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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2007 : 22:09:20
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Very true, Bert. Which is why i think Dave should use those advertising $ someone suggested to buy a new sports car and trip to Hawaii for all of us TMS sufferors! That would cure me very rapidly, well maybe after a couple weeks on the beach... |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 16:24:16
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I wanted to touch on the topic of faith healing, placebo effects, mindbody healing and TMS treatment. I really don't see these as being the same with the uses with which I am familiar, though others may have a different experience with how these are used:
Faith healing: Most commonly this is used to mean "spiritual" or "god graced" healing from a physically caused illness or a traditional psychological ailment. I don't think in that sense any overlap is ever getting used with TMS treatments. However, the expression is sometimes used, by those who don't believe in this spiritual or godly intervention, to mean something more like placebo or mindbody healing (not to be confused with TMS recovery which is not compatible with all uses of "mindbody" approaches).
Placebo effect: This also actually may mean a couple of things. a) it sometimes means real healing from a traditional physical injury caused by belief in the actual treatment. Or b) it may mean a perceived (but only felt) healing from such a traditional injury/illness caused by the same belief. "A" is actually somewhat akin to some forms of mindbody healing plans, though not all. Any healing is good in this sense, and we don't much care how we got there. "B", on the other hand, is a little akin to TMS, in that it treats sensation, but it's not the same because it doesn't bring about a healthy physical state (or affirm and existing one--depending on how you look at it).
Mindbody healing (as relevant here for purposes of distinction) is real healing -- usually of a real injury -- through psychological means. What is interesting here is that the term isn't always (or usually) used in alignment with Sarno's use. In some cases people mean a real physical injury with physical causes, sometimes mixed or wholly psychological, sometime even entirely psychological with no physical (not even "oxygen deprivation).
TMS recovery -- is recovery from a psychological illness (or state) that is normally believed to be causing a non-brain physical condition (oxygen deprivation etc.) with pain. There are a few related conditions which I throw in the same bag here. It can be confusing that Sarno et al also use the term "mindbody" in a sense that ovelaps the above definition. I don't object to this as it is possible that the shift in paradigm here will make the distinctions less meaningfull, but for now I think we should recognize that there are different interpretations of this along a spectrum, and not all uses of the term reflect as heavy a belief in psychologically caused pain.
So with my understanding of these terms I don't see that TMS methods really much resemble either faith healing or placebo effects. Both of those involve conditions with trauma or illness caused injuries at the site of pain. Faith (or some level of belief) is involved and brings about either a real physical recovery of the non-psychological illness or a perceived reduction in pain (what other kind is there) in the site of an injury without other physical healing.
In TMS the pain is caused by the false belief in a real physical injury, illness or ailment. It is the removal of that false belief (rather, I see it, than the faith in recovery) that reduces or eliminates the pain. That can be looked at a few different ways (addition of faith vs. removal of false belief) and we can argue about levels of belief needed. But the important thing here is that the brain is not just a cure but both the cause and the cure. So the belief (or lack of it) are in fact a treatment in themselves of the actual cause.
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Edited by - alexis on 06/24/2007 16:58:03 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 16:31:55
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Thanks Alexis, all very interesting. My understanding of placebo effects is that they are by definition temporary, hence the term Placebo "effect" rather than placebo "healing."
Is that an incorrect notion on my part? |
Edited by - art on 06/24/2007 19:45:31 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 16:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
There is one point, however, that is essential. If you have a TMS symptom, you cannot attribute that symptom to having any structural cause. You cannot say "it hurts partially because of psychological reasons, but also because my muscle is stiff." It simply does not work. This is circular reasoning and it derails the entire treatment process. Sarno learned this early on in his experience and documents it well.
I would agree with this to a point. The point, however, would be the cases in which the statement you quote may be true.
I'm not saying this is often. I don't even know if it is ever. But I see no reason to believe that it is logically impossible.
If your shoulder can hurt from TMS while your head hurts from a real injury, why can't your lower back hurt from TMS while your mid back hurts from a real injury? If that is possible, why not both pains right in the same place? And wouldn't this, in fact, be consistent with Sarno's thinking about triggers?
If an actual historic injury can be the trigger for TMS pain down the line, why would a TMS personality necessarily wait to latch onto this real injury until the real injury had cleared?
I'm not sure which Sarno sections you are referring to when you say "Sarno documents this well"? The section I think of is when he talks about physical therapy. But the thing with Sarno is he is working with a pretty well selected set of patients. They are already less likely to have real injuries because he is checking that out.
