| Author |
 Topic  |
|
altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2006 : 09:13:38
|
I am reading this book, on and off with a few others I have on my table, and found his spiritual aspects in chapter 6 engaging.
Spiritual work seems to be missing in most books about pain. Page 138, he has a diagram of Daily Circumstances: Spiritually Distressed=
more production of strong negative emotions, and more pain.
Spiritually Healthy= Less production of strong negative emotions, and less pain. I don't belong to any religion, but have been reading
spiritual books for the last couple of years, and have found them to be helpful. Gary Zukav, Eckhart Tolle, Gwen Randall-Young,are all
great reading. I have not been consciously angry like I used to be,
and I feel at peace inside also, so I don't believe I am generating as much internal anger as before. On pages 179,180, he has a diagram of Autonomic overload, and Autonomic relaxation. A good read. Cheers! |
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2006 : 12:20:48
|
I agree with you Al, spirituality is missing not just in medicine and pain management, but also in our culture. I feel this is probably a great source of the increase of TMS in Western industrial society--who needs G-D when we have computers, and gps navagation.
It's just a natural outgrowth of our increasingly secular society. Christmas is even being taken out of Christmas. Little did the person who came up with the contraction "x-mas" know what they were fortelling. I'm not a Christian but I still enjoyed the spirit of the holiday and the respite it offered. Department stores our now even opening on Thanksgiving to get a jump on "black friday"--what a joyous term that is. All our holidays are loseing their original significance and purpose and just becoming excuses to party hardy.
I have annecdotely, seen on this board, that those who express religious belief seem to do better. It may tie in with haveing a raison d'etre beyond getting caught up in the secular culture's un-bridled drive for success measured soley on a material scale.
Having a belief in a spiritual power, beyond our-self, perhaps is a source of a power that enables those with a belief system to take the leap of faith to trust their own internal powers to heal. |
 |
|
|
altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2006 : 14:11:44
|
| Tom - thanks for your insight. |
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 07:29:06
|
quote:
have annecdotely, seen on this board, that those who express religious belief seem to do better. It may tie in with haveing a raison d'etre beyond getting caught up in the secular culture's un-bridled drive for success measured soley on a material scale.
What a load of b.s. Secular culture my ass. More wars have been fought, more blood shed, right up until the present day, in the name of God than in any other cause.
I've been a member of this forum for over a year, and have seen not the slightest bit of evidence, "anectodal" or otherwise, that would indicate being a member of a particular religion is in any way an advantage when it comes to TMS.
Please.
|
|
|
|
h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 07:39:31
|
Geesh, Art, why don't you tell us how you really feel? 
Seriously, though. The religous intolerance you speak of, that has caused SO much pain, suffering, and death throughout the ages is just that. Religous Intolerance. There is nothing good about religous intolerance.
Spirituality is something different altogether. The foundation of any spirituality is usually tolerance of one's neighbor, religous or otherwise.
Sprirituality exists apart from organized religion. And spirituality exists apart from religious intolerance.
|
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 07:46:40
|
I agree with you Beth. Organized religious zealotry is the big culprit here. I also object to the implication that religious belief, or its absence rather, somehow makes for a more difficult recovery from TMS.
|
|
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 09:44:35
|
Quoteing Art,
"I've been a member of this forum for over a year, and have seen not the slightest bit of evidence, "anectodal" or otherwise, that would indicate being a member of a particular religion is in any way an advantage when it comes to TMS."
Merry Christmas Art,
So that one brought you out of hideing. Today most wars fought on this planet are in the name of one institutional religion, namely Islam. 9/11, Darfur, Lebanon, terrorism in every corner of the planet where they see Western secular culture. Islam is against secular cultures like that represented by the USA. It threatens the rule by the old men.
Maybe you need to re-read the posts in the archives and you will find what I have seen, and I am not a religious person. Those who have expressed a spiritual belief in a faith based system, have an easier time accepting the mindbody connection. Just my opinion based upon my "subjective" observations. I don't know if you've read Dr.
Sarno's latest, THE DIVIDED MIND, but in it he refers to a "celestial archetect" and I don't think it was Frank Lloyd Wright.
I never mentioned any particular religion. Just the mere mention of religion seems to press your button. Well it was nice enough of you to check-in for the holidays. So, tell us how things have been going in your TMS dept, now that we've gotten the politics and the holiday cheer over with.
