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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2007 : 08:45:47
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In his lecture Dr. Sarno talks about "Western values and the values of capitalism" as being instrumental in contributing to the onset of TMS. He stated that in completely different societies, where these values do not exist, TMS is not an issue.
What do board members think those values are of which Dr. Sarno alludes to?
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 10/11/2007 19:35:07 |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2007 : 10:46:22
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First of all lets remember that Dr. Sarno is only human, and his thoughts on what causes TMS are just theory. He was able to identify that the cause of pain can be outside the physical realm -- an amazing leap of thinking that nobody else identified, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he knows everything about what causes TMS. My reason for stating this is that I think everyone's journey to total health is a very personal journey and is variable based on so many things such as personal history, genetic predispositions etc...
That said, I think the western emphasis on success, and image at the cost of being more authentic is a major contributor to TMS. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2007 : 11:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
What do board members think those values are of which Dr. Sarno alludes to?
This is an area of the TMS idea that really puzzles me. And I think the explanation he offers is a big part of the answer. But I wonder if there might be more. For example, in non western societies there is often great pressure just to survive from day to day. So there should be tremendous opportunity for the mind to repress difficult or frightening thoughts into the unconscious. Why then do they not have TMS epidemics? It doesn't matter that they don't know about whiplash, ulcers, or back MRIs. Certainly they know about something. Why don't they have TMS about that? And our lives are MUCH easier, yet we have TMS. Do they have TMS but it's just not documented well? There appears to be an inconsistency.
So the way I've framed this in my mind is as follows. Suppose you are living in dire straights, and survival is difficult on a day to day basis. In that case, there should be plenty of pressure and emotional ammunition for repressing rage. But consider that the conflict in such a case is external, not internal. The inner "child" wants to get through the day and survive. So does the "ego". They are on the same team. There is no internal conflict. It's external. So the rage is never generated in the same sense, and therefore doesn't need to get repressed. A diversion from it is not required.
In our western society, we have it much easier (in some sense), but we have inner conflict. The inner child wants to go to the mall, and watch Seinfeld all day. The ego says we need to go to work and pay the mortgage. There is no external conflict. Life is easy. But we are spoiled, and as a result the inner child has tantrums over things eastern cultures might not bother with. As a result the inner conflict can be tremendous. Whether it is justified or not is another matter. I've trivialized the example. The conflict can be trivial, or it can be not trivial. Either way, it is simply there. And perhaps this is what causes TMS symptoms. The inner conflict between the various parts of the mind.
I don't know, it sounds a little fluffy to me, maybe even a little half baked. But it is not inconsistent with what Sarno has said about western culture. And it's the only way I've been able to reconcile the fact that in our society we have all this repressed rage, yet in other societies one is fortunate to simply get a polio shot and have dinner once in a while. So why do we have so much repressed rage, and TMS? Maybe the inner conflict is at issue (as opposed to the external conflict, with all parts of the mind playing well together, good times or bad).
Again, the inner conflict can be serious, or it can be trivial. It just matters how the mind divides, and generates rage over it. The rage gets repressed and TMS comes out. These are just my thoughts. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2007 : 15:07:32
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What about those values which place an emphasis on personal achievement and excelling in one's chosen profession?
A person's self worth or value in society becomes linked to money and social standing and a host of other factors.
In addition, with the extreme individualism that this society engenders, we are like little islands onto ourselves with very few safety networks.
I hope this discussion can open up a bit so that we can see the wider sociological factors that contribute to our rage and subsequent physical symptoms. Willard Gaylin's "The Rage Within" - which is recommended reading from Dr Sarno - is a good start, but I would like hear from board members
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2007 : 19:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
What about those values which place an emphasis on personal achievement and excelling in one's chosen profession?
A person's self worth or value in society becomes linked to money and social standing and a host of other factors.
In addition, with the extreme individualism that this society engenders, we are like little islands onto ourselves with very few safety networks.
...