And not only that, he's eliminating those who believe strongly they have physical injuries, who may in fact have a higher probability of actually having such injuries. So this isn't a random sample even of those with TMS. And even that group doesn't have a 100% cure rate on the Sarno method. Who knows at this point if, among the factors behind some people's failure to cure, is the fact that they do also (or even instead of -- see jimmyjimmy's tale -- have a real physical injury).
Now is this the best thing for a person with true pure TMS to hear in the early stages of their recovery and understanding? No, probably not. That gets back to the old tension of what this board, or even Sarno's books, are about. But are these mixed situations possible? I have seen nothing in the literature to suggest they are not or that believing in the existence of mixed conditions is "circular".
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Edited by - alexis on 06/24/2007 17:01:53 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 16:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by art
Thanks Alexis, all very interesting. My understanding of placebo effects is that they are my definition temporary, hence the term "effect" rather than placebo "healing."
Is that an incorrect notion on my part?
That is how they are described by Sarno, and certainly often true. But I don't think it's an inherent part of the definition. And since many cases where a "placebo" effect occurs end in the ceasing of all symptoms (your going to recover from that cold anyway, right?) I think that's going to be hard, if not impossible, to say with any absoluteness. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 00:02:05
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stanfr, your (2) is spurious. Amir acknowledges that the pain kept his mind off other issues in his life. That's equivalent to distraction. Also, does it matter if the pain is a distraction? What if it's a warning sign? That doesn't change anything about the way you treat it, really. You still have to wake up to the warning and pay attention to what else is going on (equivalent to ignoring the distraction). And frankly I don't know what you mean on the skin stuff. If something is asymptomatic and isn't preoccupying you, it's impossible for it to be part of TMS as I understand TMS.
(3) Symptom shifting works on many people, both before and after they know about TMS. Sarno cites several cases of it in MBP (he treated someone for shoulder problems, and when their other shoulder began to hurt, they almost got surgery before calling him). And all you have to do is look around on this board to see it convincing, or trying to, people around here. The unconscious mind tries all kinds of crazy new strategies. It's not that smart, or healing from TMS wouldn't be possible. :P
4) We clearly aren't using these words in the same way, so I don't see how to address your point directly. You define Sarno in with placebos. Arguing definitions rarely gets anywhere. I look at it as: in a placebo, you're being given something that isn't capable of curing you. Sometimes your mind, because it believes the thing could cure you, cures you of its own accord. (I think this is a fascinating effect that's vastly underrated in medicine.)
I've actually wondered how TMS can be distinguished from this since the mind effects both types of healing. The best answers are two: one, do an experiment where two groups of people, both open to psychological explanations for their pain, are given different psychological explanations of it and different treatment programs, and see which does better. The second is that the rate of placebo cure is usually small. The success rate of Sarno would be astonishingly high for it to be a placebo only.
1) is the only moderately significant criticism and is, I think, no major roadblock to accepting TMS generally. There are thousands of people walking around with herniated discs and no pain -- studies have shown this. Why aren't people with TMS among them, and why shouldn't they be, if they so choose?
Sarno, as he has shown by changing his account of TMS theory over time, is open to revising his theory. Fact is, he doesn't know everything, but why should that stop us from believing he knows something? I don't think that controversy on certain points of TMS theory means that the rest of it is invalid. Nor am I of the opinion that TMS is definitively the answer for all pain, everywhere, in everyone. There's a large middle ground here. Most of us end up picking our way through it somehow and coming out the other end with a lot less pain or no pain at all. That's what matters.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 08:23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by art
Agreed. Why the need for some big announcement? I'm often left with the impression that the leaver really wants to be talked out of it . . .
Oh, how true these words are. Why else the big public announcement.
Shawn announced his leaving in a posting title, as did Shary.
Tennis Tom, however, DID NOT. He quitely said goodbye in somebody else's post. And, Ironically, it is he that is the most missed.
TT, please return to the board if you happen to read this. You are missed!
Beth |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 10:44:52
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Armchair: thanks for the reponse. It sounds very open-minded to me, a lot more so than some of the posts that provoked the initial discussion! I think we agree about the general principles. I wouldn't have recovered from sciatica 10 yrs ago if i thought the whole theory was a sham. But, specifics can be important, because they determine how best to proceed. To answer your specifics:
-When i referred to skin conditions i was speaking from personal experience. I have been dealing with psoriasis, which Sarno and others call "a TMS equivalent". Yet, it has been non-symptomatic (other than physical changes in the skin) for years, so therefore was not distracting, at least not conciously. Sarno would argue (i believe) that it does distract at some level. I just don't find this argument convincing.
