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Shary
147 Posts |
 Posted - 06/22/2007 : 09:49:44
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| Best of luck to all of you in your quest to defeat TMS. Whatever you do, I hope it works for you. |
Edited by - Shary on 06/25/2007 10:01:10 |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 10:35:21
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| Well, the only thing you can do is to search yourself. I would tend to guess that pretty much all TMSers have some kind of feeling of inadaquecy. |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 10:44:24
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Shary,
I agree. Dave's responses to me have always been cold and just plain nasty. In response to my recent post, I think he said at least four or five times that I should look to another site. |
Edited by - truenorth on 06/22/2007 10:49:48 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 10:50:42
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It's not about "my way or the highway." It's about keeping this forum focused on the topic for which it was created.
There is certainly room to argue the TMS theory, as was often done in a spirited manner in the early days of this forum.
There is of course room for disareement on the finer points of the TMS theory. There is one point, however, that is essential. If you have a TMS symptom, you cannot attribute that symptom to having any structural cause. You cannot say "it hurts partially because of psychological reasons, but also because my muscle is stiff." It simply does not work. This is circular reasoning and it derails the entire treatment process. Sarno learned this early on in his experience and documents it well.
This does not mean that if your shoulder hurts, and your head hurts, that both are TMS. Maybe the shoulder is TMS and you also have a brain tumor. That's certainly within the realm of possibility. This is why it is absolutely essential to visit a medical doctor and rule out any serious problem before treating a symptom as TMS. But over time, one can learn to be more "in tune" with their body and recognize the difference between psychogenic symptoms and injuries or cause for serious concern.
Increasingly of late the forum has lost its focus. I guess this is inevitable given the increase in membership. However, I have no personal interest in spending my own time and money to manage a generic web forum or support site for those with chronic pain. That's not what this forum is about. It's about TMS, specifically, Dr. Sarno's theories. My own contributions are typically succinct and to the point. I don't sugar coat my words. If this is interpreted as "cold" or "nasty" by some people then so be it. This is simply my style.
If anyone feels insulted by my "attitude" then by all means feel free to leave the forum. I welcome continued participation from all those who agree with the forum's intended focus and adhere to its policy. For the rest of you, there are thousands of other sites you can visit. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 11:38:51
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| I agree with Dave on this one. If we don't focus on what's causing the problem, than your not going to get better. |
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sensei adam rostocki
USA
167 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 11:47:24
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I can see both points of view. I hate to admit it, but... in the end, Dave is right. This is a TMS forum and there are tons of other places to go for other types of pain discussion. Personally, I think thinning the herd might be a good way for the board to regain focus, although I will miss many of the loyal and outspoken posters. - Sensei
CURE-BACK-PAIN(dot)ORG |
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truenorth
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 11:54:22
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Sensei,
I see. It's not OK to discuss pain on this TMS site but it is OK to have long, boring posts on many COMPLETELY off-topic subjects like Bush or global warming. Why is that OK? Why aren't those folks asked to go elsewhere? |
Edited by - truenorth on 06/22/2007 12:00:21 |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 12:19:37
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Nobody said it wasn't OK to discuss pain.
I think the general point is it's not OK to label Sarno supporters as fundamentalists.
Really, I have to say, I see more name calling and mudslinging coming from the Sarno doubters than the Sarno followers.
I keep seeing the term Faith Healing. That's pretty close to name calling if you ask me.
Sarno's methods don't involve religon. I keep seeing that Sarno supporters are "Adamant", or "Aghast", and yet, most of the emotional reaction seems to come from the other side.
I personally think that a lot of people need to think that their condition is "special". It's sort of an attitude like:
"How dare you suggest that what's going on with me is just TMS. I mean you have no idea how much I've suffered. No idea how scared I am. What I have is more serious than all this . . ."
Perhaps its this attitude that leads to the Sarno doubting. I know when I was suffering the most, a lot had to do with people's lack of understanding about what I was going through on all levels.
When I think of people who overcame their physical limitations, I will believe until my dying day, that those that believe they have no physical limitations ALWAYS do better than those who acknowledge and coddle their physical limitations.
