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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
 Posted - 12/28/2006 : 23:57:33
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| Alexis, you are obsessing about the credibility of TMS. Almost every post you write says the same thing, not enough evidence, not enough studies, not the right kind of studies. By doing this you avoid the issue which is doing the TMS work. It's your newest TMS distraction. Sarno says that most people will not buy his theory and accepts it at that. You have structured a great wall of defenses predicated on what you think good science is. I don't think you will make the leap of, do I dear say the word, intellectual faith, to accept TMS. Please prove me wrong. If you do one thing before giving up on TMS read the chapter in THE DIVIDED MIND entitled "A Rheumatologist's Experience". If you do that for me, and you still don't buy it, I promise to never sully your path again. |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 07:44:18
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Hi Alexis,
Thank you for your reply.
People have commented before that Sarno’s last 2 books seem too theoretical to appeal to the general public, but not of a nature to appeal to the medical community. I hesitate to recommend “The Mindbody Prescription” to friends because I found it hard going and I know others have. I found “Healing Back Pain” easier to read.
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… I worried initially that only "religious" or "believer" personality types may be successful in this endeavor. Here we are told that to succeed in beating TMS you must "believe". However, some people believe things more easily (with less evidence) than do others.
I’ve been on this forum for a year and from what I’ve seen there is a good mix of people among the recoverers: some have deeply held religious beliefs, some not. I wouldn’t say only “religious”/”believer” personality types succeed. I wouldn’t classify myself in that category and I have recovered. I take back what I said about blind faith being necessary for getting better. In fact, as others have said, understanding the concepts is more important.
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The skeptics among us want to see other skeptics who are succeeding.
It depends on the degree of scepticism. Obviously someone who refused to accept the idea would be unlikely to succeed. I think doubts or negative thinking are an obstacle to getting better but I think they are bound to come in, particularly if one has bad flare-ups. Those doubts are something one has to deal with during the course of getting better. I can see that you accept the ideas and I think that is enough as long as you take a positive approach.
I like the ideas you have raised here. You make some good points.
Tom, I think you’ve misunderstood Alexis. She isn’t attacking Sarno, she’s raising some valid points as to why his work is being rejected. I’m keen to raise awareness of his ideas and it’s useful to examine why people won’t accept his ideas.
Btw Alexis, I notice that you are in the same line of work as myself.
Hilary N |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 08:29:26
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| Hi Tom, Considering I've had a near 100% recovery from RSI in the last 4 weeks, I don't think the distractions are overwhelming. The fact is, I'm typing this all by hand which those other RSI sufferers, particularly those who have been out of work like myself, will understand in its full gloriousness. If thinking about this for a half hour a day is a distraction, it's no different than playing a little chess or tennis or whatever. Just something to do. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 08:38:11
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Hi Hillary, Your RSI story is actually one of the ones that has been inspiring to me. And I love how your plumber plays into it. Would make part of a good short story if you were ever so inclined.
I will try Healing Back Pain which I've skipped since I haven't had back pain in years and didn't want to read something less applicable. Thanks for the suggestion.
I think I've got to the point where there are few doubts in the RSI area...and that is the "big one", as you say, as it affects employment (and even trying to switch careers, it affects almost every kind of employment). Some doubts linger elsewhere, but they are very livable for now and hopefully will diminish. My issues with Sarno's writing don't make any serious impact on my own recovery, but I find it so scary how I could have missed this stuff for the reasons I've outlined earlier. |
Edited by - alexis on 12/29/2006 15:50:26 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 18:27:42
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Hi Alexis,
What I find irksome is that if you have had a near 100% recovery, then why the tone of skepticism and continuing the repetition of the false reviews of Dr. Sarno's life work. There must be some review on Amazon that says he's not scientific enough because the same theme keeps cropping up.
The proof is in the pudding. Thousands of patients "cured" of chronic pain by he and his colleagues, over a 30 year period of clinical study. He cites numerous studies in his books that back the oxygen deprivation theory for psychogneic TMS pain, polyneuropeptides and all that.
Dr. Sarno has done ground-breaking work in the field of psychosomatic pain. He has stuck his neck out. Hopefully he will get his due and win the Noble Prize for medicine and not posthumously.
Christopher Columbus was a courageous explorer, but he made mistakes, like thinking he had landed in India and mistakenly naming the indigenous people here Indians. Babe Ruth, one of the greatest home-run hitters of all-time also held the record for strike-outs. Great achievements take the courage to take chances and make mistakes.
If you have been cured in 4 weeks almost 100%, how about a little more appreciation and shout-outs for the Good Doctor rather than skepticism chat.