All very good points. (Incidently, I will probably be adding these items to my personal list of "pressures" as I do my work, I did not consider them previously) |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2007 : 21:36:01
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I think "Western" is a funny choice to use. Both Japanese and Chinese culture are quite repressive of emotions in some regards (e.g. 'face' issues, obeying parents, corporate culture).
At work is a particular time when it is considered imperative to be pleasant, obliging, dedicated, etc. which may be much in contrast to how we really feel.
I'm also not sure that other societies don't have TMS or at least some form of mindbody syndrome. There's a novel Walkabout that tells the story of an Australian aborigine who literally wills himself to death. I don't know if it's based on fact, but it might be.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 07:55:20
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
I think "Western" is a funny choice to use. Both Japanese and Chinese culture are quite repressive of emotions in some regards ...
I travel to Japan several times each year for business, and I can tell you the pressures in that society are enormous. It is a culture of unbelievable courtesy, efficiency, and repression of emotion in favor of outward behavior. Most Americans do not fully appreciate the contrast between our societies in that regard. Unfortunately I have no idea about prevalence of mindbody syndromes in that society, but the Japanese embrace of "western" values in this regard, and the repression of emotional energy, should really make TMS an issue for them, assuming Sarno is correct in his assessment. If we have it, they should have it to the tenth degree.
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csmoon
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2007 : 14:47:55
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I think a lot of our frustration comes from expectation. We are bombarded by images of the good life that obviously involve money everytime we turn on the television. The fact that we may be struggling over difficult financial decisions (can we afford to put money away for junior's college,etc.) leaves us feeling a little inferior. Keeping up with the Joneses is more alive today than at anytime certainly in my life. It's as though today, if you have any diffficulties at all, you don't measure up.
I live in an area where the church plays a significant role, and itsmembers have wealth in abundancce. I am part of a different denomination altogether, so many of the social events that take place do so without me and my family, as we choose not to partake in this social ladder-climbing. This is enraging to me because people are so closed-off about religion and status, and they constantly link the two together. Internally, I would like to tell them what I think, but that wouldn't be good and proper. I didn't grow up in an area like this, so it was a rude awakening for me when I moved here and settled.
Politics does the same thing to me. Every time I turn on the TV, there are two nuts discussing some trivial issue -- one liberal and one conservative, and I never see a reasonable, honest assessment of any issue, just lots of arguing and blaming all of the world's ills on either the Bush clan or the Clintons, depending upon the party the bomb-thrrower represents. |
Edited by - csmoon on 10/05/2007 15:13:45 |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2007 : 19:08:51
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| MOST people have financial problems, and are living above their means and are in debt. This creates TMS for themselves and for the people around them who try to measure up and don't see through the facade. |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2007 : 23:00:26
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Profit above all, make it on your own, pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
I really appreciate your post, Anthonee. I agree with what you are saying so succinctly about the internal and external conflict.
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 05:55:39
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| AnthonEE and Carbar - I really like this topic. I think that the people more prone to TMS do have more "internal" conflicts. I think TMSers tend to be more moral (in a good way) than other "types" but sometimes this can go to far and we can spend more time seconding guessing ourselves and being our own critic which can create much internal angst. There are some people who have alot of conflict but they never second guess their own actions because they truly believe that everything that goes wrong has do with someone or something else. TMSers take much responsibility on their own shoulders (which can also be a good thing), but it can go too far leading to conflict and symptoms. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 20:30:37
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I have started viewing the internal conflict (synonymous with rage as presented by Sarno) as heat generated from these giant tectonic plates rubbing against each other inside the mind. We are raised in the western society to believe the world is one way (think santa claus, happy endings, etc), yet we grow older to learn it is very VERY different. And we are unwilling or unable to come to terms in a very deep fundamental way. As we go through life, many terrible things grind against our idealized construct of the world. And we repress them. Or maybe something really bad has happened to us, and we spend the rest of our adulthood trying to reconcile this with the rest of our experience. Again, this creates internal conflict and it gets repressed. Either way, one may choose to cast this as "the child wants this, the ego wants that". Internal conflict, distress, and despair, and "heat" is generated as a result. The TMS profile individual has the most internal friction because this person makes the most of these issues. It's precisely because we care about things and demand such perfection that these things are so empowered to create internal conflict. And so more conflict, distress and heat gets generated and subsequently repressed. The mind tries to contain it, but eventually it must erupt to the body like a volcano (TMS pain symptoms and equivalents).
