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Chantal
2 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2007 : 02:53:13
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quote:
I see no reason that anyone needs to appologize for their replys because no one wrote anything negative or insensitive. It is the TMS gremlin just f...ing with us.
I have removed my list of hilarious symptoms. It was not taken seriously and it was a major mistake to post here. I never got my question answered. It is impossible to write off all symptoms as "just TMS" when they have never been discussed or mentioned in TMS literature. "Fibro" symptoms go far beyond the average "wide-spread muscular pain" that most of you think it is. So, how can one honestly TRUST that? Just because some of you sarcastic folks say so? C'mon! You all seem to liberally write things off as "just TMS" regardless of WHAT those symptoms are! It is also interesting how some of you conveniently blame the "TMS Gremlin" for your rancor and lack of compassion. "TMS made me do it"... please...
I will continue to study Sarno, but this place... talk about a stress-rage-generator! Now that I have read many posts out here, I see that this is nothing new. Some of you guys are really mean to each other, and seem to enjoy the sport of attacking one another out here all of the time... well no thanks!
Again to those of you who responded with care and genuine support...
my sincere thanks and good luck to you.
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Edited by - Chantal on 03/08/2007 00:08:08 |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 05:46:23
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Some of them are known TMS symptoms or equivalents, while for others it has not been determined. You have a long list there. My wife had frozen sholder. 100% TMS for sure!!!!! I think the HEAD/NECK/MOUTH and MUSCULOSKELETAL symptoms you have listed are all TMS symptoms from what I have read over the years.
*************
Sarno-ize it!
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Edited by - shawnsmith on 03/06/2007 06:48:24 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 06:29:16
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Have you read Nancy Selfridge's book? It's not that I think it's a better book, but I wonder if you might see yourself better in it.
I don't know if all those things are or could be TMS, but I expect it's as likely as that they are fibro (if any real distinct category of fibro exists). I really doubt any syndrome in the world (including TMS) truly causes all those things.
I only started reading about fibro a few months ago when trying to fill out my reading in the TMS area. Some of the other theories are compelling, but I still do suspect a TMS type syndrome in most cases. I actually doubt that any of the other fibro theories I've recently read could cause all the symptoms on that list. (not that I think TMS would for all of them either...just think about how such lists are compiled and why tired doctors hand them out)
While I currently suspect a lot of fibro cases, if not most (?), are a TMS type syndrome, I don't discount the possibility that something else may also exist in some people. I should point out that while I am urging you to seriously consider TMS as a real possibility, I'm actually considered a little less 100% dedicated to the TMS hard-line than some others here, so you won't be be hearing me say "Oh yeah, definitely TMS" or anything like that.
That said, I really encourage you to give it a long hard consideration and see if it sounds like it even could be right in your case. I was stunned to see this work for RSI in my hands which had left me unable to do basic household tasks or use a computer. My belief in the theory grew as I saw changes. Don't focus too much on the "mild oxygen deprivation" component. That's just one theory of how the mind is acting on the body and the mechanism may be much more complex. There likely are other elements at play.
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Edited by - alexis on 03/06/2007 06:46:32 |
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 09:40:29
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Wow, Chantal (one of my favorite names, btw.)! What a list. Your doc gave you this list to calm you?? That list is so inclusive that most people could find a symptom or several that they could identify with.
I don't advise you to think of all the individual symtoms that could occur. Just consider your own as TMS. I've had many strange symptoms in the past that have all come and gone in a TMS manner. So many people on this forum have beat their symptoms as well. A bit of a leap of faith is needed if you're still in the medical mindset. Most of us are when we begin on this forum. Just remember Sarno's beliefs and focus on your emotions. I bet after a week, you'll see a difference.
One more thing. Don't worry if you don't have a "book cure" or and instant recovery. It can take some time - especially w/fibro.
Good luck, Chantal.
Nor |
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ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 12:16:46
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The book that Alexis referred to is:
Freedom from Fibromyalgia : The 5-Week Program Proven to Conquer Pain
by Nancy Selfridge,MD, and Franklynn Peterson
Both authors cured themselves of their own Fibromyalgia using Dr. Sarno's TMS approach, and have written a book about it.