Regards and kudos on your TMS success,
tt
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 18:51:00
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| Gee, I would like to award you all PhDs in science. For those who are actually involved in scientific work you will know that a good part of what is published is bull-sh**t. I agree with Tom - thousands of patients recovered over many years, whether one thinks the methods are scientific or not, cannot be lightly dismissed. It has been correctly noted many times on this board that TMS is anti-logic. If you attempt to understand it with your mind only you will fail every single time as it throws everything we know about medical science on its head. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 19:53:44
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Tom, People can think for themselves and do not need to parrot negative reviews to have bad things to say. The same logic would imply that the large number of good things said about Sarno on this board are just ignorant people parroting good reviews on Amazon. Neither I nor anyone else is saying that. I believe you can think for yourself, as can I.
I have no interest in destroying Sarno's image, but rather in helping what is valuable in his work reach broader acceptance. I'm afraid you have seriously misread what I have written. I think he has made great contributions and saved many people. I don't, however, think he is an infallible god, and I don't think he needs to be held immune from criticism. I have lived and travelled in countries where you were not allowed to criticise "great" figures, and frankly your reverence and reaction to criticism remind me of life under the eyes of the communist party. Criticism and free thought are not your enemy.
Shawn, I agree there is bad science, but that does not make science bad. Further, TMS is not anti-logic, at least not by the definition of logic with which I am familiar. For examples see:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/logic?view=uk
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/logic
Unless something in TMS is contrary to basic principles, such as modus ponens or modus tolens, it fits within the laws of logic with the rest of science. Going around telling people that TMS is anti-logic is about the most sure-fired way of ensuring it never gains credibility I can think of.
As for science, everyone draws conclusions based on evidence. This can be done rigorously or loosely. In general scientists are more rigorous, but they certainly also can be sloppy and draw very, very wrong conclusions. Most people who claim they disapprove of science because of its failings don't realise that they merely replace formal science with their own science drawn form an even smaller and more biased sampling of their own observations.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 21:38:43
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Yes Alexis, I probably have misunderstood what you have been saying, but I don't think that is entirely my fault. I think it's your academic style. I have no problem with people being critical of Dr. Sarno, but I think that criticism should be balanced out with some appreciation. Have you sent Dr. Sarno a thank you note for having fixed you? I just get this sense of entitlement coming from you, that Dr.Sarno should tailor his practice to what is your and your colleagues concept of scientific proof.
I am probably mis-reading you, but this board would get dull quick if we really paid close attention to what everyone is saying. Maybe we should have a TMS convention at a Club Med, play water volley-ball and get really drunk and party.
Happy New Year from Gunnison, Colorado
Cheers,
tt |
Edited by - tennis tom on 12/30/2006 13:11:16 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 21:52:53
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Hi Tom, I only started reading Sarno and related works about a month ago, and still haven't put my recovery to the back-to-work test, so I think celebrating the cure may be a bit premature. I'm not sure if I'll send him a thank you note, but I certainly have sent personal thanks in similar situations before, so I may well be inspired. However, I will at the least print a full Success Story here when I believe I have reached that point. It will emphasize credit where I believe credit is due, as well as including some of my reservations.
Any chance the creators of this board have the hidden funding for such a club med convention? Or perhaps those of us willing to volunteer for reseach purposes could arrange for work to be conducted at facilities in the Carribean? |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 08:21:51
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Hi Randolf, thanks for the support and for apologizing for a crack I'm pretty sure you didn't make. Though actually I found the bed and breakfast comment both rude and funny at the same time. I considered asking that Harry and David gift's be sent in leiu of breakfast in bed, but worried about what may actually arrive if I were to post my address.
My scientific (as opposed to stylistic) resrvations about Sarno are similar to your own, though most strongly concern selective use of statistics and data--particularly failure to contrast his results and findings to samples in the general population (yes, some are there, but few). I will, however, stick to my resolution about not actually pulling apart the writing here since I am not convinced it will help, and this is a "TMSHelp" board in name and primary function. Were I an editor with Sarno dependent on my review for a new edition, my approach would be very different. |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 09:15:17
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Alexis, Randolph,
I understand exactly your points. And I agree that what is lacking is possibly in the editing, at least in MBP. However, my impression overall (he mentions fibromyalgia in a few places) is that he is saying regarding fibro that
1. From his diagnostic experience with patients, he has been successful in applying TMS principles to fibro
2. the evidence that there is oxygen deprivation in the muscles in people with fibro *supports* the theory that fibro works by the mechanism of TMS or "comes under" TMS.
In a science like biology, how can you talk about proofs? What kind of evidence would you present that fibro is a form of TMS? Everybody beleived that bacteria in the stomach were some kind of conclusive proof that they caused ulcers...the scientists got the Nobel prize for this research. I doubt many of us now think that this is the complete story. Even if you cured 1000's of people with fibro with some treatment, there is still some tiny probability that it was a coincidence, and they all got better on their own (at least this is what I would think until I could *see* the molecules of medicine doing their work in the body). So I tend to think that one must evaluate Sarno's hypothesis based on how much it seems consistent and his claims of treatment being succesful in many cases. I doubt that with present technology there's much more that can be done. |
Edited by - ndb on 12/30/2006 09:21:30 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 14:09:36
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Well I think we're getting somewhere now. Everyone seems to be in a good mood and no one is mailing me e-mails full of curses or having a public melt-down on the board, leaving in a huff, with pages of F-U, A-H, F-U left behind.