The distraction concept is important because it leads to the "think psychological, not physical" tenet. By definition, such thoughts are negative, The heart of Amir's program, on the other hand, is to think postive. I'd like to know how to balance the two things. I've only been back on this forum a few weeks, and already ive seen numerous cases of people who say they got worse because of all the emotions they've dragged up.
-I agree about the futility of arguing semantics wrt "placebo". But as Alexis' response above makes clear, there seems to be this underlying assumption that TMS treats a 'psychological condition'. This puts the cart before the horse, IMO, since the TMS theory has not been proven scientifically. You suggest testing, but Sarno himself explicitly acknowleges in TDM the tremendous difficulty in traditional scientific testing of TMS. If you actually tried to think of a practical way to carry out your off-the-cuff suggestion, you'd quickly run into problems. As for placebo rates of cure, you have to define the type of placebo and the type of condition. I dare say back pain (subjective pain is the traditional basis for placebo, in fact hard-core skeptics insist placebo only works on pain/feeling) would have a higher rate than curing cancer! Sarno is the first to admit that his high rates of success are due to the screening that takes place. I have no idea where you'd find statistics on placebo rates of cure, but i seriously doubt any study of placebos has involved pre-screening--that would be pretty self-defeating! Then there is the "strength" of the placebo--Sarno mentions surgery as being very powerful/convincing, which it undoubtedly is! But so can a theory like TMS, especially when it has achieved an almost cult-like status thanks to the "miraculous cures". My only point is that i do not think it is being very skeptical or scientific to simply dismiss the possibility that mere suggestion or belief could be a possible basis of the cure. Why is this important? Because it directly challenges Sarno's notion that the TMS 'cure' is permanent! If there's anything "painfully" obvious (pun intended), it's the constant struggle for some sufferors (case in point, me!) to have to continuously do battle with relapses. Maybe, just maybe, it's because the theory itself is flawed. |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 11:00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
If there's anything "painfully" obvious (pun intended), it's the constant struggle for some sufferors (case in point, me!) to have to continuously do battle with relapses. Maybe, just maybe, it's because the theory itself is flawed.
IMO you would be better off if you stopped trying to disprove Sarno's theory and looked inside yourself for the reasons for the relapses. They are very important clues into what is going on in your unconscious that needs to be learned. They are actually golden opportunities for understanding and healing.
I can tell you from my personal experience that the concept of the symptom as a distraction is absolutely spot on. I've had experiences where the symptoms would ramp to block the feeling and when the feeling came out the symptom would lesson. (this happened mostly in the earlier stages of recovery). I've also had asymptomatic symptoms, such as high blood pressure and allergies, that simply improved without my even knowing it. The body is very complex indeed.
It is absolutely difficult to learn about what is going on in the unconscious but we must dedicate ourselves to the task at hand. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 12:23:37
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miehnesor: im not trying to 'disprove' anything. I'm trying to understand, and clarify. When i cured myself of numbness in my hands/arms 10 yrs ago, i was absolutely convinced in the 'distraction' idea as well, since the numbness was at night, and i figured out the only thing it could be "distracting" was my dreams. So, i made a concious effort to ignore the numbness and write down my dreams instead. Within 3 days, the numbness stopped.
But as i pointed out above, skin diorders don't necessarily distract. So, how do you ignore something that you aren't paying attention to in the first place?? When you say allergies simply went away etc, it sounds contradictory to me. If they were unsymtomatic--ie non-distracting--then as armchair says, they weren't TMS. So, which is it??? When you talk about 'feelings' being 'blocked' and then coming out--that is not what Sarno says. He says the feelings (in general) do NOT come out--and you are unaware of them--they are un/subconcious! So, i disagree with your "spot-on" assessment.
Now, i agree that i shouldn't worry about Sarno's theory and should try to understand the psychological basis of my problems--but that was not the point of my post. The point was to respond to those who preach Sarno as the sole method to truth and curing. The bottom line is you can't have it both ways: you can't say: "you must follow the Sarno perscription to a 'T'" but at the same time say "well, the details don't matter, just focus on your problems". |
Edited by - stanfr on 06/25/2007 12:31:58 |
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Allan
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 12:54:56
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I have to state that, in my opinion, from observations over the last three years, Dave's comments always have been to the point and extremely helpful to the topic being discussed and to the person involved as well as those reading his posts.