I wish you guys well, and I'll visit your "50% Sarno Forum" site.  |
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sensei adam rostocki
USA
167 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 13:43:28
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truenorth, The point in question here is TMS fundamentals versus acknowledging a physical reason for the pain. Doing so is contrary to TMS treatment as per Dr. Sarno and is therefore contrary to the ideals of the board (seemingly, as per Dave’s Law). I think I got this part right…
As for long winded conversations on politics, religion or anything else, non –TMS, I am with you 100%. I do not think it belongs here at all. I don’t know why you addressed this point to me, since I have never participated in any of these conversations, not once, not ever.
If the board is about TMS, it should be about TMS. Also, I never said I agree with any of this…just stating Dave is right since it is HIS board.
CURE-BACK-PAIN(dot)ORG |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 14:20:17
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Is there something in the drinking water? What is this with the formal resignations lately?
I simply don't understand why some of you are so pissed off. Have your point of view, argue your point of view if you wish, listen to other points of view. Takes what's helpful, leave what isn't. IN the process, hopefully we'll all learn something. And how knows, surprise surprise, you just might find yourselves recovering.
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smashist
19 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 15:24:19
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as far as the cap thing goes, it works indoors too. just so you know.
yeah right. |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 15:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by art
Is there something in the drinking water? What is this with the formal resignations lately?
 lol |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 15:46:27
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quote:
How dare you suggest that what's going on with me is just TMS. I mean you have no idea how much I've suffered. No idea how scared I am. What I have is more serious than all this .
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I'm on board with this as well. You've caught the underlying anger beautifully. I make a big deal on this forum about humility in the face of pain and illness, and the attitude adjustment that's often part and parcel of healing, but many don't want any part of that. It's "I've journaled, I've read the books, I've participated in the foruum, so where's my recovery already!!" Health isn't owed to us. It's a gift. I make it a point evry day of my life now to make sure I'm grateful for the health I do have...
If that sounds holier-than-thou, I'm sorry. I don't feel holy in the least. Like many of us around here, I've suffered mightily in my life. Suffering can be a great teacher.
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Gemma_Louise
United Kingdom
68 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 15:46:53
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art, I completely agree with you. We're all different and people are never going to agree on everything.
I totally agree that people need to repudiate the physical in order to recover from TMS, but that is a very very difficult thing to do after a lifetime of conditioning. Some people might be able to grasp this concept quickly, others will take a little longer and some might never be able to fully accept it.
I'm still relatively new to this forum, therefore I can't compare what the forum was like to what it is like now. I can say that I do enjoy reading the comments and stories when I come on here. I may not necessarily agree with everything people say, but I can usually always find something of interest. If something doesn't really interest me, then I just don't read it. Simple as that. As art says, "Take what's helpful, leave what isn't. In the process, hopefully we'll all learn something."
'Stop being so hard on yourself...it's not good for your health' - Shine, Take That |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 16:20:26
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I've been in therapy long enough to know that all of our negative TMS-causing patterns replay over and over until we either acknowledge and accept them OR make changes in our patterns/relationships/communications so we can break the cycle and get better--both physically and emotionally.
Perhaps when some leave the board thru dramatic announcement, this is an example of a pattern that could stand to be analyzed or discussed in therapy?!
>|< Penny
"Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have."
song lyric, America |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 16:27:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Gemma_Louise
I'm still relatively new to this forum, therefore I can't compare what the forum was like to what it is like now.
Sure you can. Go back and start reading the posts from 3 years ago. Use the Page selector when you are in this screen http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2
In fact, I would venture a guess that if everyone did a little homework and started reading the forum from the back to the front, instead of just today's posts, then many of your questions would be answered. And if they are not, then feel free to post a new topic.
So, some people will say, "I don't have time to read all the posts." Yes, I agree, there are a lot. But you don't have to do it in a day. Take all the time you need. Look, if you've had 20 years of chronic pain, and it takes you a year to get thru the history, that's not bad. If you have had only 1 year of pain, then maybe investing a year to read the history will SAVE you 20 years of distress. Either way everyone wins.