Rude and funny, that must have been me. I'm conducting TMS research at a Holiday Inn Express in Gunnison, Colorado, until after New Year's, waiting for the blizzzard to settle down in Kansas.
I've been traveling through the high deserts and desserts of Nevada and Utah, at elevations of 4-6000 feet. Oxygen deprivation definitely can have it's effects, my posts are much more rambling than at sea-level backhome in frisco.
I'm 'gonna take my TMS research to the next level. I will be scaleing Monarch Pass, crossing the Continental Divide, at an elevation of 11,312 feet. I think that's about the hight of base camp at Everest, (correction base camp is more like 18,000 ft.), I will quaff a bottle of Tahitian Noni Juice, (not sold in stores), and gage it's effects on TMS 02 deprivation.
Randolph, no sweat, I think you're a good guy. You certainly break the stereotypes held, (not by me), about truck drivers. I was curious if some of your day-to-day stess emenates from a lack of raport or political disagreement with your fellow road-warriors? Does your intelectaulism create a rift between them at the truck-stop diner for instance, thus contributing to your TMS rage reservoir?
According to the last chapter I read in TDM, regarding Fibro, it was just a severe form of TMS with mutiple symptoms, but TMS just the same, to be viewed and treated essentialy the same.
Sarno admits the structural answers to all the ways TMS attacks the various body parts is not known. He gives this little import and is the first to ask, if anyone knows please let him know. Anywhere the blood flows and polyneuropeptides travel is subceptible to TMS. When someone figures out the mechanics to one site, the gremlin will just come up with a new angst to try to give us pain, the symptom imperative to the black-hole degree. Look at pictures of all that gray-matter in the cerebellum, who's gonna' plot all that--illegal alien lab workers?
As for Sarno's, literary style, his secretary Mary, does most of his editing. The guy's 84, continues an active practice and I don't think gives a hoot as to how he is percevied publicly or literarily. No book tours, just a good doctor, devoted to his patients and helping other's get better whether the cause of their pain and suffering is TMS or a legitimate structural cause.
Regards,
tt high on TMS in the Rockies |
Edited by - tennis tom on 12/30/2006 19:51:03 |
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SusieDee
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 10:25:28
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I just finished reading Sarno's Healing Back Pain. I have been suffering with back/sciatica pain for 1/12 years and have had 17 steriod shots in my back. My neorusurgeon wants to lay me open like a fish and fix all sorts of things and then put a steel rod in my back. 4 doc's think that I need surgery, but I am terrified and desparate. I have been suffering from a difficult depression - not related to the pain, but some of it asscoiated with the pain. Just started an SSRI.
Help -- I want to give the TMS theory a shot but do not know where to start. Has any tried a hypnotist? Or Doc Sarno's tapes? I really want to give his theory a good try and want to do it in the right way that will hopefull give me some success. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 11:33:37
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Hi Shawn,
If that's what you use as your model for what science is, then it's no wonder you reject science. The problem, I'm afraid, is that you appear to be unfamiliar with the difference between real science and a bunch of con artists. If you took a random sampling of practicing and respected scientists and gave them Sarno or the kind of quackery posted in your link and forced them to chose between the two, the scientists would fall squarely on the side of Sarno--even while admitting Sarno's work has issues with regard to scientific weakness.
It takes years for one to read enough to know the difference between real and fake science, and no one on this board is going to be able to provide that kind of education in a couple of posts. Part of knowledge is knowing where you are lacking awareness.
Or am I misunderstanding you? Were you not posting that link as an example of "science"? It seems a very strange thing to have done, so I think it quite likely that I did misunderstand your point. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2006 : 18:08:34
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Hi SusieDee,
That's a tough story but well with-in the TMS scenario that many have experienced here. Many here have suffered with TMS pain for decades and made complete turn-arounds after recognizing themselves in Dr. Sarno's books. Put "Success Story" in the "Search" feature and read their stories.
If you can see a TMS doctor to give you a diagnosis it would help you alot. If you say what state you reside in, you can get addresses for the closest TMS MD. Or check-out a web-site titled htt://www.tarpityoga.com/tms.html it has a one of the best lists of TMS practitioners.
If you read HEALING BACK PAIN, then you have already made a good start. Get his latest book THE DIVIDED MIND it is EXCELLENT.
Were all your steroid shots in the same location or were they spread out over your back?
Feel free to ask as many questions as you need to help with your understanding of TMS.
Good Luck and hopefully on your way to a less painfull New Year,
tt |
Edited by - tennis tom on 12/31/2006 19:23:42 |
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Dr. Sarno's primary message