I suggest you read some of the reviews of it at Amazon.com. All but about 3 from super-skeptics, are extremely positive.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812933753
Best,
Ralph
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sensei adam rostocki
USA
167 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 14:01:16
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In my experience working with many, many fibromyalgia patients, I have seen a large variety of physical/emotional/unusual (for lack of a better word) symptoms. Knowledge therapy has worked far better than any other type of treatment for most of these patients. I have met a few that fit the "secondary gain" profile and were simply unable to recover. I would stay the course of using the books to cure the syndrome. Fibromyalgia is really just extreme TMS with multiple aspects of pain and related symptoms occuring concurrently. I hope you can beat it! Sincerely, Sensei Adam Rostocki
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sonora sky
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 15:09:19
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I'm sorry, but I can't refrain from commenting on that list your doctor gave you! My god! It's a hypochondriac's dream (or worst nightmare, depending on how you look at it)!
The power of suggestion is strong, and our minds often latch on to stuff like this; I can't imagine this list was designed to console anyone. It sounds like the TMS gremlin's instruction manual: "Hmmmm...what symptom cocktail should we create next? Let's see, a little tender spleen, a few heart palpitations, a twitching thumb, and some poor judgement. That should do it. Next week, we'll add frequent diarrhea, just to mix things up a bit."
I truly dont mean to offend, but I just couldn't help seeing the humor in this.  I think most humans could say they've had many of these symptoms over the course of their lives, and even several at once and over a period of time. I know I have. Does that mean I have (or have had) fibro? How many do you need from each category to qualify?
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Edited by - sonora sky on 03/06/2007 15:14:08 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 16:02:25
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quote:
Originally posted by sonora sky
It sounds like the TMS gremlin's instruction manual
I'm dying here at the TMS instruction manual comparison. That's exactly what some of these lists read like (and I've seen lists for other conditions that are almost as bad). Seriously, I've almost reached the tears running down my cheeks stage.
It's like the drug company inserts that say "patients have also reported..." and go on to list a ridiculous set of symptoms that maybe showed up once. Between the liability ass-covering and your doctor's hope that you won't show up for every new symptom, those lists will just grow longer.
Even with something like Lyme, which in it's most core form I believe does have some definite symptoms, the list of "possible" symptoms has become absurd. |
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Victoria008
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 16:12:12
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OMG! All those symptoms are Fibro? I too was recently "diagnosed" with fibro, but I thought that was just a pain disease. So I have been very afraid due to the other strange symptoms, many of those on that list. I guess that is relieving, because I am not too afraid of Fibro, cuz I believe it is TMS and can be cured. But I often take a lot of those different symptoms separately and question each one "Is this also TMS". When I believe that it is I am relieved, my fear abates and the symptoms usually fades. I am definately going to get that book that was recommended. The last few days were especially bad. I guess I have one of those hard cases, but I shall not give up! Good Luck Chantal.
Victoria
Victoria |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 20:28:12
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Hi Chantal,
I was given diagnoses of both Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Sydrome (by different doctors, I think since there is so much similarity that which diagnosis is given depends a lot on which the doctor is more familiar with).
I noticed that several of the symptoms on the list are actually repeated in different categories and some are even repeated in the same category, with slightly different wording, so as Alexis said, it appears that the doctor wanted to include every possible term that a patient might ask about, in order to head off some of the questions. Going straight through the list and not subtracting the doubles, I came up with 150 symptoms on there that I've had at some point over the past 19 years, since I began to have non-stop pain, fatigue, etc. I agree that reading a list of symptoms can trigger a person to develop symptoms, as even new doctors do that when they start medical school, but I was only counting the symptoms I had before I ever saw any symptom lists.
There are people here who have been very successful at treating Fibro.