Seasons Greetings, 
tt |
|
|
|
johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 11:40:05
|
| I think we should set up a TMS boxing match between TT and Art. I haven't seen a good one since Screech beat the heck out of Horshack. |
|
|
|
Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 14:09:48
|
Art,
No, No.
Don't do it.
Dont' rise to the bait - he's doing it deliberately.
Anne
|
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 15:30:48
|
Hi Anne...I haven't even read his response...Nor do I intend to...
He's so full of crap he doesn't even know how full of crap he is....
"anectodal evidence" indeed......It's enough to make one gag.. |
|
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 16:33:00
|
Well Art, you may not read my response but I will read yours, in the interest of science and TMS edification. Thanks for proving my point about "liberals" and how they enagage in discourse--NOT. They have nothing intelegent to say so they "name-call", hurl invective and then run and hide, as you have once again proven.
You haven't posted here for quite a while but the mere mention of the word "religion" and you go into a tirade. I made a very valid point about "faith"--TMS is if nothing else about faith in oneself, and you hurl invective like a monkey at the zoo.
I'll try not to mention the word "sex" I know that's another topic that sets you off.
Season's Greetings,
tt -- the crappy one |
|
|
|
h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 06:58:01
|
Rise to the BAIT? What Bait.
As I recall TT made a statement about faith and it's role in TMS and Art came in with "That's total b.s.".
Seems to me if anybody was baiting anybody, it was Art doing the baiting. But, truthfully, I'm not baiting anybody, just seems people are quick to attack TT.
BTW, Art, I have to say, having read your recent thread about worry, I have to say that people who are more spiritual have in some way found a way to deal with worry. By that I mean, a lot of spirituality involves turning over ones worrysome problems to a higher being, or the universe or whatever. My point is, maybe spiritual people have an easier time beating their TMS because they have found an outlet for their worry.
Regards,
Beth |
|
|
|
PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 09:59:03
|
quote:
I have to say that people who are more spiritual have in some way found a way to deal with worry. By that I mean, a lot of spirituality involves turning over ones worrysome problems to a higher being, or the universe or whatever.
Agreed. I wish I could just suspend my disbelief and general agnostic values, and have total faith that a 'Celestial Architect' has everything under control, and fully believe that in the end all will work out for the best, for the greater good and higher purpose.
This is what Brady and others are getting at, that it is much better for our health if we really believe that a higher power is looking after us and and all our worldly troubles.
But being the obsessively analytical type, some days I can look at the world objectively and not see a whole lot of evidence that this is indeed the case, at least with a conventional interventionist type 'God'. I suspect that a fair number of TMS producing personalities are the same way. I really do believe that, whether or not they are right, this type of belief system can actually hurt people, causing them to feel more so much more out on their own. And this could add to the internal TMS factory.
Of course holding spiritual values is not necessarily the same as believing in a specific God or religion.
I do agree with what Tom said: "Having a belief in a spiritual power, beyond our-self, perhaps is a source of a power that enables those with a belief system to take the leap of faith to trust their own internal powers to heal".
Whether or not some atheists want this to be true, I believe that it actually is. Or put another way, I personally believe more in the power of spiritual belief than in the truth of any specific spiritual belief.
|
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 13:22:23
|
I tend not to respond to TT unless I feel like I absolutely can't help myself..I'm not baiting him at all Beth. You couldn't be more wrong. The ideal response from him as far as I'm concerned would be no response. Truthfully, I very rarely even read his replies. I don't enjoy these back and forths one bit.
All that said, I find the statement that those who have religious beliefs somehow do better in their struggle with TMS not just wrong, but deeply off-putting. Since it seemed that no one else was going to respond, I felt I should.
That stuff concerning the existence of "anectodal evidence" to support his position is utter nonsense. |
|
|
|
Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 16:35:34
|
Hi all,
Wow..how do I stay neutral here because I am such a good little TMSer and I hate creating or contributing to any waves..(You wouldn't know it after some of our past chats on here..lol) I guess I have grown a bit..
TT,
Being a spiritual person and having strong faith in G-d/Jesus, I found your thoughts positive and refreshing..You and I have had our disagreements on here to say the least, but in this one we are on similiar pages.