I know this is not exactly what Sarno teaches; it is a metaphor that I've used to help clarify my own personal understanding of this mindbody process. I do strongly believe there must be some distinction between the inner conflict and external conflict. Otherwise, there are other individuals living in this world that would have simply imploded from TMS by now, because their lives are SO much more challenging than mine. Clearly they have frightening issues (things many of us soft western folks could hardly stomach). But somehow they are able to avoid the internal conflict, and possibly remain free from debilitating psychosomatic problems, yet I/we suffer. Maybe it is because we are less well adapted to this frightening world, and the TMS profile individual is apt to internalize to such a greater degree, and it creates mental heat using the metaphor I've chosen. Perhaps it is something in the western capitalist mindset that further fosters emotional heat from this type of internalizing response.
Anyway, maybe this then creates anxiety and depression as the mind's health begins to buckle under the weight of this internalized burden that we've created for (or done to) ourselves. The body symptoms could then follow from the anxiety or depression (a process that is abundantly documented). It would be as if TMS was an anxiety / depression equivalent. Or perhaps it is more like Sarno has described. The TMS symptoms are a protection mechanism from conflict that is too frightening to the unconscious. I find this a little far fetched, mostly because of my overly critical scientific view of things.
But the important point is this: it doesn't matter to me which particular interpretation is correct. What does matter is that I believe something like this is happening in one fashion or another. The result is the same, and maybe the treatment is the same. Anyway it helps me believe. So the internalized rage eventually creates sickness, and it erupts from the mind into the body as the overall mindbody becomes unhealthy.
As I continue to explore these ideas, it remains to be seen how well I will do with my view point. I am far from a success story here, but I am still very new to the ideas. Still very optimistic of course...
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Edited by - AnthonEE on 10/08/2007 08:00:33 |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 07:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
AnthonEE and Carbar - I think that the people more prone to TMS do have more "internal" conflicts. I think TMSers tend to be more moral (in a good way) than other "types" but sometimes this can go to far and we can spend more time seconding guessing ourselves and being our own critic which can create much internal angst.
I generally agree with this statement. I have indeed an internalized moral code that I wish to live up to but I am well aware that I fail to achieve that goal all of the time. I use this as an oportunity to beat myself up which enrages me. Self criticism is just as rage enducing as criticism from others. A lot of internal conflicts take place in my life and sometimes they come out - albeit in a very cryptic fashion- in my dreams. One part of me wants to do one thing but another part of me wants to do another. It is like there are two people living inside of me and both are srtiving for dominance.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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gezondheid
50 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 10:14:30
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Dear members,
Good to reflect on the causes of TMS. The werstern way of life is, i think, partly responsible for TMS. But see it this way. We are still partly an animal. Mammals never do as much as we do in a day. We are not totally mammals but a part is. Animals avoid stress at once. We are constantly under pressure. That's the world we have made. Our natural speed of living is about 6 times slower as our regular speed during the day. These are very simple things with (in my opinion) great consequences) . There are of course more causes but this a crucial one.
Always at it these western people.
Greetings from Europe
move-on |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2007 : 19:59:01
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Great thread. I've recently recognized a huge cultural obsession that certainly strives to add to my TMS pressures. Society's insidious belief that no one is good enough as they are. That we never have enough time, money, love, happiness, sex appeal, intelligence, youth or wisdom ... no one is EVER enough without change. We must constantly seek outside ourselves for more things, changes, or feelings to validate our sense of worth as well as others' perceptions of us.
