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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
 Posted - 12/17/2006 : 14:30:57
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Sometimes I have problems identifying something as TMS or physical. Some weeks ago this pain on the top of my right foot started and at a certain point I felt it all the time when I wore shoes. I decided to do my weekly running anyway because it was just some sensation and didn't really give problems and it was probably 'fake' anyway. After the run, I had pain from hell in my foot, and I haven't run since. Not because I am scared, but because it hurts so much. I feel it's slowly subsiding like a real injury would, but I don't know..
The week after the injury I could feel the big toe tendon produce this vibrating feeling like a car's windowcleaner (how do you call those?) moving over a dry windshield, when I put my fingers on the top of my foot and wiggled my big toe. Today not anymore, which suggests it's healing. But with lesser severity, I remember I've had that slight uncomfortable sensation there more often.
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2006 : 22:46:05
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I'd suspect TMS, if it were me. But there's no harm in giving yourself a few days of rest. If it isn't getting any better, and you don't remember any trauma, be suspicious then.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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holly
USA
243 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 06:27:36
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| my foot pain is slowly starting to subside. very slowly. I don't think it is tms but never can be 100% sure. I think what ever I did to it just takes a little time to get better. i did notice one foot problem subside as the other "injury/problem" take center stage though. |
Edited by - holly on 12/18/2006 19:14:34 |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 07:14:45
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This is the TMS boogeyman. In the absence of any injury or disease, footpain is TMS, period. Dr. John E Sarno and Dr Marc Sopher both write about this.
My advice is stop concentrating about specifically where the pain is as you will become obsessed with it, and this will ensure they pain will continue. The location of the pain, as far as TMS is concerned, is NOT important. TMS pain has a tendency to move around in order to throw you off guard. With TMS, pain can be generated by the brain to every square centimeter of your body with no exceptions. And I can already anticipate someone writing me back and saying, "Oh Shawn my pain does not move around but stays in one place, so I must not have TMS." Sigh!
Here is what Dr. Sopher says in Chapter 19 of his book:
Chapter 19
FEET
Feet are a favorite topic of mine right now. There is a veritable
epidemic of foot pain in our society. All of a sudden, everyone has
foot problems, from pro athletes to the couch potato next door. This
has not always been the case. Think hard, back 10 to 20 years ago.
Do you remember hearing so much about plantar fasciitis, heel spurs,
and other foot disorders? Of course you don’t, because foot pain was
relatively uncommon then. When I started my medical training about
20 years ago, foot pain was not a common complaint, now it is in
vogue and everywhere you turn.
There is no doubt in my mind that the overwhelming majority of
foot pain attributed to plantar fasciitis, heel spurs, neuromas, or other physical causes is TMS. Here is something to think about: why
should the incidence of foot pain be increasing now? It makes no
sense. WE are not strolling about on rocky, uneven trails, barefoot, like our ancestors did. We are not shod in rudimentary footwear,
lacking cushion or support. In fact, I would argue that the footwear
industry has done an incredible job providing us with supremely
comfortable and affordable shoes. Not only is there a vast array of
styles, but we have shoes specifically designed for every waking
activity. There are shoes for walking, running, hiking, cross-training, aerobics, tennis, soccer, baseball, football, squash, racquetball, bicycling, rock climbing, golf, basketball – the list goes on. There are shoes in different widths, for overpronators or underpronators, for heavier folks, or those who are lighter, for high arches or low arches, for those who prefer extra cushioning or a wider toe box. The choices are dazzling. Now people are getting foot pain? How does this make sense at all?
Most of us have been upright, standing, walking, running,
skipping, climbing since the age of one year. Suddenly our feet
should start to hurt? This makes no sense. Falling from a significant
height and landing on our feet – that should cause pain. But even in
that scenario, with trauma, we heal (unless the trauma is severe)promptly and the pain leaves. Even broken bones heal, within four to eight weeks, except for truly extraordinary circumstances.Yet, well-meaning orthopedists and podiatrists will provide a
detailed lecture on foot mechanics and a very convincing explanation
of the suddenly acquired physical inadequacies responsible for the
pain. Why? Because this is what they are taught: a physical
symptom must have a physical cause. Yes, we all can get injured.
