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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2007 : 11:03:06
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Hi everybody,
I've been reading the posts on this forum, and all the physical symptoms make me feel like I'm reading a biography of my own life for the last couple years. It's almost hard to believe. But one thing that really strikes me, is the repeated connection I see between anxiety and TMS. I wonder, of all the members on this forum, what percentage suffers with some anxiety disorder?
My story, briefly, is this. About 2yrs ago I suffered a terrible bout with benzodiazapine withdrawal. It caused tremendous anxiety and panic, as well as many other scary physiological symptoms. I have NO doubt my experience was a direct result of withdrawal from medication. The reason the medication was prescribed was because, being rather high strung and of the TMS-like personality, I tend to worry myself awake at night. So the doc gave me this medication to help relax and to help with sleep. It was a terrible mistake. It took many difficult months, maybe even a full year to recover from the paralyzing anxiety that resulted from withdrawal. While I am admittedly high strung, I'd never been anxious like that before this episode, and had been a very strong athlete as well. And since then I've gradually succumbed to many of the physical TMS symptoms that are described on this forum, with remarkable similarity to the experiences of others. And now the symptoms tend to feed the anxiety in a vicious cycle. Of course doctors can find nothing physically wrong with me, yet I feel like I'm almost unable to carry on with a normal life at most times because of this pain or that pain, and what it all means.
What I'm interested to hear from others, is whether it is possible that anxiety itself can be at the root of many of these problems? Is this why SSRI's are not inconsistent with TMS work, because they help people to recover the equilibrium of the autonomic system AND to get on with the emotional work they require? How many people here suffer from anxiety over and above what would generally be considered normal and healthy? Has anybody had anxiety "induced" as a result of medication, cannabis, or other cause not directly related to repressed emotion? And has TMS followed? I'm really interested to hear what others might think about all this.
I'm not trying to turn the tables and doubt that repressed emotion and rage are often the primary issues, only whether artificially inducing anxiety by some other cause can also add to or initiate a TMS outcome? It seems very consistent with my experience that anxiety, whatever the root cause, might be a powerful agent at work here...
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Edited by - AnthonEE on 09/20/2007 11:04:31 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 13:02:56
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You should read the section in MBP about the connection between anxiety and TMS. Short answer is that anxiety is another form of distraction, a TMS equivalent. In my experience it does become a secondary cause of further symptoms, because it's precisely fear of the pain and worrying about the pain that keep us in thrall to the pain, but I'm not sure that anxiety can itself induce development of true TMS -- it's just an equivalent that can coexist or trade off with the pain. I have been very anxious for most of my life and have come to the conclusion that it is not usually an underlying emotion. I think it is a distraction from other emotions -- fear and anger, mainly.
I'm not sure that one can categorically say that SSRIs are compatible with TMS treatment. If they help a person who is otherwise paralyzed by anxiety or depression com to a point where they can deal with the underlying issues, then they're compatible, but if they're used to banish the symptoms so as not to deal with them, then they're not so compatible.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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csmoon
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 17:23:52
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I think the fact that Dr. Sarno references TMS-prone patients, at least in one survey, as having at one time or another suffered stress maladies like hives and irritable bowel, makes it clear that this is a condition of the nervous system, just like any functional illness. I have had both anxiety symptoms (big time!) and back pain. The effect is the same, as far as grabbing the attention. I worked through the anxiety by ingoring the symptoms and carrying onw with my life. This strategy is identical to what Dr. Sarno advocates for TMS patients, only he tells them to "think psychological." There are hordes here and on review sites for the books that overcame pain simply by learning that it wasn't structural, losing their fear, and going on with life. I see the effect of dealing with pain the same as with somatization symptoms.
Incidentally, there is a letter from a psychologist who suggests just that in the back of Healing Back Pain. He also wrote a book that takes an anxiety-based tack toward cure of back pain. It is called Back Sense. You can do a search on the forum for his name, Ronald Siegel. He even likens the effect of back pain to agoraphobia. I thnk it's a fascinating read, but I don't know the value yet, as I am still struggling with neck pain.