We all have different perspectives but from my perspective I can't see how anyone can have a negative reaction to his posts.
As a matter of fact, I would love to have a binding of all of his posts. It would be a wonderful reference.
Dr. Sarno's first book, Mind over Back Pain was printed in 1984. It is 112 pages long and states his theory in a way that is easy to follow. It even includes a diagram of a pinched blood vessel restricting the blood and oxygen. His theory is simply stated and to the point. He even refers to his first patient with TMS who helped him discover TMS.
Although his later books have had more elaboration they also include more extensive commentary. I think that we might be getting hung up on some of the commentary and would be better off to focus on the basic principles.
TMS is emotionally induced pain. It is harmless. It can be eliminated by knowledge. It is very difficult for everyone to do this, but it has been and can be done.
Allan. |
Edited by - Allan on 06/25/2007 12:57:04 |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 14:25:51
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In Dr Sarno's latest book "The Divided Mind" he has changed the wording regarding repressed feelings saying that in general they don't come out but sometimes they do which he calls the exception. This forum shows numerous examples of folks getting to their repressed feelings and finding relief. Also in TDM there is an expanded psychology section that gives examples of people getting better in therapy and getting in touch with their feelings.
Repressed emotions throws the immune system out of whack causing all sorts of bizarre manifestations. Some may be distracting. Some not. I don't see why all the various manifestation of repressed feelings having to function as a distraction.
Actually I haven't really followed Dr. Sarno's treatment program to a T. For me i've persued the repressed feelings using inner child work because the treatment program didn't really work for me. This is because I had very deep seaded issues that required in depth exploration. I am the exception TMS case.
Additionally I think we agree that the important thing is to get on with the work. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 14:30:00
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quote:
TMS is emotionally induced pain. It is harmless. It can be eliminated by knowledge. It is very difficult for everyone to do this, but it has been and can be done.
TMS isn't harmless to those who are unaware of its basis, and who have surgery or commit suicide. Heart disease, cancer etc aren't either and these are also emotionally affected, as made clear in TDM. So, while i agree that getting hung up on the commentary could be counterproductive, on the other hand i question what the basics really are, and quite frankly i don't think it's crystal clear just what they are.
miehnesor: we are agreed. We may be the rule rather than the exception, though! |
Edited by - stanfr on 06/25/2007 14:33:48 |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 14:35:55
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quote:
Originally posted by miehnesor
For me i've persued the repressed feelings using inner child work because the treatment program didn't really work for me. This is because I had very deep seaded issues that required in depth exploration.
Hi Miehnesor,
I think you and I have talked about IC work in the past, but would you mind sharing exactly what types of things--other than journaling--that you have done to get to your IC? For me, I often challenge my seemingly steady emotions (especially if TMS is active) and try to accept that anything non-indulgent or self-revolving is probably ticking my IC off, even though emotionally I am calm. I use the bigger piece of cake often as an example: e.g. giving it to someone else probably ticks me off, although consciously I am very giving to others.
Just wondered if you have any other tools or suggestions you might be able to share. Books?
Thanks,
>|< Penny
"Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have."
song lyric, America |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 16:15:32
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Penny- I use visualization in therapy to access the feelings of the IC.
With the lights turned down and a noisemaker on to dull outside noises I start by closing my eye's with deep breathing for several minutes to try and relax and shut down my consious mind. Then I start a visualization where I grab my brief case with fear, rage, and sadness in big letters and I go down a spiral staircase and through a door to go to my inner child. I do this very slowely and imagine the visual and audio experience. When I get to my inner child I just start a dialog with him and I validate the emotions that I know are in there. The key is to show the child that he is loved by me and that I am there for him and that it is now safe for him to have his feelings. Since I know that I have repressed rage wrt mom I validate that rage and tell him that he has a right to feel it and express it. Usually it doesn't take too long before I start to experience the body sensations of fear. The typical manifestation is an increased heart rate and some tightness in the chest. I keep talking and validating until I sense that the fear response has climaxed. Then I slide off the couch and start screaming and pounding out my repressed rage for about 5-10 seconds of so until i've had enough. After that I just feel pure sadness and grief - no fear or anger. My therapist really just functions as a witness. I need that witness to experience all of these feelings.
Now I know that this probably seems pretty extreme but it is the only way i've been able to reduce the fear of my own anger- is to have it and realize that i'm going to survive it.
