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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
 Posted - 08/10/2007 : 10:45:47
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As I asked before Shary, if you don't believe Dr. Sarno then why remain on a message board that was specifically set up to discuss ways to implement his program? You cannot accuse me of doing a disservice for promoting Dr. Sarno's work; a man who has dedicated 57 years of his life to medical practice, discovered groundbreaking treatment methods and has relieved over 11,000 people of their pain symptoms.
In fact, I accuse you of doing the disservice as you are spreading doubt in the minds of those who are trying to implement Dr. Sarno's work into their lives. If a person does not recover right away that does not invalidate Dr. Sarno's work. It means they either have not fully believed in the work or they have some really tough issues that they are dealing with but facing much internal resistance. But then someone comes along and says Dr. Sarno's work is all crap because they personally did not recover so they blame Dr. Sarno instead of where the blame really belongs.
Yes, I come off as a hardliner, but I cannot afford to have doubts enter my mind as doubt is an impediment to recovery. I have read all of Dr. Sarno's books 4 times as well as a lot of outside related reading. I am a voracious bookworm. You think that people on this board have not shopped around for other modalities? You are wrong on that score. Many of us have tried everything in the book with no relief. What you have used as a treatment program is, in my opinion, and based upon my understanding of psychosomatic conditions, a placebo as there is an emphasis on the body. For you the placebo worked and congratulations on that. Placebos work on about 30% of the population. I sincerely wish that you remain pain free but I am sorry to say that I doubt you will based on my understanding of the symptom imperative as outlined in The Divided Mind.
Now people may ask me if I have recovered and I have to say no, I have not. That does not invalidate the work in the least. It is me that is the problem and not the work.
Can we now get off this unproductive topic and get back to the real issues without driving more people from the board? THE PAIN IS DUE TMS, A BENIGN CONDITION THAT IS INITIATED MY THE UNCONSCIOUS MIND TO DRAW ATTENTION AWAY FROM PAINFUL REPRESSED EMOTIONS AS A RESULT OF PAST TRAUMA, CURRENT STRESSORS AND PERSONALITY TRAITS.
Now, I invite board members to discuss these issues and stop the intellectual masturbation.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." It's all you need to know in order to recover. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 10:53:29
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Thanks everyone for some truly insightful responses--sorry im late in responding (gotta sleep sometime).
Floorten: thanks for responding. I agree with virtually everything you said, i think you hit the nail on the head with your #3. It's the same conclusion that many of us have come to independently, so obviously worthy of consideration.
As floorten points out, our question come largely from experiences with "TMS equivalents" (man, i wish i just had good-ol back pain right now!) that don't act the same way as 'traditional' TMS. For example, it's easy to 'challenge' a sore elbow by playing tennis--but how do you challenge an allergy, or a wart?
The idea of 'equivalents' is relatively new to 83 year old Sarno (one reason i much prefer the term AOS) so don't expect him to enlighten us on this subject--the new generation of doctors (and patients) must do this.
Shary, i say 'Amen' but i will point out that having been treated persoanlly by Sarno, he most definitely is not in it 'for the money'. The guy would be a billionaire if he were--he doesn't even have a website!
Frankly, im amused when people defend the theory by noting that Sarno is an MD with 1000s of patients. If that's so important, what about the 1000s of MDs with millions of patients who would disagree with him?
Dave: i respect your view, and am very appreciative of your responses. Here is a simple question: take those examples in TDM etc that show the minority case of someone uncovering the 'exact' cause of the TMS--child abuse for example. If this emotion was so dangerous--why does the uncovering not only lead to a cure in TMS, but also an increased well-being of the patient????????
As an aside, Dave, my mother died of lung cancer. She never smoked. My father smoked 3 packs a day and he's perfectly healthy. So i don't think your tobacco example was "extreme" I think it is quite possible for one to use a TMS-based theory to suggest that smokers actually share the genetic attribute of being prone to stress-related illness such as cancer. Not so far-fetched, if you buy TMS. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 10:59:44
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drziggles; i saw your post after i posted my last.