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 17:28:03
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I had psoriasis and asthma as a kid. Irritable bowel syndrome at 14. Anxiety attacks and depression starting at 17. Diagnosed with OCD at 21.And finally chronic pain at 27-33.
With all of that, anxiety was always the major factor. I don't believe that anxiety is a distraction though. Just a fear based reaction from faulty reasoning or viewing a perceived threat. I believe it is more of a symptom of something larger, but could also be a mental form of TMS, who knows. |
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karkar892
4 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 19:03:30
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I am in the same boat. Many physical symptoms of TMS but also a life-long history of anxiety and now panic attacks. I recently "discovered" in therapy that I haven't actually allowed myself to experience anger in a very long time. I believe that anxiety and panic is just a different manifestation of TMS. A couple of weeks after I started therapy for anxiety and started to get a hold of it, I started to have panic attacks. A month later I had another "back attack". As I recognize a symptom as TMS, it morphs into another manifestation. I believe that Sarno makes this argument (although not extensively) in his books.
During the last panic attack, my instinct was to use relaxation techniques to calm myself. The panic kept coming. I had the idea to start thinking about what could be making me angry. I was focused on the issues in my life that were stressful and I went through them in my head. The panic subsided. In my mind, this is proof that the panic attack was really an attack of TMS. |
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justme
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 19:12:23
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I have suffered from anxiety my whole life, too. In fact benzos are the only thing that help my anxiety or TMS symptoms. And, I have never had problems with withdrawal from them. On the other hand, I have had SSRI's increase my anxiety and produce TMS symptoms in me - like heart palpitations.
My mom also suffered from anxiety. Could be I inherited it or could be I learned it from her. Looking at her, though, I would say she was trained to repress a lot of anger. It definately was not socially acceptable in the Catholic faith. In fact, as a child brought up in the Catholic faith I was taught that to be angry was a sin. Go figure.
JustMe |
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renee
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 20:59:16
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| I too have suffered severe anxiety and panic attacks for the past eight years. The panic came on as soon as I lost the distraction and fear of back pain after learning about TMS. I had anxiety so bad I feared leaving the house. I am now able to cope and do more but still continue to struggle. |
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miche
Canada
283 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2007 : 22:04:53
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Anxiety and fibro came together at a very stressful time in my life, eventually the panic attacks stopped when the stress abated somewhat, the fibro stayed, I believe that fibro is total body bracing with anxiety at it's source, I have two sons, one is calm the other takes after me, gets anxious under stress, had tms, which he was able to control with Sarno and meditation, yoga etc.,
You said that you were addicted to benzos, if you don't mind my asking were you on a high dosage? the reason I asked is that I take a 0.5 ativan maybe once a week when the pain keeps me from sleeping but I was always afraid of addiction and do not know how little it may take to get to that point with benzos. |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 10:55:36
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| In my experience, most people with TMS have anxiety in some form or another, though they may not even be aware of it (or able to tolerate the idea that they are anxious). I usually say that it's "related to stress", which is easier to handle for most folks. |
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cfhunter
119 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 12:57:36
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Ocd and anxiety here.
all my life.
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csmoon
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 14:26:12
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The more I think about this, the more I think they may be different, but the same. In other words, one gives you a pounding heart, churning gut, the runs and panic attacks. The other just hurts all the time, but they can certainly occur together, a nasty cocktail to be sure. I have been thinking about this for a couple of weeks after reading Sarno's book. He obviously thinks pain is a very separate, distinct entity. I don't know whether to agree or disagree, but it sure is interesting. I came across this thread after searching on anxiety last night. There are many others, but this one sort of goes to the heart of your question.
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2102 |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 16:03:03
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I can categorically tell you that anxiety is a TMS equivalent.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind on this.
When my back pain subsided completely, it was replaced by anxiety for the last year and a half.
This is how I have absolutel proof it is an equivalent - literally the unconcious manipulates the brain seratonin levels.
I went to Rome to spend some time with my mother and my sister and her family. I live in the States and my family lives in London. I have not spent that much time with them in a long time. As the week went on, out of the blue, i started to experience some old emotions of jealousy and anger towards my mum. Suddenly, I was in the airport on my way back to the States and my back went out - major sciatica. At the same time, a strange sense of happiness and calm came over me. I remember feeling completely different - as if I had had a brain lobotomy. It was so weird. I realize now that I had had anxiety and it has been replaced by the back pain.
