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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2007 : 14:47:46
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I want share this interesting and insightful quote from Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind" as it particularily resonates with me. It almost seems that Dr. Sarno got into my head when he wrote it. My mom and dad were divorced when I was merely 14 years old and the following years were very painful for me. It is this event that I am currently doing my self psychotherapy around. Read on:
"The longer I do this work, the more impressed I am with the ubiquity of a certain kind of emotional abuse of a subtle nature, not always easy to detect. Invariably, when I ask patients to characterize their childhood years they will tell me they were okay, or normal, or even fine. But then, when pressed for details, another pictures begins to emerge. When I ask, "What was your father like?" they will admit that he was a stern disciplinarian, or he wasn't around very much, or he left the raising of the children to Mother, or he had a short temper, especially when he had been drinking, or he and mother were constantly fighting, or they separated when the patient was five or ten or fifteen." - The Divided Mind, Pg 99
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 06/04/2007 15:35:06 |
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electraglideman
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 18:31:51
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Shawn that statement resonates with me also. My dad was a very stern disciplinarian and wasn't around very much because he was always at work. He had a quick temper and did not "spare the rod".
I sometimes worry that I'm not the father I should be simply because I did not have a good example to go by. One thing is for sure. I have never struck either of my childern.
I found out much later in life that my dad suffered from a bad case of depression. He turned out to be a much nicer person after his treatments but the fact still remains that I missed out on having a normal father-son relationship. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 19:07:56
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I decided I never wanted kids due to fear of not being a good father and told my wife so before we got married. The strange thing is my TMS started around the time she got pregnant and then had a miscarriage. There is a link there somehow.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 19:19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
I decided I never wanted kids due to fear of not being a good father and told my wife so before we got married. The strange thing is my TMS started around the time she got pregnant and then had a miscarriage. There is a link there somehow.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp
Shawn, I'm so sorry for you and this loss. I miscarried this year and I had no idea the amount of emotional and TMS factors that could surface from this til I resumed therapy after 2 month leave. It's been really hard. I was going to ask you a few questions ... but I won't because I've asked you some in other links and noticed you never replied ... I think I've been a bit strong.
My father was absent, always working or golfing, or barhopping, although my mother reiterates he was never an alcoholic. He doesn't drink anymore, but not b/c he formally stopped, just b/c it makes him feel ill. I suspect he cheated on my mother once, as I found earrings in our van when I was 12, and my mother doesn't have her ears pierced. Sometimes I wish they would divorce (they are still married after nearly 40 years). I hate Father's Day card shopping. Every card I read reminds me of how disappointing my relationship with my dad was and still is. I always wanted to be daddy's little girl, but he never got close enough to me. Now I'm grown up and waking up, it feels like it's too late. I have so much anger for him, (and ironically so much unexpressed love) especially b/c I am alike him in my strength and determination, although I am completely dissimilar when it comes to how I love people. I probably am overly loving and demonstrative to compensate for my loss of love with my dad. This is so sad.
>|< Penn |
Edited by - Penny on 06/04/2007 19:24:30 |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 20:42:59
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Penny, go ahead and ask me a question. I did not ignore you on purpose, it's just that it's hard to keep up with all the threads on this busy forum.
My father was not interested in us children. Booze was not a problem in our household. He was forced to marry mom when he was a boy of 16. He stayed married to mom for 28 years and had 6 kids, one still born. I was the youngest. Dad was a srtict religious man until I was 11 and then, for various reasons, he left the church and then left mom and my mentally retarded brother- whom he has not seen in 29 years- when I was only 14.
I cried over this for a long time and felt very sad. I was even suicidal but religious teachings made me fear carrying this out. But the strange thing is I, unlike the rest of my family, did not express anger towards my dad. When I was 28 I unleashed a barrage of anger against my dad but then let it go. He never supported me at all when I was growing up and my mom had to work like a dog to keep my brother and I. Dad, on the otherhand, married a wealthy woman and lived a good life and paying no attention to us. I have kept in contact over the years but it is not a regular father and som relationship in the sense that there is any warmth or affection. I feel I reppressed a lot anger towards him over the years even though I kept in contact with him. But it was me that had to make the effort. He recently had a heart attack and he did not even tell me. I found out through someone else.