That was brilliant--exactly what i have been trying to point out, but you did it for me much more clearly!  |
Edited by - stanfr on 08/10/2007 11:35:10 |
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Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 11:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
Yes, I come off as a hardliner, but I cannot afford to have doubts enter my mind as doubt is an impediment to recovery.
Then why do you keep returning to this thread? Ask yourself why you feel the need to respond to a conversation you don't want to be a part of. |
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Shary
147 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 11:24:14
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Ah, but I have recovered, Shawn, whereas you have not--and isn't that the whole point? I did so with (gasp!) a combination of mind and body work...or maybe I would have recovered regardless. I have no idea. But the fact remains that I DID recover.
No hostilities intended, Shawn. Have a good one...and do try to loosen up a little. As Bourne would say, You look tired. Try to get some rest.
Thanks, Dr. Z., for putting the whole ball of wax into some kind of coherent perspective. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 11:39:24
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quote:
Dave: i respect your view, and am very appreciative of your responses. Here is a simple question: take those examples in TDM etc that show the minority case of someone uncovering the 'exact' cause of the TMS--child abuse for example. If this emotion was so dangerous--why does the uncovering not only lead to a cure in TMS, but also an increased well-being of the patient????????
Again, I think this is a misunderstanding, or perhaps it's a matter of a lack of precision in Sarno's understanding/communication of the issue. After all, he is an MD, not a psychologist.
The emotion is believed by a part of our psyche to be dangerous. Sarno never states that the emotion is dangerous, just that our mind believes it to be. My earlier reply to floorten covers more or less how I think of this: we develop a false self in response to dysfunctional dynamics in our early environment that say that some or all emotions are not okay and must not be shown or discussed. These 'rules' are usually learned mostly unconsciously, so we are not even completely aware of them. It is this part of us that represses because it truly believes that to feel these emotions would jeopardize our survival -- which may have been true in our dysfunctional environment, but it's not necessarily true now that we are adults.
In fact, the inner child/our true self does desire to feel these emotions, to integrate and become whole (this can be seen as equivalent to Sarno's "the repressed emotions strive to become conscious"). When this can occur, the person feels more whole, and liberated from the false self -- thus, they have greater well-being. I have actually experienced some of this (though for me it is not one big thing but many smaller things, all related to a small nomber of core issues) and can attest that while there is a part of me that greatly fears confronting and processing these emotions, I do feel much better each time I am able to contact and experience them. For me this is part of my larger emotional healing, since I've been physically 'healed' for more than a year now.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 11:56:45
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Shary:
As Dave pointed out, the forum is here to HELP people trying to implement Dr Sarno's theories into their lives. NOT give them more reason to doubt. The website is even called TMS HELP. Not TMSDoubt.com or SlamSarno.com. In my short time here, I get the feeling that the overall intent is to help.
Ask anyone who has benefited by Sarno's knowledge if Sarno is a sham. I for one can say that despite not knowing everything about HOW it works - it worked for me. And other than buying his books and a number of others by Sopher, Amir, Brady and Schechters audio - I've spent under $100 bucks. NONE of these people are getting rich by teaching a treatment method where basically the patient cures themselves and doesn't need costly medical procedures.
You guys think $1000 is a lot? Have you seen the bills for back surgery? Spinal injections? Traction? Chiropractic care? Massage? Special chairs? I could go on and on...
Personally I've shared this info with about 8 close friends. 2 of whom were helped significantly. The others didn't crack the book and admitted it was just too "out there". That's a major reason why it doesn't work for everyone.
I've been in the chronic pain forums in Yahoo groups and all they do is talk about injections, surgery, medicine and the other normal treatment methods. It's amazing how much of this you hear in those other back pain groups online. "I hope my doctor finds a medication that works this time". Or "I sure hope my surgery works this time." There is NO personal ownership. It's always THEY need to fix me and get rid of my pain. It's quite depressing actually. And when you try to post Sarno info to the forum or email these people directly - the response is like running full steam into a brick wall. Why? I have no idea.