Step in a hole and you may sprain your ankle, injuring ligaments. But this heals. We are fantastic creatures, as I’ll remind you often. We
have an amazing capacity to heal quickly when injured. When pain
and discomfort linger well beyond the timeframe for expected healing
following an injury, what is going on? Have we suddenly become
defective, losing our innate ability to heal? If pain develops and stays
without obvious trauma or an unusual physical stress, what’s going on
there? How does that make sense? And if that discomfort becomes
chronic, then logic has really been defied. We cannot be so fragile.
If so, how could we still exist? We’d be extinct, having been wiped off
the face of the earth as a result of being so feeble in the face of normal activities.
So now, foot pain is in vogue. It is acceptable. Everyone has it.
The pain, the nuisance, serves as a distraction, keeping unpleasant
thoughts and emotions at bay. It is fine to commiserate with others
about aching feet, far more acceptable than ranting and raving about
stressful issues in your life, past or present.
Complain enough and your feet will get injected, put in splints or
fit for orthotics.
Undoubtedly medication will be prescribed. Maybe you’ll
eventually have surgery. Even worse than those treatments will be
the inevitable advice to stop running or quit aerobics class, to get off your feet. Exercise, which helps to maintain conditioning and fitness, aid with stress management and even improve mood, will be taken away in the name of modern medicine. Not too difficult to imagine the consequences, is it?
Oh, yes, sometimes the pain seems improved with one of these
therapies. However, in my experience, the relief may be temporary,
as with any placebo response (Remember, very few people really
want to be in pain). If it appears to last longer, it is inevitable that a
new pain will surface at another location. This is the brain’s strategy,
to make you believe that the cause is physical, rather than
psychological, and to keep you guessing, off-balance.
As an aside, I think the foot pain epidemic began shortly after
Larry Bird’s surgery for heel spurs in the early 1980’s. Heel spurs are
often incidental findings on foot x-rays, but now are regularly blamed
for foot pain. Which leads to the question: were heel spurs to blame
for Larry Bird’s foot pain? Obviously, I cannot answer that, but in the chapter on athletes I postulate how a competitive athlete’s personality
makes him/her a set-up for TMS.
Jack is a 45-year-old with heel and foot pain for more than one
year. Diagnosed by both a podiatrist and orthopedist as having
plantar fasciitis, nothing has alleviated his daily foot pain. He’s tried
orthotics, NSAIDs, taping, stretching and special exercises to no
avail. In addition to his foot pain, he has a history of chronic
intermittent back pain despite two surgeries, reflux, migraines and
irritable bowel syndrome.
Married with two children, he is self-employed and trying to get a
book published. He is very happy with his life but acknowledges that
he feels much responsibility for his family and realizes that this is a
source of stress.
At my urging he stopped all treatments and within two weeks his
foot pain resolved. His other symptoms have also improved.
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 13:42:47
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"It is fine to commiserate with others
about aching feet, far more acceptable than ranting and raving about
stressful issues in your life, past or present."
Shawn, thanks for posting that-it's such a great example of why I have TMS, being concerned with what's acceptable, rather than being free to acknowledge what is really going on. |
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holly
USA
243 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 19:22:40
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| I find this all very interesting. I have noticed that if i put a small pad under the toe area in a shoe it seems to really help. Is this a placebo or just shock absorbing cushioning making a much needed difference to get by?? And I do mean get by! TMS, placebo or just something that helps make a difference? |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 05:56:25
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Holly
Placebo, 100% certain of it!!!!!!!! |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 07:14:39
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Those gel insole things feel so good, frankly who cares if they're a placebo for whatever ails you (ok, I'm sure some of you do, but I wouldn't). And while maybe being 100% sure about things helps the TMS process, I can not agree with being so sure about anyone else's medical situation sitting here at my computer.
I hate to be the one to thow up doubts, but I did, absolutely without doubt, cause a visible (visible without x-rays) structural problem in a foot by wearing the wrong pair of shoes at the wrong time (I was so stupid I won't retell the story). And surgery was ultimatlely (after a long wait) needed or I would have had to live in sandles for a very, very long time. Next time I had a foot problem (a different problem) I threw in some gel insoles and it was gone in a week, never to come back (and no, no other problems arose at that time).
I belive in TMS and I suspect -- strongly -- that I now have it. But the 100% certainties sometimes expressed here scare me. I'm also a vegetarian who experienced a very real set of neurological problems caused by very real B12 deficiency, and I'm scared that some people here have jumped on board without even the B vitamin deficiency tests that any responsible physician will have given people with neuralgia. Sorry if my nay-saying goes against the grain here, but I do think there are real health problems and we shouldn't just call everything TMS. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 07:38:30
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Alexis
I am very happy you have had relief. That is good news for you.