I managed within 2 days to get rid of the back pain and what happened. That feeling of constant worrying returned.
Now - tell me that isn't TMS in action?
I then went on a very very low dose of anti-anxiety medication. 5 days later, i got a terrible sinus infection which later turned into pneumonia. I was very sick for 3 weeks.
So - what now? I am returning to the TMS expert psychologist. I have to! I know logically that I have extreme rage towards my mom and dad but I need to learn how to retrain my unconscious to stop causing all these symptoms.
I am absolutely sure that depression and anxiety are equivalents - they are a reaction by the unconscious to a terrible build up of rage. They are just distractions - just like the back pain |
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csmoon
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 18:04:06
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| So Suz, are you saying you now think that back pain is an anxiety symptom or is it just the same mechanism? Did you treat your anxiety doing TMS work or did you stray into the CBT, more modern treatments? I got over my anxiety rather quickly (a few months) and had never heard of Sarno at the time. This makes me wonder if I treated all the symptoms of anxiety or if I left one (pain) on the field when I broke free from therapy. I didn't really get much out of therapy. Reading helped more than anything, and sitting in group meetings was awesome. Just curious. If you can beat back both pain and anxiety using Sarno's system, more people should know about this, because people all over the world suffer from anxiety for much of their life if they don't treat it correctly. Perhaps that happened to me? |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 21:18:59
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| I also noticed that when pain subsides my anxiety goes through the roof. In the past my pain and my "OCD" would switch like clockwork. If my pain went away, my intrusive thoughts would come in. Pain comes on, intrusive thoughts go away for a year. It's like the mind can't handle too many equivalents at once. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 12:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by miche
You said that you were addicted to benzos, if you don't mind my asking were you on a high dosage? the reason I asked is that I take a 0.5 ativan maybe once a week when the pain keeps me from sleeping but I was always afraid of addiction and do not know how little it may take to get to that point with benzos.
The key is to use it "on occasion", NOT continuously for any length of time. I took 0.5mg Klonopin (minimum dose) for 14days, each night before bed. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that would constitute an addiction. But I did notice that after about 7-10 days it started to lose its effectiveness. This is the sign that the body has adapted to compensate for the medication. Then when you stop taking it you rebound very hard in the opposite direction. It's terrible. I later learned that a small percentage of people do become "dependent" on benzo in as little as a week or two. Apparently I'm one of the "lucky" ones. Not fun. Not fun at all. Autonomic system goes into overload in a bad way, so bad I even had temporary hair loss. The anxiety was paralyzing. I had never had anxiety before this episode, not counting the normal healthy type of anxiety that all people get from time to time. There's no convincing me otherwise that what was causing my extreme anxiety at that time (probably benzo withdrawal, but maybe repressed rage, whatever) was also wreaking absolute HAVOC on my physical body too. No doubt. I can still see it in pictures that were taken of me around that time period.
So I just finished MBP book, and I understand clearly what Sarno is saying about anxiety and depression as TMS equivalents. From my own experience it's hard to accept it uncondionally in this order, because as hard as I try, I cant help but turn the equation upside down, and think of TMS like an autonomic overload equivalent... if that makes any sense. This view would seem sort of consistent with the term Dr Brady has chosen for this syndrome, Autonomic Overload Syndrome (AOS), even though he too uses repressed rage as the underlying cause like Sarno. Anyway, far be it from me to question the good doctors, but still it seems feasible that the autonomic system can get overloaded in several ways, either from repressed rage, or from things like bad medication, genetics(?), etc. And either way, it comes out as anxiety, depression, and a myriad of nasty physical symtoms like TMS, Fibro, etc. These things all seem inextricably linked, and I for one am absolutely convinced of the mind body connection. Whether addressing repressed rage is the answer, or maybe something else like learning relaxation techniques, yoga or whatever, is still something I personally need to come to terms with. But the mindbody connection is very real. No doubt at all.