The good news as of late is that i'm finding the fear has lessened and is harder to recreate and when I can create it it is not as intense. I think i'm having some success at working through this iceberg of rage inside of me. What is very encouraging is that my symptoms, which have been creeping lower for years, have taken a nice step down with the split that is going on with my folks in the present. I'm realizing that my IC was one smart little kid. That he hid his feelings for a very good reason.
There is a lot of good material on IC work. I like Bradshaw's stuff a lot. I've been to two of his workshops and I have three of his casette booklets. My favorite is "Finishing your business with mother". I listen to them on my comute to therapy and they really have a way of breaking through to the feelings. The nice thing is the cassettes are cheap and you can replay them anytime you want. He has several great books like Homecoming and Healing the shame that binds you. Another great book on the IC is "Healing your aloneness" by Chopich and Paul.
I see some similarities in family dynamics to your situation having a narcissistic father and possibly mother as well. You may get a lot out of those books on narcissism that I recommended.
Hope this helps. |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 19:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by miehnesor
My therapist really just functions as a witness. I need that witness to experience all of these feelings.
Wow ... thanks so much for sharing your experience, Miehnesor! The fact that you need a witness to your feelings ... welll ... I relate to this so much, and it feels so good to know you feel this way too. Sometimes I feel like I need to tip my therapist (or apologize to him, but I know better) b/c I feel like I must bore him with my emotional outpouring. A lot of the vulnerability I show in therapy I have never let appear within myself, let alone escape and with a witness. Somehow it makes it more real, I guess b/c he shows a little sympathy. There is something very powerful about having a witness.
Thanks also for the book/tape references. I've seen you talk about Bradshaw and shame books before and I am going to get them soon. I have so many books in my life right now, it's difficult to determine which will help me the most. Right now I'm trying to figure out what to do in my marriage. I am at the phase in therapy where I'm trying to come to terms with the fact that I have recreating in my marriage a lot of my parent's relationship. This is very hard to admit. Bluntly, it sucks, especially after 12 years of denial and believeing everything is rosey! BUT on the flip side, my physical pain has diminished. Sometimes in therapy it will try to pop out and distract me from what I am saying, which has been helpful to affirm even more the psychological creation of my pain.
I digress (or streamed of conscious ). Anyway, thanks again for sharing. It really helps me to hear about people's therapy experiences.
>|< Penny |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 20:26:23
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Hoskier said :quote:
Tennis Tom, however, DID NOT. He quitely said goodbye in somebody else's post. And, Ironically, it is he that is the most missed.
I am overjoyed that TT has left - we are back on course with insightful quotes from people dealing with their TMS - not bombarded with repeated posts by a self proclaimed "expert" who was in denial of his own problems ( and I put Shawnsmith in the same boat)
Oh, and his leaving was far from quiet, typical.
Anne
I just wanted to balance some of the (very limited) praise and will not reply to discussions on the merits, or lack of, of these former posters. |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 21:14:10
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Penny- Sounds like you are pretty overloaded and may not have time for reading the latest interesting book. I would strongly recommend buying the tapes however since you can listen to them while in the car. Bradshaw has terrific insight. You should be able to get them on the site www.creativegrowth.com
Good luck with it and your work in therapy.
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 07:50:30
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Anne,
RE: TT, I respect your opinion, but don't see HOW you can say he was a self proclaimed expert or in denial of his own problems.
He always talked about the troubles he'd been through, so I don't see what you mean. I never got that he thought he was an expert at anything but possibly tennis.
I think he is extremely intelligent, with an extremely sharp, dry sense of humor, and a lot of people took that the wrong way.
 He made the board fun. I know lot's of people out there agree with me, but few have the balls to say it.
I totally agree with you about ShawnSmith, though. So glad he's gone. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 08:31:03
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Anytime the forum loses a member who has made positive contributions it is a shame.
This forum has never been meant as a "happy place" where people can get together and have friendly discussions and never offend anyone.
There have always been heated discussions. As with any group there will always be dissenting opinions and some who are offended by others. Inevitably some of these discussions escalate into personal attacks, and sometimes, people leave the forum because of it.
I've said it many times before: if you are offended by something you read on this forum, posted by a stranger who you don't really know, then look within yourself to see why it is affecting you so deeply. Conscious anger can be a smokescreen for deeper repressed emotions.
I'm sure there were many people who didn't like TT's posts and simply did not read them, as opposed to the few who felt legitimately hurt and were compelled to fuel the fire with inflammatory responses, ultimately driving him away. Some might view this as a victory. I see it differently.
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Swan song