BUT!!!!!
As you long as you continue to apply a physical remedy to your TMS symptoms you will not recover, or if you do have relief the pain will eventually come back, because you are sending out a message to your brain that you have a physical problem and not TMS. Go back and read page 92,93 of Healing Back Pain. Also see pages 71, 81, 121-28.
Your brain is playing games with you Alexis and trying any means possible to convince you that you have a physical problem. Like me, and others also, you may be tempted to express your anger and frustration at other board members but see the anger for what it really is- a diversion intiated by your brain to steer you away for what is really taking place on the inside. Be assured that on my part I want to see you, and all other board members, get well as that just strenghtens our faith in the diagnosis and treatment program even further.
It is essential to believe 100% in the diagnosis without a shred of doubt. Dr. Sarno empahsises this over and over again. By continual reading and doing the mental this belief will come in time, I am certain of that.
I personally have had these B vitamin deficiency tests and I am personally fine. Does such a deficiency cause foot pain? Does thew pain go away when you take your vitamins?
There is absolutely nothing you can write on this board that will give me any doubts about TMS. Don't be tempted by the shiny apple of physical treament for what is essentially a pyschological problem because that shiny apple, although filled with a lot of promises, is filled with poison. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 08:02:44
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Hi Shawn,
I no longer have the B12 or foot problems I refered to. Those are from years ago. I do not currently have any problems that I believe are structural or am treating as so I don't see where I would be kidding myself -- unless you think I was mistaken all those years ago when I was basically healthy. The problems I was refering to are historic and all cleared, not to return, after appropriate physical treatments. They were confirmed by both testing and blatant physical symptoms that anyone could see.
I simply recount my history as a point of reference. 90% of the B12 problems (many of which were, in the later stages, visible to the naked eye) disappeared with in 3 days of treatment never to recur (normal for this condition). The longer standing symptoms disappeared over a couple of months, and only recurred when I slipped on my treatment.
I do not doubt your own interpretation of your own health. You know yourself better than anyone else here and it sounds like you have taken the appropriate actions to verify there are no probable physical causes. I suspect you are right in your own TMS diagnosis of your major symptoms. My only caution is in making assumptions about the health of others. TMS is reversable even after many years. The same, unfortunately, cannot be said for a B12 deficiency that is allowed to run on too long.
I repeat for clarity, I do not currently suffer from B12 deficiency or any foot problems of any sort. But sometimes people do have real physical problems...or else we would all live forever. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 08:25:35
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Shawn,
To quote Sarno himself (who I think wise, but not infallible):
MBS, page 172.
"I receive many calls and letters from people who have decided that they have TMS and are looking for additional guidance. Unfortunately, it is both medically and ethically impossible for me to advise them. What I do suggest, if they are convinced that they have TMS or one of its equivalents, have followed their doctor's treatment and continue to have symptoms, is that they consider psychotherapy with a psychiatrist or psychologist who is trained analytically."
My point is that if Sarno believes it is medically and ethically inappropriate to diagnose and advise over the phone, I don't think anyone here should be diagnosing or advising (in an absolute sense) either. Giving information, ideas and support, yes. Even saying "My own guess would be..." and recounting your own success. But to present with certainty when even Sarno would not, seems irresponsible. And if you are a medical professional, something akin to malpractice. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 08:42:51
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So why did you not say your problem was from 12 years ago? It almost seems you wanted to pick a quarrel for no good reason.
No one give you a specific diagnosis, but simply stated that the vast majority of foot pain problems is due to TMS symptom. Foot pain can also be due to diabetes, but I cn asssure you that the people who have such symptoms on this board have had that checked out.
TMS pain can come and go without any treatment at all and only persists when there is a real problem. The patterns of the pain are too numerous to even imagine.
If I am reading you correctly, you seem to assume that people on this board have not first gone through the proper medical channels to rule out a pyhsical cause for their pain and are using the internet to diagnose themselves, but that is an incorrect assumption. Most people have been through the full gambit of the medical establishment wioth no relief.
