of vigorous workouts every damn day, I slacked off for about 4 days. Well the pain returned just like it did before. I wasn't "cured", I was just giving my body enough oxygen and anxiety release to be temporary. Trust me, getting to the bottom of my emotional states and psyche do a lot more than working out ever did for pain.'
And people with poor circulation have different kinds of symptoms and it's measurable. Could it contribute to TMS? I don't see why not honestly. But TMS hasn't been studied in depth into that realm yet I don't think. I just know that I thought I had a "circulation" problem and did everything to fight "it" with no long lasting effects. Now smoking, that's another ball of wax. I have a theory that smokers with TMS have a harder time with pain on top of the usual TMS manifestation, but I'm not a biologist or doctor, and I don't have funding to test that theory. I do think nicotine disrupts blood flow enough to mimic TMS. When I quit smoking for a while, I had ZERO pain anywhere and felt like a teenager, started back up and aches and pains (pre TMS era in my life)seemed to come around more.
Balance Daniel San Balance. Or I should say "Badahnse Danier San".
That's my two cents....now go journal or scream at the wall about your life stresses and do less TMS forum posting. Just a reminder. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 07:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by la_kevin
The older I get the worse my circulation is naturally.
Gee la_Kevin, your bio says your only 33.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 13:14:59
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In musician years.........I'M OLD...
Plus I mean more the smoking. It takes a toll after a while. If I didn't smoke, didn't have TMS pain, I would definitely be rolling around in the ring boxing or twisting like a nut doing submission holds like a madman.
I guess I feel old. It's part of my "issues". Shhhh |
Edited by - la_kevin on 10/18/2007 13:18:51 |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 16:17:42
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Even after I made a complete recovery I still had cold hands and feet at times, so thats definitely not anything you have to worry about as far as getting past TMS.
Lately I've been doing a different kind of body work purely for better physical fitness, combined with a very nutritionally sound diet. I've found that this has gotten rid of my cold hands and feet.
I also use hot/cold flush showers in order to jump start my circulation in the morning. |
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circulation
