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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
 Posted - 05/30/2007 : 15:08:25
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Hi there:
I’m wondering if anyone here has any knowledge and/or experience with the Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder as applicable to TMS equivalence.
Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder [DSPD] is a sleep disorder quite apart from insomnia. though one can have both at the same time Someone with DSPD cannot get restful sleep during the hours when most do. They tend to be up most of the night and sleep during the mornings. When they are forced to be up early, as they often are, they are inevitably tired whether they get sufficient amount of daily sleep or not.
It’s believed to be some deviation of the melatonin rhythm from the “average” which thereby disrupts the normal circadian rhythm. It’s often treated by some combo of exposure to a high intensity light box at specified hours and melatonin. From a bulletin boards of hundreds of other night-owls who’ve tried these methods, it seems they never really get restorative sleep when they use these methods.. Many are coming to the painful recognition that this is simply the way they are and either have to work their lives around this, or succumb to a life of feeling inadequately rested even if they get enough hours of sleep. Though many report a history of depression, there are those who say they are normal in all other regards but this. Although the research on this is still in an early phase, there are those who face this might simply be the way the person is put together. Like being left-handed in a right-handed world.
On an internet list of several hundred of such Night Owls, I have yet to hear one report of someone who was able to successfully reverse this lopsided sleep pattern using the methods currently prescribed. There are a number who were behaviorally able to reverse it that way, but they say they’re not getting restful sleep. They can only get restful sleep when they return to their reversed sleep pattern. Here’s a case where sleep professionals are saying its reversible using certain therapies. While those that have it claim to still be suffering afterwards.
I happen to have this syndrome myself. Have had it for many years, and it does seem to have strong emotional undertones and overtones. And it did come on during a period of deep depression in my 20's I need to work my life totally around this pattern. Otherwise I’d be a zombie all the time. It would help enormously if I were somehow able to reverse it given the upheavals presently going on.. Since lack of adequate rest is a sure trigger for all of my 5 or 6 TMS or TMS Equivalents , I wondered if this “Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder” might not in itself be a "TMS Equivalent"?
I’ve gotten my shipment of the Sarno books today. Although insomnia is somewhere addressed there, I see no reference to this somewhat different type of sleep disorder.
Anyone have any ideas or experience with this?
Would love to hear:
-Eliuri
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Edited by - eliuri on 05/30/2007 16:10:31 |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2007 : 23:47:39
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I've never had a formal diagnosis of delayed sleep phase syndrome, but have always been unable to fall asleep until early morning hours, since I was very young. When I slept well, I needed to sleep late in the morning in order to not feel sick. School was a nightmare and summer a great relief. As an adult it was always hard for me to work day jobs, so I usually worked swing shift type jobs. When I became a mother I was forced to fight my natural clock and developed insomnia, which has stayed with me for twenty years. I had one prior episode of insomnia that lasted several months when I went through a divorce, mid-twenties, but other than that I'd always slept well as long as I slept according to my natural body clock.
My biological son has been the same way, having a late body clock, since about the age of 3 years, when he stopped napping and developed an all night sleep pattern. One of my 3 brothers was also the same. The rest of our family just view us as lazy.
I can't say if there's any relationship to the TMS, in the sense of this being a TMS equivalent, but I can say that my brother and my son have both had other symptoms that are likely TMS, and since I have TMS, perhaps there's a connection.
Will be interesting to see what others may have experienced--glad you brought it up. |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 02:31:42
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Welcome
Did you know there is a TMS-ish book about insomnia? It's called "Say Goodnight to Insomnia," and it definitely shows insomnia to be TMS. There are exercises about changing the beliefs involved, etc. I wonder if this might be helpful.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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eliuri
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 03:27:35
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Hi again LittleBird:
I too would love to hear more about the possible psychogenic components of this. I keep hoping that it can somehow be brought under control without drastic interventions, though perhaps it simply can't.
You wrote:
quote:
My biological son has been the same way, having a late body clock, since about the age of 3 years, when he stopped napping and developed an all night sleep pattern. One of my 3 brothers was also the same. The rest of our family just view us as lazy.
I have some siblings who fought to overcome this. Seems they succeeded in some measure. I suspect that they paid some price for it in terms of restful sleep, but they don't speak much about it. One of them had recently told me that he sometimes was shocked to find himself asleep at the wheel from sheer sleep deprivation on account of this. He somehow managed to rise above it. He has periods of depression, but our childhoods were painful in some similar ways. So it's hard to say.
My daughter began showing signs of this at about the same age as your son... But she also had some rough times at that age.
It might simply be how she is wired, possible similar environmental stressors/trauma, or some combination of these. She still has this pattern, but it's nowhere as severe as mine. You mention "biological son". Was wondering if you have step children as well, and if they show similar tendencies?
This whole thing is somewhat enigmatic....Truth be told, I love the night time and I find little appeal in sunlight unless it's dim. But I often wonder if there isn't something psychological underlying this aversion.