It is all long and complex and I cannot adequatley express all of my feelings here, but something inside of me is fill with a lot of rage and sorrow.
Yes, I may understand now why he left but that tells me nothing of my unconscious reactions to what he did.
I vowed never to have children and I did not want to be a father like him, bringing a child into this world and then inflicting him/her with pain. When my wife got pregnant and then miscarried it was then it all started for me TMS wise. Actually, now that I recall, when the news came she was expecting I initially freaked out and then kind of settled into the idea. I think we even got a bit excited and started imagining how our lives would change. But when the miscarriage occurred it was a mixed feeling of relief and sadness. Then the physical symptoms started. This must have been a trigger of something much deeper taking place inside of me.
I know that there are many factors that brought on my TMS, but what I have briefly outlined above is a major one.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 06/05/2007 05:46:51 |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
I decided I never wanted kids due to fear of not being a good father and told my wife so before we got married. The strange thing is my TMS started around the time she got pregnant and then had a miscarriage. There is a link there somehow.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp
Hi Shawn, Here is the tough question: have you been tackling any marriage triggers for TMS? The first thing I thought when I read what you wrote above was NOT about your fear of having kids, but of the fact that your wife was pregant when you had always expressed to her your adamant feeling AGAINST having kids. Did you think she got pregnant on purpose? I'm certainly NOT saying she did, but who knows what goes on in our subscious that could get our TMS active.
Pregnancy is a very stressful time for both sexes, and filled with mixed emotions, whether we acknowledge them or not AND whether we expected/want the pregnancy or not.
The other question I have for you is with regards to your brother. Could you also have a suppressed belief about having kids b/c of your brother's challenges? Maybe a fear of having a child with similar needs? Although you eloquently express (and you have every right to feel as you do, btw) your reasoning behind not having kids, perhaps you are covering up the real reason?
I am sorry that you were so hurt by your father. I am so glad you never hurt yourself and that you are still here. You are such a valuable part of our forum ... it just wouldn't be the same without you.
The fact that you settled into the feeling of possibility and were almost happy about the pregnancy ... well, it makes me wonder ... should you guys try again? As kind as you seem to be here on our forum, I'm guessing you would make a great dad, and you already know so much about what you never want to become--I think that's half the battle. (The other half comes thru therapy ... at least that's my experience.)
See???? this all is VERY nosy of me. But you asked for it.
>|< Penny
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
The Great and Powerful Oz |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:42:29
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I don't want to intrude into the discussion about having kids etc., but I did want to say, someone on another thread (I think miehsnor) pointed out that the same thing is repeated on this forum w/ regard to people's childhoods. People often come in claiming things were okay for them and this could not be the cause of their TMS, but after a time they see that there were issues they were not aware of.
quote:
miehsnor said:
I think most TMS'ers suffer, at least at the beginning of their treatment, to a healthy dose of delusional thinking wrt their childhood. If you have TMS you need to take a more critical look at these source figures and question just how idyllic it actually was especially wrt allowing the full spectrum of childhood emotions.
This has certainly been the case for me. I think the fog-shrouded feeling and subsequent conclusion that things must be "fine" because you don't remember much of anything is a particular warning that there is something there the fog is trying to protect you from. I have not penetrated most of it yet but enough to see that the case was much different than I believed. And therapy really comes in handy because the therapist can give an outside perspective on an event and help you figure out whether the situation was really okay for you or not.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 16:13:06
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
People often come in claiming things were okay for them and this could not be the cause of their TMS, but after a time they see that there were issues they were not aware of.
Very good point!!!!! My childhood WAS idyllic until I had my own kids and TMS flared ... and I realized I was very insecure during my childhood. I never felt jealousy, anger, rage, and rarely felt sadness (all very necessary parts of human experience). The only negative feelings I could express were thru illness, so that was how I got emotional support (felt love) from my mother, when I was sick. (That's so messed up!) Before TMS knowledge, I started to do that with my daughters. When they got sick with fever and nasty bugs, I'd sleep on the floor cuddling her, telling her (and probably reinforcing) how much attention she'd get when she was sick. There is a fine line b/t supporting thru an illness and enabling.