It does appear, however, that, like me, you do have a TMS type personality in insisting to always wanting to be right and have the last world. Welcome to the world of humanity Alexis.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 10:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by holly
I find this all very interesting. I have noticed that if i put a small pad under the toe area in a shoe it seems to really help. Is this a placebo or just shock absorbing cushioning making a much needed difference to get by?? And I do mean get by! TMS, placebo or just something that helps make a difference?
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I like it. Two very intelegent people having a civilized (so far) TMS debate. My two cents is that Holly asked for opinions. I was going to say the same thing Shawn did, but hesitated because this thread has come full circle (maybe several times). Holly has asked the same question several times, is it TMS or a legitimate structural problem?
This is the TMS board, my answer would be it's TMS 99%; DON'T ASK A BARBER IF YOU NEED A HAIRCUT. If you are looking for a structural solution go to the "Foot Pain Board" and I assume there must be one, and 99% of the responses will be "it's structural".
Modern medicine (due to the fear of malpractice) is very good at DX'ing structural problems. Barely anyone in medicine or psychotherapy are even looking for MINDBODY answers. By the time someone discovers Dr. Sarno they have box-loads of imaging and lab tests that have not shown anything conclusive (accept for nomal anomalies) and have not responded to conventional or alternative treatments. They have chronic mysterious pain.
I doubt if many researching their pain come to this site first. I would imagine they come here last, after exhausting the logical sources of structural pain.
Alexis, you make some very good and logical points. It's good to have you aboard because you exhibit good logic. A problem with TMS is that it is anti-logic. It's sort of like Alice through the looking glass. It comes from the part of the mind that is not amenable to time and logic, the unconscious.
None of us has seen Holly's foot or shoee-(if we could post pics here, wouldn't that make things more interesting!)-we've only read her posts. She asked for opinions and Shawn gave his and so did Alexis. Holly will do what Holly will do. (Holly, that's a nice name for this time of year, now isn't it. I hope Santa brings Holly some sexy new shoes that she can wear and be comfotrable in.)
Sarno's patients have posted here about consulting with him by phone regarding subsequent new symptoms. He dx'ed them to have TMS without viewing them in person. This would be thought of as unscientific, but the Good Doctor knows his patients and their mindbodies.
I hope neither Shawn or Alexis take offense from my 2 cents, as I think they are both fine people. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 12/19/2006 10:19:54 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 10:39:09
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Hi Tom, No offense taken at all. I liked your well balanced response. My only difference in your analogy is that I think of us not so much as barbers, but as people who need haircuts.
To clarify what I was saying, though, I haven't stated that I think Holly's or anyones foot is or is not a structural or TMS problem. I just don't know and was issuing caution to anyone who thinks they do know. Sure sounds like it could be, but for all I know she broke the thing (yes, I have also broken a toe so bad it stuck out at 45 degree angle...I'm a kind of a klutz).
From reading sucess stories I'm also a bit unsure that one has to be 100% convinced to succeed (at least at the beginning). After all, as a fairly extreme philosophical skeptic I'm not 100% convinced in the existence of the external world, yet I allow myself to be "convinced" enough to act and function within it and -- up until this latest problem -- to hold jobs and have meaningful relationships with family and friends. And over the first few weeks I've had great sucess only 75% or so buying this TMS business. I'm actually typing this whole post which was unimaginable a few weeks ago. Now maybe this won't get me to 100% better, or maybe it will. Or maybe I'll be even more convinced by then.
Then again, barberwise, I actually cut my own hair (and not necessarily very well, or often), so I'm either a very bad barber or poor client. Or I tend to mix up these analogies beyond usefulness. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:01:13
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Alexis, I'm glad to hear you're doing much better. You haven't mentioned what you have (a good thing on the balance, as too many people get caught up in symptoms) but it sounds like RSI. I got totally better from RSI in April/May -- type all the time now -- it's a great freedom. I wish you the best in your recovery. I'm pretty convinced now that there's no such thing as structural RSI, but (in the spirit of this thread) I haven't seen everyone! Still, that's what I think, if that is at all helpful to your situation.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
Edited by - armchairlinguist on 12/19/2006 12:01:26 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:15:09
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Hi armchairlinguist--I sure hope your right! I love hearing success stories, it's the best thing here in my opinion. Especially from someone like you who had a similar situation. It's really very encouraging.