The past couple months I realize this is a load of rubbish, but unfortunately, these beliefs perpetuate in most every magazine, television show, billboard, friendship, cookie, or lipstick tube.
Penny
>|< Penny
"Feeling will get you closer to the truth of who you are than thinking."
~ Eckhart Tolle
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 07:55:30
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Internal rage over the fact we are getting older is a factor one may want to consider when examining their internal rage. I am well aware of it in my own life even though I am only 43. This culture glorifies youth and sex appeal, placing an unattainable standard on us, and this is enraging to the self. We want back what we can no longer have. The gray hairs, the increasing number of wrinkles, the pot belly etc. are a daily reminder to me. If only, I say to myself, I had that youth back I would do this or that, or go there, etc.....
Go take a class at a university and you will feel your age, at least that is my experience.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 08:37:16
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
... Go take a class at a university and you will feel your age, at least that is my experience ...
Sorry for another one of my typically long postings...
This age thing is a big one. It's so permanent, and I spend lots of time ruminating over it too. Mostly because I had always been so active and unstoppable, and now I need to watch every step I take so I don't get "injured" or whatever. I feel like I wasted so much time in my younger days, worrying about this and that, none of it really worth worrying about in retrospect. And there are things I feel like I should have done that, while not impossible, would be so much more difficult for me now. It is infuriating, and enraging, and frightening.
I often have the occasion to be on campus at the university I attended twenty years ago, and it raises my anxiety level just to walk around and be in that neighborhood. It takes me back to where I cannot really go again. I feel a little lost, sad, and envious of all the youth around me. The absolute permanence of it is a little scary. It never bothered me in the least until I started having all the physical symptoms and injuries (psychosomatic or otherwise)
I also get the same reaction when I watch war movies. I know it sounds a little strange. But I spent time in the Army during the first gulf war, and now anytime I watch a movie that has something to do with young 20 somethings off to war to serve their country, I feel like I couldn't do that even if I tried. The military is definitely a place for 20-30 somethings, and 40 is retirement age. Not that I enjoyed the Army in any way, I really disliked the experience. But the idea that I've forever moved past that, makes me feel a little unsettled and anxious, much like being on campus at the university.
So I guess the lesson from all this is that while 40 is not 20, it is also true that 40 is not 60, 70, 80, or 90 either. So unlike my 20's and 30's, when I spent so much time fretting over things that I really don't think are so important now... I'm going to try to live my life NOW given what I DO have, so that when I am 70 I will not look back to my 40's and say "boy, if only I were only 40 again, I'd stop worrying about all those dumb things and get busy living!" Instead I want to say "I lived my 40's to their fullest, and did my best along every step of the way"
Maybe we need a new thread to discuss the "age" issue, it's a huge one, at least for me. There also seems to be a big "40 transition" for so many people, and I wonder what the age profile is for the TMS help forum members. Are there many 20 somethings? 30 somethings? It is interesting to me that TMS correlates with reaching the 40s for so many people (??) Some a little earlier, some a little later. But on average it seems to be the time when the physical limitations and the mortality of the body first becomes so apparent... just a little frightening. |
Edited by - AnthonEE on 10/10/2007 09:08:35 |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 10:40:58
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Here is an unusual take on TMS.
Like the inhabitants of Plato's cave, as described in book 7 of The Republic (http://www.constitution.org/pla/repub_07.htm), we constantly mistake appearance for reality. In Plato's allegory, the imprisoned cave inhabitants think the things they see on the wall (the shadows) are real and, as a result of their bondage and limited vision, they would know nothing of the real causes of the shadows. It seems to me that TMS, in an odd sort of way, is like that. They can only see the shadow- in this case the shadow being the pain- but are unable to see the object casting the shadow. In fact, the cave inhabitants are not even aware there is an object casting the shadow because, as I stated above, they mistake the shadow for reality. Only when the inhabitants of the cave are freed from their captivity can they then turn their heads around and see the real objects that are casting the shadow in the first place.