Thank goodness I know what I know now, and can nurture my children thru sickness w/o encouraging illness to become them. Illness is a mostly transient ... and if necessary we do have medicine to get better.
>|< Penny
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
The Great and Powerful Oz |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 18:12:39
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sorry you went/still going thru all that shawn.
I wonder if some of your anger is over conflict that you kinda understand why your dad is the way he is because he got married at 16 so young and subconciously you don't blame him for taking off. But your inner child is screaming for a daddy and does'nt give a shoot about what your dad feels, but rather he shoulda been there period. Obviously, you can see he was conflicted being strict religious, and then losing it at some point. I feel for you, Daddy issues are big on me.
I never wanted to have kids either, I'm glad I do now. But I'm realizing a hate for my dad more and more as I give (perhaps overgive) my kids love and attention and wonder where the hell was that from my dad at all. And I grew up hating my mother my whole life. |
Edited by - skizzik on 06/07/2007 18:15:51 |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 20:54:12
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quote:
From Penny
Did you think she got pregnant on purpose?
No, my wife wants kids less than I do, although for different reasons than mine. So we are a good match in that respect. There are at times a secret wish to have a child but then I see a screaming brat in the mall and I say "Thank God I am not a parent." I also don't want the responcibility. I don't like being responcible for anyone.
I honestly don't think my special needs brother had anything to do with my feeling, but perhaps you are right. I never really thought about it from that perspective but I am careful not to reject any suggestion as the thing I most strongly reject may be the very core of my problem.
We are 43 now so time for kids is gone. Too dangerous at this age. Regrets or no, the time is past.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 06/09/2007 19:17:21 |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 20:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
I don't want to intrude into the discussion about having kids etc., but I did want to say, someone on another thread (I think miehsnor) pointed out that the same thing is repeated on this forum w/ regard to people's childhoods. People often come in claiming things were okay for them and this could not be the cause of their TMS, but after a time they see that there were issues they were not aware of.
Please read the following:
"The longer I do this work, the more impressed I am with the ubiquity of a certain kind of emotional abuse of a subtle nature, not always easy to detect. Invariably, when I ask patients to characterize their childhood years they will tell me they were okay, or normal, or even fine. But then, when pressed for details, another pictures begins to emerge. When I ask, "What was your father like?" they will admit that he was a stern disciplinarian, or he wasn't around very much, or he left the raising of the children to Mother, or he had a short temper, especially when he had been drinking, or he and mother were constantly fighting, or they separated when the patient was five or ten or fifteen." - The Divided Mind, Pg 99
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 00:00:32
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Shawn, I'm not sure why you're telling me to read that. I read it at the top where you posted it. I've read all of The Divided Mind plus The Drama of the Gifted Child, so this is a subject I'm familiar with. I'm adding to the discussion (I hope) by saying that my experience is that the pattern he mentions shows up on the forum a lot, and agreeing that indeed it's an important area for people to examine.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 12:17:24
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Shawn- It is certainly true from your post that you have a lot of anger wrt dad and for very good reason. But- I remember a quote from Baseball where he said that one approach to untangling the mystery of TMS is to dialog in detail about all the important people in your life with a note indicating whether you had anger with them or not. The answer lie in the people you DON'T have anger with.
It seems that your mom was entirely overloaded with 6 kids, one of them requiring special needs, and a father who was gone emotionally and eventually physically. So who was there to take care of your mom's needs? How did you end up mattering in this family and what was your role in it wrt mom? Being the last kid in such a large family I could imagine that your mom might have been burned out from raising all those kids and might not have enough energy to really take care of your needs.
I think that the anger that you have been aware of in the past wrt your wife and the fact that the symptoms started with the sad situation with the miscarriage are important clues and somehow reflect back to an earlier situation with either mom or dad that warrants more investigation.
Since you didn't mention any anger towards your mom i'm wondering if you may have idealized her since you may have been more dependent upon her for your own survival. How can you have anger with someone who you are dependent on. That kind of anger gets repressed fast.
Also I sense some defensiveness from your last post to ACL. This might indicate something important as well. |
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A very good quote from The Divided Mind