All the comments here are really interesting to me, and I appreciate the feedback. Seems to be a profound connection between anxiety/depression and the physical symptoms of TMS, fibro, etc. Of course the postings in this thread are going to be biased toward a connection because those without the connection might be less likely to post. But still, seems to be for many of us a very fundamental connection. Very interesting.
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Edited by - AnthonEE on 09/23/2007 12:16:36 |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 12:27:09
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quote:
Originally posted by csmoon
... but this one sort of goes to the heart of your question.
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2102
Hits the nail SQUARE on the head!! And not an inconsistent interpretation of Sarno/Sopher (in my opinion). What may be different is how to get at or treat the root cause, it may vary a bit from one individual to another. For so many on this forum, Sarno is the answer. I Hope it is for me too. Regardless, the mindbody connection is as clear as daylight. Thanks much for the link. |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 13:40:29
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On a side note,
I took about three weeks and I think I am in the final stages of withdrawal from a weeks and a half's worth of Benzos. Don't ask me how or why, but my whole BEING flipped out like never before. I thought I was good with Benzos, not this time. And this wasn't TMS, I was literally drunk feeling for two weeks, and felt like I was developing Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
I think I'm over the effects though. My walking feels more balanced and my eyes don't have black circles under them anymore. My eyes were black for 3 weeks. I looked like I was poisoned or something. I felt like I was sinking into anything I sat on, slept on or leaned on.
That's the best I can describe it. It was a 3 week long nightmare. That on top of my usual TMS symptoms was insanity. Be careful with Benzos is the moral of the story. |
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csmoon
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2007 : 13:16:28
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Results of a cursory search:
Fear = 73 pages of threads
Anger = 63 pages of threads
Rage = 75 pages of threads
Some of this unbalance on the part of rage may be attributed to Sarno-speak, but I found it very telling that the two are almost perfectly balanced, which means they have to be closely related in the minds and hearts of those afflicted with chronic pain syndromes.
To be sure, this type of search eliminates euphemisms and synonyms, like fright, frustration, irritation, etc. But it's interesting, no?
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2007 : 18:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by csmoon
To be sure, this type of search eliminates euphemisms and synonyms, like fright, frustration, irritation, etc. But it's interesting, no?
I agree, the search is a tough one to do properly. But still very interesting. There are also 43 pages of threads that come up on a search for "anxiety".
Sarno makes no bones about it, in his theory anxiety is a TMS equivalent, and repressed unconscious rage is the root cause of both. He says that Stanley Coen at Columbia turned turned him on to this idea that "the symptoms of TMS are not anxiety equivalents but [rather] manifestations of an avoidance process". The context in which he presents this suggests there has been a large body of previous thought that suggested TMS symptoms are anxiety equivalents. This is how it has always felt for me, like the anxiety came first, and subsequently TMS symptoms. My experience with acute anxiety was precipitated so suddenly and in such coincidence with benzo withdrawal, that it's difficult to imagine it was caused by repressing unconscious emotions. I suppose it's possible, just seems a little odd. So turning things around in the way Sarno teaches will be a little difficult for me to come to terms with. That's why I have such in interest to know how many others feel like they've got an underlying anxiety disorder, and if it came before TMS symptoms. Or if the anxiety was precipitated in a way other than repressed unconscious emotions (like drugs, etc).
I think either viewpoint is consistent with a mindbody connection, and maybe even with Sarno's treatment plan. I suppose I'm just struggling to recast this theory into a form that my overly analytical and critical mind can accept. I think I'm getting there. Also getting ready to start reading the divided mind. I hope it covers these issues more than mind body prescription.
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 04:12:54
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The Divided Mind is way more in depth Anthonee. I have the Audio CD of it.
My theory is that things like drug abuse, alcoholism, addictive activities, internet usage, etc., are all forms of diversion from the true self. A way of looking over or not addressing the feeling that something is "wrong" in one's mind. So Sarno has something with the diversion theory. Back in the "old days" people didn't really have time to divert themselves. If they did, they basically died of starvation or thirst.Their survival was their diversion.
I think as our society has more free time to divert itself with addictions(internet included) you will see more cases of psychosomatic disorders. |
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Link to TMS and Anxiety Disorders?