Take care, -Stryder
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Edited by - Stryder on 06/22/2007 16:55:26 |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 16:37:26
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Shary: i sure hope you don't leave this forum! Thanks to you i started reading F Amir's book and it will surely help in my progress. Amir is obviously a Sarno 'disciple', but it's clear to me half-way through his book that he differs from the 'purist' approach in significant ways.
I keep beating myself over looking for some great "unified theory" which will make everything crystal clear and be able to solve all my problems in hours, when my rational side knows this just aint gonna happen in all likelihood! Unfortunately, i think that's why so many people are turned away by the purist approach. Sarno himself seems unwilling to accept anything that challenges the underlying ideas. His response has always been (paraphrased): "TMS is a very complex, multi-leveled phenomena" (a convenient cop-out to disarm any critique) or "Well it must work cause thousands have been cured". This is hardly different from any of the huge number of placebo-based 'alternative' health cures. So, if the 'creator' of the theory seemingly can't be open to the possibility that he doesn't have all the answers, what can we expect form his 'followers'? Actually, I think it's neccesary for Sarno (and any other proponent of a revolutionary idea) to take a hard-lined stance so they are not seen as wishy-washy, especially in this case since the TMS 'cure' most definitely requires acceptance of the 'pychological, not physical hypothesis'. In that respect, i wholeheartedly agree with every Sarno 'purist' out there. You just have to understand that and don't take it too hard--i'm learning this! I do know there will be insighful help given by someone on this forum, so i'm gonna keep coming back. I hope you do as well. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 17:51:36
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quote:
Perhaps when some leave the board thru dramatic announcement, this is an example of a pattern that could stand to be analyzed or discussed in therapy?!
Agreed. Why the need for some big announcement? I'm often left with the impression that the leaver really wants to be talked out of it, but as to that I'm not a mind reader and if someone feels the need for some sort of public farewell, or public screw-you, or public whatever it is, then who am I to question that?
That said, each and every public leaver in the last few weeks has in my opinion been angry....Since TMS theoiry holds that rage is at the bottom of our symptoms, this seems a possibly productive area for inquiry.
Gemma, thanks for the support. No doubt in my mind you're going to do quite well... |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 22:44:41
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quote:
This is hardly different from any of the huge number of placebo-based 'alternative' health cures.
Sarno documents what is different and how the TMS program differs from a placebo. This material is in The Mindbody Prescription and The Divided Mind at least.
I have had many of the placebo alternative health cures, and they did not work for me, though many of them did have temporary placebo effects. TMS is a total focus shift, not remotely of the same realm. It puts you in charge of your own healing instead of handing you a new kind of practitioner.
Sarno has created a theory of TMS from 30+ years of patients, to give him a store of experience that leads to his judgment about how TMS works, and that's what he puts in his books, so naturally he's behindt what he says 100%. He states clearly in several places that he's theorizing (such as the oxygen deprivation mechanism) and doesn't know for sure that something is the case, so he is not claiming to know everything. I'm really not certain what you refer to when you talk about conflicting evidence that he dismisses without good explanation -- I'd be interested to know.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 18:09:14
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quote:
when you talk about conflicting evidence that he dismisses without good explanation -- I'd be interested to know
Armchair: those are your words, not mine. But i could go on for hours about unresolved issues regarding TMS, probably would be better in a seperate post, but here's a warmup:
1) As someone mentioned in another post, there's the nagging question of just what a herniated disc is when it comes to pathology?
Sarno has never given a clear answer to this question. If i dug up the quotes, i could show you where he repeatedly calls disc herniations "harmless/normal aging process" Yet he is quick to note that in "extreme" cases actual physical harm might result. So what are disc herniations? Since they can be transitory (self-resolving) might they not actually be caused by the mind rather than targeted by it? Or might they be truly capable of causing pain, just more so in the case of someone with "TMS personality"? Unresolved, and yet a pretty crucial question!