Hope to learn more:
-Eliuri
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WavySoul wrote:
quote:
It's called "Say Goodnight to Insomnia," and it definitely shows insomnia to be TMS.
Thanks for this reference Wavy.
The real question here is whether Delayed Sleep Phase is TMS- related as well as insomnia. Delayed Sleep Phase is a sleeping disorder, but most books on insomnia don't treat of this as insomnia per se. Maybe next time I'm in a bookstore, I'll browse through it to see if its addressed there.
-Eliuri
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Edited by - eliuri on 05/31/2007 05:20:00 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 08:48:16
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"Delayed Sleep Disorder" What a load of CRAP! Sorry to be so blunt but this is the TMS board--"don't ask a barber if you need a haircut." Regarding melatonin, last word I saw "studies" showed it didn't do a thing, along with St. John's Wort, glucosamine-chondroitin, copper braclets, (but damn'd if I'm gonna' get into medical pot though).
Hello Eluri! A little over 24 hours ago you achieved a huge breakthough taking your daughter to the amusement park, when you never thought you could! You should be doing emotional cart-wheels in your great success. Instead you're posting here (quite eloquently by the way) about another symptom. Your wasting your time with this sleep junk.
Take a walk around the block or jump in the pool instead, somethng that would do you some good instead of worrying about another TMS distraction--they are endless.
Read page 26 MBP, Rahe-Holmes pages. We are goodists, perfectionsists and CONFORMISTS. Someone once said we need to have 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep to keep the wheels of industry churning and we feel like we are freaks or aliens if we don't dutifully fall into line like good Germans, (no offense to any good Germans).
You are being gamed by the system on this. I'll claim it TMS. It's only a problem if you THINK it is.
This winter I drove 8,000 miles coast to coast and back. If I felt sleepy I pulled over and took a nap. Falling asleep at the wheel is dangerous. If you feel sleepy, don't mess around with it, just pull-over in a safe place and take a nap, as soon as you can. You will be able to see the signs of it long before it gets dangerously so. If you aren't aware of the signs that it's occuring then you aren't paying accurate attention to your body signals, part and parcel of the TMS personality--start paying attention!
If you feel tired, take a nap, they're in these days.
Some of my favorite excerpts from " _THE DIVIDED MIND_ " :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 12:56:53
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I doubt this is a TMS equivalent. I think it's just the way some people are built. Everyone I know has a slightly different preferred sleep time, and this seems like just the extremes of the variation.
It's interesting there is a pathologizing name for it, since I wouldn't regard it as disorder, though obviously it is annoying (my boyfriend has this issue as well and is always tired if he stays on a "normal" schedule). I sleep best between eleven and nine, and don't get restful sleep if I go to bed after 2am or before 10pm. The fact that that's 80% of the population and 10% need it earlier and 10% later (ballpark, obviously!) doesn't mean the 20% is bad, just different. It's even possible this could have some sort of evolutionary basis -- these people are the natural "night watchmen" for the rest of the community or something. That's total speculation though.
If you address your TMS at its root and this goes away too, you'll find out it was an equivalent -- you could always try it. But I don't think you should focus on it, frankly. Not everything is TMS!
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 14:34:44
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Hi Eliuri,
I do have step-children, six of them, and one of them seems to have the delayed sleep pattern. My bio son also has Attention Deficit Disorder, and this particular step-son also has the same type of ADD symptoms. My husband and another step-son have ADHD, which involves some additional behaviors that the ADDer's don't have, at least not to the same degree as those with the hyperactivity component have them. I know some people think ADD and ADHD are not real issues either, as many believe with the delayed sleep. I've learned to ignore most skeptics. (Nothing personal there TT, hope you won't be offended if you read this.)
Depression runs in my family. I've had it most of the time since I was a teen. My brother who had the delayed sleep also had serious depression. (He self-medicated with alcohol and died of liver failure at the age of 54.)
My mother was mentally ill, so all of my siblings and I had a chaotic life from the time we were born, which makes me think that even some of our very early health issues may have been TMS-type stuff. My bio son was born at the time when my step-children were just coming to live with my husband and me, and some of them were not at all happy about having a new step-mom, so things were very stressful for all of us at that time, and my bio son may have also developed TMS stuff as a result. It's interesting though to see the health issues that my step-kids and I also have in common. Whether this is just a coincidence or whether they have also developed TMS and picked up my symptoms because that's what they were familiar with is an intriguing question. It can be hard to separate out just what issues are related to what causes, but I don't know if it really matters that much.
If the sleep issue goes away with the other TMS stuff, that will be great, but even if it doesn't I'll still be pretty satisfied. As Armchairlinguist suggests, I don't really focus on it as part of TMS at this point. Actually, as far as doing TMS work goes, I've never thought of getting rid of particular symptoms. Some of the ones I had went away very quickly, while others have held on, so I sort of feel like my unconscious mind will decide what to let go of and when as I continue to progress.
Corey |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
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Delayed Sleep Phase-Night Owlism:TMS Equivalent??