Shary, clearly you haven't studied the TMS material if you are questioning why mainstream medicine doesn't buy into this. Sarno points them all out numerous times. If you're interested - keep reading and you'll find the answers to most of the questions you've posed. If you're not interested, please stop slamming the good Doctors work.
Why does he pre-screen to get 80% success? Because he's not going to waste his time or their money if someone is too close minded to even give this a shot. You can't force someone to do the work and cure themselves.
And let's not forget greed when you say Sarno's in it for the money. Is it Sarno who's greedy? Or the surgeons who put millions of patients a year through often unnecessary surgery on a "hunch" that the spine is causing the pain. And then repeat 2nd and 3rd surgeries when their initial hunch didn't pan out. Again, read the chronic pain forums out there for proof that this goes on all day - every day.
If a surgeon recommends surgery - ask him how sure he is that you will have 100% relief forever. Um, uh,...Um... is the closest answer you'll get.
A 100 billion dollar pain management industry would crumble if the world instantly bought into this diagnosis and did the personal work necessary to implement it's treatment. Sadly, it's never going to happen.
Are there complications where it doesn't work for everyone? Absolutely. The only people who succeed are those who commit to the process. 98% of the population is either too offended by the "it's in your mind" theory or too scared to realize that they personally hold the keys to unlocking the pain and finding a cure. People want someone else to "fix me" because "I'm broken". This emotional work is too hard for the majority.
Is the hard work worth it? Absolutely.
My 2 cents...
Dan |
Edited by - Webdan65 on 08/12/2007 20:09:14 |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 12:48:40
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One analogy on the concept of pre-screening.
A personal trainer should always have success in helping people lose weight and get in better shape. However, if they talked to a prospective client who refused to eat better and won't exercise because they don't think that exercise and diet will help them lose weight - why take the client?
Sarno screening out the person not open enough to believe in the process and do the emotional work required to get better is the same exact thing as a personal trainer saying "I can't help you" to the person not willing to exercise or eat well.
Wouldn't you prescreen? |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 13:05:36
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ACL: thanks for the response. I do understand the distinction, and perhaps i was too quick to pose that question. I just think the explanation is too conveniently formulated in response to the problem of why the mind creates unbearable suffering as a means of avoiding those emotions--it's just troublesome to me, that's all.
Webdan: Don't know if you include me among the 'naysayers', but if so, please understand this: i spent over 700$ for my treatment with Sarno, and it was worth every penny! The guy deserves the nobel prize--nuff said. I have personally endured insults from numerous people when i told them about TMS theory. That being said, i don't see anything wrong with questioning some of the principles, especially when following them religiously doesn't always work. Im sorry i called the topic 'is Sarno Wrong', what i should have called it is "a critcal analysis and proposal to expand/ellucidate certain aspects of Sarno's theory" but that was too long to fit  |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 13:21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by drziggles
One hole in the theory of distraction in TMS in my mind involves minor symptoms like acne or allergies. For most people, these problems are a minor annoyance, and not enough to pose any serious distraction from emotional issues. What is their purpose?
I will pose a hypothetical question to the die-hards here. Let's say at some point the underlying biological mechanism for TMS is found, and it could be treated with a pill, rather than through the process of education and dealing with underlying repressed emotions. How would that make you feel? Discuss.
What you asked about is hardly a hole in the theory in my opinion (why do you assume that?). Clearly severe acne and allergies can be distractions, but even a low level of skin problems and allergies may force you to spend a lot of time everyday thinking about how to 'maintain' them. Personally, I had low levels of asthma and intermittent eczema for 6 years and almost everyday I would think about being careful to moisturize, or going out of my way to avoid cold and dust for my 'asthma' It was certainly a distraction.