2) More troubling is the notion of pain as a distraction. Interesting, i am reading F. Amir's book right now and not once does he use the word "distraction". I have personally asked Sarno how things like skin disorders, which can be basically unsymtomatic and therefore non-distracting can be TMS? His response: "TMS is multi-leveled, complex...yadda yadda". A far simpler explanation would be either that they are not TMS, or that they are equivalents to the tension, that is created by the tension itself and not necessarily acting as a distraction. This is a crucial question, since it dicates how the disorder is treated.
3) How about symptom shifting? If the mind truly wants you to believe in a physical basis, why shift the anatomy: keep the pain where it started! If anything, symptom shifting is the strongest first clue to sufferors that their disorder is psychosomatic. A contradiction, if you ask me.
4) finally, but most importantly, Sarno's somewhat deceptive notion of 'placebo'. He insists the TMS program is not a placebo since it involves aquiring knowlege rather than blind faith. But where's the knowlege?? As you pointed out, there's no huge resevoir of studies concerning TMS or psychosomatic illness for that matter. If there's anything that should be obvious, it's how most definitely "blind faith" in the Sarno method seems to be a requisite to cure. If that's not placebo, don't know what is. It dont matter that it's not a sugar pill: belief is belief!! Now, i personally think the placebo itself is underated as a cure (ie, mind activating natural curing powers through the placebo) but that's a separate issue.
I could really go on all day, but my point is that Sarno doesn't have all the answers, and if you treat people as if he does, you can lead them down the path of confusion and more stress. Perhaps that's why some people do worse despite following the treatment religiously; because it's not that black and white. |
Edited by - stanfr on 06/23/2007 18:12:45 |
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bert
24 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 21:51:13
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I totally agree with all your specifics Stanfr.
Another thing I've been thinking about that just doesn't sit right is, as kids all we did was try to have fun for the most part. Couldn't it be that having fun keeps your attention off of any body problems? Seems as we get more responsible we slowly but surely lose touch with what kept us so fullfilled as youngsters. Now that we're not out playing sports or hanging out with all our friends and having a great time everyday thiers so much more time to dwell on problems and responsibilities and must do's. Actually, I should say we have to do certain things to survive to make sure our kids, spouses, etc. have what they need. Now this can be look at 2 ways at least that's what I see. The Inner child is angry about this, and/or as fun going somewhat irresponsibly young adults we had more time to focus on what's fun and rewarding everyday. As more responsibly older adults our focus has changed to what's needed to do to keep everything going and also try to keep expenses under control. Another words, more to worry about. And don't try to tell this is typical TMS personality. Because this is typical human behavoir. So since we are not so busy with what can I do next for fun. And who doesn't like to have fun? Now the mind is fed up with this life style of keeping up with stuff that isn't always fun, so it says hears a little pain to side track you. Maybe you'll get it and go back to having fun like life is meant to be. Since we live in such a high tech and constantly changing world since the last 50 years or so. Maybe this is why more and more people are having all these body problems. Years ago from what I'm told, you just worried about the basics. Now everything has gotten alot more involved. I worry about our kids and our kids kids not even having a child hood. So what Sarno says about just ignore the pain and go on about your routine is getting back to doing what we used to do that we truely use to enjoy that we stopped because of life getting in the way. And dwelling on if I get hurt I can't work to pay the bills etc, etc, etc. When I was young I wouldn't thing twice about jumping off a 30 foot bridge into a river. Now I'd say when I was young we use to...
I'm finally getting to understand how to ignore the little pains that come and go throughout the day. But ignoring and accute attack would be very difficult as I've seen posted here many times. But I do now realize how the minor spasm had taken control of my life over the past 10 years of so. Hopefully I will be able to start to go out after work and play ball again as I also think the activities we used to do is also what kept our bodies loose and limber and kept us away from having lots of the pain we have now. I'm 50 last month, but I really don't feel it mentally. I have acted it physically though. It's time to act how I feel and get back to having fun again. Pain can wait. Fun is where the real cure is I say. |
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Swan song