If you do a search and skim through some of the old threads you'll probably find some encouraging info, but I do recommend you read the Freedom from Fibromyalgia book that was suggested. It was encouraging for me, since the mind does tend to think, "Well, if Sarno's not mentioning this specific symptom, how do I know if it's TMS?" Reading about other's having success really relieves the doubt. I believe that even Dr. Sarno probably does not yet fully understand how the brain creates all the different symptoms and equivalents, but I believe that the brain is capable of creating all these symptoms, because the brain controls everything our bodies do and it is the source of every sensation and physical feeling that we experience.
I have stopped having several symptoms, other symptoms are either less frequent or less severe or both, and I have some symptoms that are still hanging on at this point. I haven't taken the attitude that I need to fight symptoms individually, so the ones that cleared up quickly were not being focused on separately, they just happened to be what went away. I expect that continuing to work on the psychological focus will eventually bring results with the other symptoms that are hanging on. Some people here find they don't need to look at specific sources of anger and emotional pain, but Dr. Selfridge kind of recommends doing that, to some extent, and some of us seem to benefit from that more extensive psychological work.
It's easy to get discouraged when you are swamped with so many symptoms that interfere so much with your life. I am following the advice to "push through" the pain and other symptoms, but my body just seems to shut itself down at times, so I have no choice but to rest and then start the fight again. Yes, there are going to be people who can't relate to what it's like to have so many symptoms, but don't let that add to your anger pit--just do your best to briefly acknowledge the anger it creates and then move on.
Keep us posted on how things go for you. Best wishes, Corey |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 20:57:23
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Wow, totally right on with that "Gremlin instruction manual" comment:D
You know, when a doc gives you a list like this, particularly coz docs usually give very little useful written items, the brain will naturally gravitate to these symptoms. Or to labelling day to day indigestion or tiredness as a Symptom.
A cycle of fear develops when you are trapped by a chronic injury. You are afraid to get more injured, and your body can react to the fear by developing more symptoms to distract yourself from the fear. It can build and build.
It definitely takes time to remove yourself from the cycle, even after understanding and accepting what TMS is.
Good luck and welcome!
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 22:15:42
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Hi Chantal,
Being an old timer here, and having seen a lot of combat in the TMS trenches, I'd like to advise you to NOT take any of the comments personally. I just got home and did a quick scan of this thread. I am sure that none of the comments were directed at you but only rage against the system.
Fibro is the most extreme form of physical TMS and anecdotaly those who post here seem to be the most sensitive to thinking comments are criticism directed at them. I can assure you the comments are not ridicule of you or a lack of compassionn but quite the opposite. The comments are directed at an institutionalized medical/industrial complex that refuses to recognize that the mind has a powerful role in illness and wellness.
I'll look at your questions tommorrow morning when I have more energy and try to answer them, so stick around.
Regards,
tt |
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miche
Canada
283 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 23:01:12
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Chantal, you have my compassion, I have lived with fibro for the last fifteen years or so, UNFORTUNETELY I cannot give any advice as I have not been able to make Sarno theories work for me YET , not for lack of trying to apply his priciples either.
There are truly caring people on this board, however I am totally convinced that the majority cannot possibly fathom the degree of pain and fear this syndrome brings about, having never experience it themselves, so sorry you are hurt !
Miche |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 02:12:46
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quote:
a list like this is actually REASSURING! think about how SAD that is... not funny. You can't imagine it because you have not suffered such extremes, you cannot POSSIBLY understand it being that bad... Lucky you!
I resemble these remarks.
I just wrote a brilliant, articulate, witty and informed reply and the computer ate it!
Bottom line: I had most of the symptoms above except swollen testicles for THIRTY (yes 30!) years.
I am 73% better due to surrendering to Sarnoism and "working the program," even though I was pissed off about the lack of understanding of my long, mostly bedridden suffering. Yes, I understand about the suicide rate.
I have more, but should be sleeping now.
Hand in there, Chantal
xxx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 05:41:14
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Chantal,
I must agree with and repeat Tennis Tom's comment. The humor is certainly not directed at you but at the medical "establishment" (forgive the overused term) for publishing such an inclusive list! Anyone could look at that list and get frightened by it. It seems that modern medicine is so good at that. As you read this forum more, you will understand where the comments came from. NOBODY is laughing at your pain and suffering, believe me.