I descrbed my symptoms, very roughly, in my profile. Basically RSI with some other stuff thrown in. It came on very suddenly, and while I'm now usually fairly sure current symptoms (at least the RSI and probably the other stuff) are a TMS type syndome, I'm not sure about the first week or two, which I will probably never know for sure about.
I don't know if that matters, though and don't really think about that early situation very much. I guess I do still belive that this is a TMS syndrome stemming in part from an original injury (and in part from my personality and reaction to that injury), but it doesn't much matter to me one way or the other. I have had a couple of debilitating (briefly) back problems in the past that I always assumed were stress related, so TMS hasn't been that big a leap as far as accepting there can be mind/body connections. |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:55:24
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Thanks for the posts, and esp. the quoted chapter! But it's not getting easier. Where I live, foot pain is not in vogue. How would I know this is TMS? People here would say yes, my doctor would say no, and I... I can only compare to other cases.
I know my RSI is TMS. It's partially cured and partially frequent random flareups these days.
Then I got these backaches. I have them all my life after heavy lifting, but when I suddenly had two days of pain for nothing I knew at least that occurance was TMS. I still have aches during dishes which makes no sense even for TMS but it probably is. Backache and RSI 'feel the same'. The pain feels similar and that's all. But once again I walked a lot (still no running because that sucked the previous time) and there is the rubbing the rubber band over the lunchbox feeling again when touching the top of the foot and wiggle the big toe. The other TMS manifestations produced no such actual internal mechanical vibration on movement.
Many people learn about a complaint being TMS because for years and years nothing else helped. Or because it's specific case documented 1000 times. When knowing TMS, a sympton might be stupid so that's busted also. But this... I don't even know where I'm going with this, just like... the only way to know for sure is to wait 12 months, right?
Also, I'd like to underline what alexis said (in the first post - you people are so fast). I can't assume anything 100%. Only when it becomes rational. And in my opinion to dx TMS you don't need to 'think outside the box' of rationality when you've adjusted the box to the new knowledge.
I know, 'It is essential to believe 100% in the dx without a doubt.'
I do for RSI and it helps. (!!!)
I do for tinnitus and it doesn't help.
I do for occasional back pain and it doesn't help.
But this.. nope. That's the problem.
You could read TT's post after this one, but I'm not looking for a yes or no answer. But ehh.. I don't know..
Are there people who recognize my described problem (internal vibration upon motion where 'normal anatomy' doesn't is new for me) and patched it either persueing TMS or some physical medicine way?
Sorry for the long post, I can't seem to straighten out my thoughts about this.
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 14:19:15
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RS, you're doing a pretty common TMS thing, which came up in another thread recently: it will never be the case that the Good Doctor has mentioned every single symptom you have. Even if you're the first person on the board, or in the entire world (unlikely!), to have a symptom, it could still be TMS. What you should ask yourself is:
1) Does this have a structural explanation from obvious trauma?
2) Is this providing an effective distraction; is it occupying my thoughts and bothering me?
If the answers to the questions are NO and YES respectively, suspect TMS.
From what you've written, I understand that the improvement in your RSI has let you go back to a largely normal activity level. That's your goal! You're already there. Just relax and keep doing the work, and over time you should see continued improvement.
However much you may not like Fred Amir, I think you'd benefit from trying out his deconditioning techniques, since it also sounds like you still struggle with certain situations that bring on back pain.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 14:23:01
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quote:
a car's windowcleaner (how do you call those?) moving over a dry windshield
They are called windshield wipers.
Beth |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 14:32:01
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Or windscreen wipers, depending on your dialect.  |
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holly
USA
243 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 15:55:55
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Alexis, Alexis, Alexis...where have you been?? Finally someone that agrees a foot problem can arise from shoes!! I am also interested in this B12 deficiency you speak of. I have also have polyneurophy for the past 3 years which came on after a really terrible bang injury to my right middle toe aside from this more recent neuroma type pain brought on by trying on a pair of shoes (also stupidly) too high. Are you saying that vitiman B12 deficiency has anything to do with neuropathy?? what has your experience been??
question: what do you make of the "neuroma type" pain coming on 2 days after trying on the high shoes? Don't you think that the sharp electric pain I first got(mainly that one day) would present itself immediatly after trying on the culprit pair and not 2 days later???? Now a dull numb pain just lingers but seems better when using those pads. |
Edited by - holly on 12/19/2006 16:06:56 |
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Foot pain, TMS?