About your pill question -- i would be pissed. First, i would have the same doubts i have today about treating depression with pills. It seems the medical community is convinced about that too. Secondly, I would much rather do the 'TMS work' because in the end I benefited from it emotionally, even if it were possible to cure things with a pill (so I guess I'm not entirely sure what you mean by cure. Are you saying the pill would give the same emotional benefits of a TMS cure?). |
Edited by - ndb on 08/10/2007 13:24:18 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 13:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Shary
But I also think he's capitalizing on an oversimplified 'cure' that offers too much in the way of hope and not enough in the way of lasting recovery.
That's your opinion based on your experience. Don't generalize. The fact is that thousands of his patients have achieved lasting recovery. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 13:33:47
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quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
Here is a simple question: take those examples in TDM etc that show the minority case of someone uncovering the 'exact' cause of the TMS--child abuse for example. If this emotion was so dangerous--why does the uncovering not only lead to a cure in TMS, but also an increased well-being of the patient????????
The symptoms existed to keep those emotions from reaching consciousness. The unconscious mind thought they were too dangerous. When the emotions reached consciousness despite the brain's attempt to supress them, there was no longer a need for the strategy. The emotions were felt despite the distraction. So the distraction ceases, since it failed to serve its purpose.
quote:
As an aside, Dave, my mother died of lung cancer. She never smoked. My father smoked 3 packs a day and he's perfectly healthy. So i don't think your tobacco example was "extreme" I think it is quite possible for one to use a TMS-based theory to suggest that smokers actually share the genetic attribute of being prone to stress-related illness such as cancer. Not so far-fetched, if you buy TMS.
There is actually scientific proof of genetic predisposition to certain types of cancer. Some people will never get lung cancer even if they smoke 3 packs a day for 50 years.
I believe mankind has not even scratched the surface of the power and capabilities of the brain. Thoughts and emotions can affect our bodies in ways we cannot fathom. As an example, my grandmother was diagnosed with liver cancer and probably could have lived another couple of years. I'm convinced that her mind accelerated the process of death, not wanting to be a burden on her loved ones. She died one week later. |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 13:38:38
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Stanfr:
I'll reply here to keep my "survey" clear from debate. And believe me, it wasn't you I was calling out as a naysayer. But if you consider yourself to be, perhaps THAT is why you have less than stellar results this time around.
You say that 10 years ago you had great success. Since then your perception is that TMS theory has changed much. Or that some of it is wrong. Regardless whether it changed or not, you are not achieving the desired results this time around.
Why?
Is it because the diagnosis and process to cure yourself has changed? Or, just YOUR view and implementation of the process has changed? Hmmm...
I guess I'm just saying it's possible that your over-analysis on whether or not the theory has changed may have put enough doubt into your mind to cause your lack of success recently.
I say - go back to your roots and see what you did differently the first time around. Maybe your belief was more simple and pure. See if you can get into that same frame of mind again without over analyzing the theory behind it all.
Personally, any time I get back to the fundamentals and eliminate complexities and over analysis, I get much better results. TMS, my golf swing, anything.
So ask yourself if it is better to "stir the pot" and be "right" about TMS theory changing? OR should you be spending the time doing the emotional work necessary and getting yourself feeling better? Shouldn't the latter be your priority?
Stop the internal debate - get back to the fundamentals. Focus on your emotions, not on the theory. It worked the first time - why question it?
Hope this helps.
Dan |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 14:02:01
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It's the nature of that 'danger' that Sarno readily admits has yet to be determined. My only point was that maybe the original assumtion is incorrect, thereby eliminating the need to determine the "why" in this case.
quote:
I believe mankind has not even scratched the surface of the power and capabilities of the brain.
Im definitely with you on that one, Dave!