Just keep reading and not about fibro - about TMS.
Nora |
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sonora sky
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 07:20:17
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Thanks TT and Nor, you are right on. My post (and others') were not directed towards Chantal's (or anyone else's) personal experiences of pain. New members must understand that many of us on the board are extremely skeptical of the mainstream medical world, because we believe that it has not helped us with our pain, but only driven us further into our suffering, and further from hope. We try to find alternative ways of healing ourselves and helping others to do the same.
I just wanted to note that "poor judgment" was actually on the list, I didn't make it up to be funny. The TMS gremilin's list I gave was actually comprised mainly of things I've had. I have often thought to myself, "what TMS symptoms will I have today?" because I've had SO MANY, and they often moved around and came in different combinations. I was often (and sometimes still am) at my wit's end with the constant, seemingly unrelentless pain.
Again, the humor in my post was NOT IN ANY WAY laughing AT people in pain. I am person with TMS who has had many of the symptoms on that list, and I am not yet fully healed. But I feel that the seriousness/gravity of our attitudes towards the pain is partially what perpetuates the pain cycle. I think many veteran posters will agree that humor and a degree of lightness about the situation are essential tools in our recovery and healing.
I hope you understand that we are here to help, and the frequent activity on your post only reflects the interest we have in the topic and in helping you to formulate tools to bring yourself back to a state of wellness.
ss |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 07:56:04
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Hi Chantal,
First I want to apologize for laughing about the list. I realize that it was easily misunderstood and that it was inappropriate to focus on what many of us consider both a sad and humorous aspect of the medical system at this point in your diagnosis. Your concerns are much more immediate.
The thing in my case is that this is not actually the first time I've seen one of these lists. I suffered misdiagnosed B12 deficiency for several years, and if you'll check the symptoms (in the moderate to severe category) you'll see that I was likely every bit as miserable and in pain as you are. I did manage to just hold onto a job (something I can't say for when I developed the RSI) but because of the pain and the medications I had to have special arrangements to come in late and split the work day into workable shifts. I was beyond ever having a normal relationship or a normal job, and thought about nothing but my condition for hours a day. I broke down crying in a doctors office when I couldn't get the appointment I wanted, and I was a shell of who I had previously been.
And I was so miserable and had such odd symptoms they did consider fibro. I was sent for a trigger point analysis (I think that was what it was called). Before going I downloaded one of these lists. And you know what? I had had at least half the things on that list. And I definitely did not have fibro. Some symptoms were from the B12 deficiency, but others just normal parts of life or caused by stress (seeing things like shingles on that list stuns me...almost everyone over 20 has had chickenpox, and they've known for over 100 years shingles is triggered by stress. What do they expect of suffering people?).
But in the TMS framework handing out such a list is dangerous, and is, based on the theory, a tool for perpetuation of the symptoms on that list. In my own case, I had a core set of B12 deficiency symptoms to focus on, and was told I didn't have fibro anyway, so I forgot it. But I can only imagine the impact that giving such a list to those in full swing undiagnosed TMS might have.
So those of us here wanted to explain some of how that list might come about. We wanted to offer an alternate understanding of the list.
Most recently I had TMS related "RSI". Yes, the overall pain is not as miserable as "fibro" or B12 deficiency. But I lost my job (which in itself, btw, increases suicide rates). I couldn't do laundry, load the dishwasher or carry grocery bags. I couldn't use the computer or even work the TV remote control normally. I couldn't even hold a book to read as I lay in bed or hold a pen long enough to fill out the forms in the neurologists office. I couldn't use a normal toothbrush or work dental floss.
When I first came to this list I saw people with back pain and I wanted to shout "You fools! You've no idea how much worse my life is than yours. I lost my job and I may never work again. I can't even take care of myself. How DARE you compare yourself to me?!?!?!"