The real object, in the case of someone suffering from TMS, is the repressed emotions while the shadow is their pain. When they see the reality that the shadow is merely being cast from the object, then the nature of reality unfolds. In a metaphorical sense, what a TMS sufferer has to do is turn their heads (ie stop looking and concentrating on the pain- the shadow) and, for the first time, see the cause or source of the shadows. A full understanding then unfolds as to the source or origin of these shadows.
Here is a visual of Plato's cave here: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/gnl2/PlatoCave.jpg
And here is even a clearer one:
http://home.lbcc.cc.ca.us/~mlawrence/Phil%206/platosCave%20copy.jpg
In Plato's allegory, there are puppeteers who are standing between the fire and the cave dwellers and they are holding up objects to cast shadows for the cave dwellers to behold. The cave dwellers do not possess the ability to turn their heads and look behind them. I liken the fire unto one's repressed emotions, the puppeteers to the brain and, as I stated above, the shadows to the pain.
Am I whacking out here?
PS: One can listen to the allegory here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux4mcnFC_-c&mode=related&search=
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 10/11/2007 10:15:00 |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 11:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
Here is an unusual take on TMS ... Am I whacking out here?
No not at all! I think it's a really great metaphor. I particularly like the second jpg image of the cave. But one thing to be careful about, in my view, is that one must consider that certain physical processes can ALSO cast shadows on the wall of the cave, for us to behold side by side with those cast by the repressed emotions. The skill we and our doctors must acquire is how to identify the real ones and separate out the impostors, and treat them as TMS.
It would be an error of logic and a bad mistake to assume that just because repressed emotions can cast these images, that then precludes a real problem from also casting an image. Clearly if you get hurt, it is going to hurt. Again, the art is knowing how to separate these images. Sarno says we must rule out physical disease. We cannot call everything TMS, that would be "whacking out".
I love the metaphor, and I propose the shadows comprise "real" ones accompanied by "impostors" (TMS) fabricated by the mindbody for some mysterious purpose.
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 16:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by AnthonEE
This age thing is a big one. It's so permanent, and I spend lots of time ruminating over it too. Mostly because I had always been so active and unstoppable, and now I need to watch every step I take so I don't get "injured" or whatever. I feel like I wasted so much time in my younger days, worrying about this and that, none of it really worth worrying about in retrospect. And there are things I feel like I should have done that, while not impossible, would be so much more difficult for me now. It is infuriating, and enraging, and frightening.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Collectively--and some individuals--people accept the belief that we are not enough as we currently are. It's like a religion. A huge step in my recovery is the newfound believing that I am enough. That I am ok ... completely ok as I am right now. 125 lbs of me, squishy tummy, laugh and cry lines, grey hairs, freckles, cellulite, droopy boobs, and all; a body/brain combo that often chooses physical pain over negative emotion. I accept me and say bol*&%ks to what most everything and everyone else professes as truth.
I am perfectly imperfect!
I hope I don't sound over zealous or obnoxious, but I'm trying to emphasize my point. Renouncing cultural defininitions has freed me from constant failure.
Anthonee, Why do you choose to let these beliefs stay with you, when they make you feel lousy about yourself in every aspect? (You don't need to asnswer this here, but I offer this question for your consideration. I asked myself the same thing and started to examine the exact "why" behind my self esteem issues.)
Penny |
Edited by - Penny on 10/10/2007 17:12:34 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2007 : 08:40:03
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This is going to sound silly to those who are older, but even turning 26 can trigger some fears in the 'getting older' vein. When I had my birthday this year I definitely felt that a little bit. Our culture really does start the aging fear early.
'Course, then someone mistakes me for a college student and I remember that getting older is probably still better for a while yet. :)
Penny, your post is exactly what I've been working on too, in general. That I have the right to be the full range of who I am and I'm all right.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Sarno and Western Values and Aging