Webdan: thanks for the thoughtful response. You may be right that my over-analysis is a problem-- though I will say that i had the same misgivings and view about TMS when i first 'cured' it. Unfortunately most of what has been written about TMS is focused on neck/back pain, not any of the "equivalents". Thats a big reason i went to this forum for help. When i personally asked Sarno about psoriasis, he was quick to tell me about how much success he's had with his dermatology patients (and incidentally chastised me about calling it TMS as opposed to "equivalent") His answer to some of the questions ive posed here was "TMS is a complex, multi-faceted phenmomena...etc etc" OK, fine, so lets explore some of those complexities and maybe we can help solve some of the problems.
Anyhow, Im sorry to abandon my own sinking ship, but im going away for the weekend, and staying away from the flame for now .
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 14:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Shary
Ah, but I have recovered, Shawn, whereas you have not--and isn't that the whole point?
No, it isn't, and if you are going to use reductionist arguments like that then we canot have a real conversation. Some people recover by rolphing also.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." It's all you need to know in order to recover. |
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HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2007 : 09:23:03
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Part of the problem here is the convergence of people who may both HAVE TMS and who also want to engage in intellectual debate and criticism about the theory. This would almost in any other circumstance be healthy...
If Dr. Sarno's idea about the necessity of belief is correct, then this could weaken the belief for many people. Its a bizzare aspect of the whole thing.
Ordinarily the solution would be where Drs. and people who dont have TMS debate the theory. But if one is a patient in pain, and the idea of STRONG belief are true, then doubts raised about the theory could in fact affect the recovery.
I know how that sounds.
But if the theory is true then the above is. TMS is not about the intellect, and would seem to be 180 degrees the opposite of much of teh way I have been raised to believe.
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2007 : 14:12:35
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| I'm glad to see that healthy doubt and debate on Sarno's theory is still tolerated (by most)here. For the past several months I have checked in only occasionally because I felt no new ground was being covered. With this thread, I can see there are some intelligent, thoughtful, free-thinking individuals (stanfr, shary, floorten, alexis,drziggles...) here, and that is refreshing. Keep ut the good work! |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2007 : 14:44:28
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quote:
Originally posted by HellNY
But if one is a patient in pain, and the idea of STRONG belief are true, then doubts raised about the theory could in fact affect the recovery.
Exaclty, and that is why I object to such debates on this board. These debates are counterproductive. Such people are causing more harm than good, but because they are insisting on being right they don't care about other people's suffering and how these discussions feed into people's doubts. In addition, many of these people have actually not read Sarno at all or, if the have, they blame Sarno for their lack of recovery but fail to see that the problem is within themselves, and I speak for myself first and foremost. These people come and go all the time on this board and re-hash the same old tired arguments that would make one gag if they were not so laughable. I hold in great contempt those who don't read, and read carefully, because reading is such a great gift.
Those who are interested in debating should take it elsewhere. As a closet facist, I am a strong believer in censorship for the sake of order.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." It's all you need to know in order to recover. |
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HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2007 : 15:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
I'm glad to see that healthy doubt and debate on Sarno's theory is still tolerated (by most)here. For the past several months I have checked in only occasionally because I felt no new ground was being covered. With this thread, I can see there are some intelligent, thoughtful, free-thinking individuals (stanfr, shary, floorten, alexis,drziggles...) here, and that is refreshing. Keep ut the good work!
Believe it or not, I consider myself an intelligent, thoughtful, free-thinking indivdual. And it is because of those traits that I can actually see a point of view that in almost any other circumstance I would find unacceptable. Namely, that debate over the validity of the theory could in fact affect the recovery of a patient. Its a radical idea, perhaps farcical to some. But if Sarno's theory is true, then this conlcusion is logical.
And again, I know exactly how that sounds. |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 17:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Webdan65
Shary:
Why does he pre-screen to get 80% success?
My understanding is that Sarno also prescreens to make sure that all organic non-TMS related illnesses are not present (e.g. tumors, blood diseases etc.)
I appreciated your other points, Dan.
>|< Penny |
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Parts of TMS theory incomple/mistaken?