That's what I wanted to say, but I couldn't even type and had barely mastered the voice recognition software. I certainly was not going to be able to master the italics and underlining and bolding of a post like your first one here. So I was largely silenced. But sometimes I hated those people who I thought had no idea of how much worse my suffering was. "Back pain" was an expression I would say to myself with anger, and I would spit out the words in conversation. How could these people with their lowly "back pain" understand MY suffering?
And a long post like yours, formatted, italicized, bolded, underlined? I was a virtual mute, and your ability to express yourself would have been a dream I couldn't imagine. I just checked and my first post was 2 lines long. Even a few weeks in I was asking people how I could journal when I couldn't even hold a pen.
I also know what it feels like to think the whole thing insulting. Almost everyone thinks the whole idea of a psychological angle insulting at first. You clearly are over that first step in thinking Sarno may have something to offer you. But as long as you are taking these issues personally, and not seeing that we all consider ourselves in the same boat, I think you might still have a little way to go. No one here thinks you are any different than the rest of us. We think it likely you have the exact same condition we do, so we have no interest in insulting you. Many of us are, however, interested in insulting aspects of the medical system for a variety of reasons. I'm sorry if we don't always restrain ourselves at the appropriate times.
I wish you luck as I think you are likely on the right track. I hope that you will read Selfridge who I think will answer some of the questions you have which I know was really the topic before we got off track. But your question was why Sarno doesn't address everything on the list, so I think a discussion of the list and why it looks like it does was fair, even if my own comments were clearly not appropriate.
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Edited by - alexis on 03/07/2007 09:05:57 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 09:07:54
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Good Morning Chantal,
If you are still around? But with "fibro" TMS you are probably not going anywhere too fast. WARNING : THAT WAS A BAD KOKE OR RATHER A BAD JOKE (maybe due to bad coke he, he). If you are still here after that, good! Depression is a TMS affective equivalent. It prevents people from understanding what a funny guy i am, but some people here get it.
Chantal, one of the first bits of evidence that your f....ing form of TMS is beginning to dissipate, will be when you can start to laugh again. In India, where all the brains are (not Europe), they have groups of people who get together to laugh as a form of yoga-therapy. They discovered laughing has healing properties. They don't laugh at anything in particular, they just laugh. You probably won't be laughing today but when you do, take it as evidence that you are improving.
Your recognition that Dr. Sarno is a genius is good evidence that you have gained a great insight and acceptance of the Good Doctor's TMS theory. I have observed with myself and others at this board, an interesting phenomenon. That is TMS sufferers's gloss over, miss, and forget the portions of the Dr. Sarno's book that refer to their personal symptom. They feel that the people with neck, back, butt, or enlarged testicles (joke) are getting all the good TMS stuff.
This is a trick the unconscious mind (or gremlin) plays on us. It is the same trick that your mind has played on you giving you all the symptoms. You have observed some more mind tricks when you read the replys here and thought you were being ridiculed or not getting empathy. If anything it was the opposite. I read all the posts and none were directed at you but at the system.
In regards to your question about Dr. Sarno not writing about cognitive and neurological symptoms--that's ALL he writes about. He says TMS is all about the cognitive..in-accurate cognitive. The neurological system is the messanger boy for all the in-accurate or dis-information that the unconscious (bad-cogniton) is sending out to the body causing great but harmless pain. Whether you have one symptom, symptoms that move or as in your case multiple symptoms--it's ALL TMS! It all emenates from the unconscius causing in-accurate neruological responses resulting in harmless pain.
Dr. Sarno, in his latest book says this is a psychological protective device. The greater your symptoms perhaps the more protection your psyche needs from the enraging thoughts. The symptoms serve as a distraction to stop you from following through on those enraging feelings and doing and saying things that would be found socially un-acceptable in our culture.
This is in the books but the mind plays it's tricks to prevent us from seeing the info.
Chantal have you read the latest TMS book, THE DIVIDED MIND?
Have you been dx'ed by a TMS MD? Have you had psycho-therapy by a TMS trained psych-therapist?
In closing, I repeat my warning, nothing I have said or anyone else has, been directed at you personaly from anything but a helpful and empathetic place. If you are NOT reading it that way, it is the BEST evidence of the tricks the TMS gremlin can play that is the source of the TMS symptoms. 
Cheers,
tt
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Edited by - tennis tom on 03/07/2007 09:13:09 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 11:37:05
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Chantal, the reason that Sarno focuses on pain is that his first ideas about TMS came from pain patients, primarily people with back pain. People with RSI complain similarly about HBP and how it's all about back pain. Only later did he start to realize that these are all intertwined. He's not an expert on fibro and probably would not want to include a huge list of symptoms like that in his books because lists like that can trigger the "clever" aspect of TMS to jump to something new, as a few people have mentioned. We all are annoyed that he doesn't talk just about our symptoms exactly, because we would be comforted if he did. But the point of TMS is it's not really about the specific symptoms.
Sarno believes that the syndrome of fibromyalgia is TMS. If all of these things are indeed symptoms of the syndrome, then by extension he would agree they're symptoms of TMS.
My best suggestion would be -- approach the symptoms that you feel are most troublesome for you, most at the heart of your own experience of the syndrome. Try treating them as TMS. Read the book recommended on fibromyalgia. Hopefully you will make some progress.
BTW, I agree with the other who say that the comments are not in any way directed at you. We've all been in pain. No one is minimizing anyone's experience of it.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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momtoone
18 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 11:44:13
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| I generally am a reader and not much of a poster (word?) but I had to express a reply to Chantal. I think that she was coming here in hopes of support and to be honest I agree with her..she just did not get it (she did from some). Many people on this board have accepted and improved with Sarno's techniques. However, she is new to this, she is still at the point of one foot in the medical world and one in the "Sarno" world. She needed encouragement and guidance not mocking and although that was not the intention, I can see how that came across. People need to remember that when the majority first found Sarno they were at the end of their rope, just like her post screams out to me. She is not educated on the Sarno ways, she is just learning and how can she reject that symptom list when she does not have the confidence to do so. I do agree with TT in respect to the fact that I do not think anything was directed at you personally. I also agree that the Divided Mind and Nancy Selfridge (sp?) books are both wonderful works that will help you. I have been diagnosed with Fibro for 13 years now and I have had many of the symptoms on the list. But when you read these works, you begin to say Aha..that is me. I will caution you though that Fibro takes longer to rid yourself of the syptoms as expressed by Dr. Sarno and by the TMS DR. I see. I have struggled with this as I felt like I should have been healed immediately by reading like others were (peferctionist). Please return to the board and take another look at the posts and your own. Yours are like mine in the fact that it is filled with fear. This is a major componet of TMS and one not to rid yourself of easily especially if initiated in childhood, continuing on to the present. Best of luck to you. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 12:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Chantal
Hi,
I have read and own all of Dr Sarno's books. [emphasis tt] I have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia. And yes, I know y'all call it "the F-word" around here. I have read many posts where the extensive/severe nature of fibro has been blown off and/or minimized. Its difficult to compare severe fibro with a bad knee or a sore hip. Although I do recognize that it's impossible to understand how severe these symptoms are, if you do not suffer in this way.
WARNING : This is in no way criticism of Chantal or anyone else with fibromayalgia/TMS.
I feel this is evidence of how the TMS gremlin tricks the mind into what Dr. Marc Sopher mentions in TDM as in-accurate thinking and emphasizes the need to read and re-read Dr. Sarno, until the "TMS knowledge penicillin" runs it's full course, is accepted by the mindbody/bodymind on a cellular level and deconditioned from the in-accurate thoughts and starts functioning accurately in a TMS positive way.
I have seen no evidence that people with fibro/TMS are treated any differntly than others here and I see no reason that anyone needs to appologize for their replys because no one wrote anything negative or insensitive. It is the TMS gremlin just f...ing with us.
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If FIBRO is TMS- are ALL of these TMS equivalents?