Art,
I have always felt a special connection/friendship with you and always will..(whether we talk regularly or not..) You have a wonderful HEART and Soul..However, in this area we are diametrically opposed..I know you are an atheist and I am a Jew who believes in Jesus..(I know, I know..it sounds like an oxymoron..please let's not go over previous covered ground here..this footnote is for whoever jumped on my case the last time I expressed this..It was a woman, cannot recal who..) ANyway Art it is good to hear you back on the forum..I respect your mind and your compassionate heart..I have friends of all faiths and that includes A-theism..I go by my gut w/ people and speak my mind (sometimes too much)..regarding all things..Hope you're doing great! I am up and down..good to be singing again..:))
Beth,
Was great to talk to you the other day..Let's talk again soon..:))
Hugs,
Karen |
|
|
|
Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 16:37:58
|
Altherunner,
Great post! I have been wanting to get Brady's book..It has helped alot of people..Thanx for reminding me!
God bless,
Karen |
|
|
|
altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 18:48:50
|
| Thanks, Karen. He calls tms Automatic Overload Syndrome, with having the autonomic nervous system on fight or flight response all the time. Just a small thing sends us over the top with pain, etc. It's great to see more doctors treating us and writing about it. My own doctor is open minded, I gave him HBP last Christmas, and I am going to give him MBP this year. He keeps a small library, and lends patients his books. I went to him for insomnia, expecting meds, and he lent me meditation tapes. cheers! Al |
|
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 20:38:42
|
quoteing Art:
"I tend not to respond to TT unless I feel like I absolutely can't help myself..I'm not baiting him at all Beth. You couldn't be more wrong. The ideal response from him as far as I'm concerned would be no response. Truthfully, I very rarely even read his replies. I don't enjoy these back and forths one bit.
All that said, I find the statement that those who have religious beliefs somehow do better in their struggle with TMS not just wrong, but deeply off-putting. Since it seemed that no one else was going to respond, I felt I should.
That stuff concerning the existence of "anectodal evidence" to support his position is utter nonsense.
------------------------------------------------------------------
For those new here, Art and I have a history. Dave expunged one of our liveler exchanges a while back. I stand by what I said and feel Art's response is totaly out of line and inappropriate. I don't feel Art is responding to what I posted as much as to me personaly. I make a point of not responding to Art's posts so as not to stir him up, but if he so rudely attacks me for having a ligtimate opinion I will certainly respond and defend myself. His "response" is not a response but just name calling and invective. He is narrow minded and there obviously is no room in the universe for those who disagree with his anti-religious views or apparently if one has spiritual views also. I will stay away from his posts if he stays away from mine.
Since he found what I said so offensive about religion, I will repeat it:
"I have annecdotely, seen on this board, that those who express religious belief seem to do better. It may tie in with haveing a raison d'etre beyond getting caught up in the secular culture's un-bridled drive for success measured soley on a material scale.
Having a belief in a spiritual power, beyond our-self, perhaps is a source of a power that enables those with a belief system to take the leap of faith to trust their own internal powers to heal."
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Chanuka, Happy Quanza, Happy Winter Solstice or whatever spiritual or religious beliefs you may hold or not and thanks to the free world for allowing us to openly express them.
|
|
|
|
altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 21:33:16
|
| Tom and Art - I was out running today, and I try not to think when I'm running, but today was sunny, and I live in a beautiful place, and I felt like I was in heaven. My Sunday service is my long runs, and I can feel spirit in nature, out there by myself, or sometimes with a friend, running in a park, beach, or remote place. I know you guys both run, and must experience this also. We have a Japanese student in our home, and I talk often to her mother. They practise Shinto, which I thought was a form of Budhhism, but is not. It is the worship of nature. That would be the closest a religion comes to what I feel about spirit. I know it is more than runner's high. Best wishes to you both. |
|
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 08:56:36
|
Hi Al,
Thanks for the nice wishes and sharing your experience. I get that feeling too when I practice at sunset on a warm evening, when everything is quiet. Occasionaly some deer will come by the court I'm practicing on and graze nearby. I joke with myself that they're coaching me. It's the time I feel the most spiritual and connected to the universe.
Best Wished,
tt
|
|
|
|
Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 11:10:11
|
Hi Al,
Automatic Overload...that is sooo appropriate...and that is how I feel alot of the time these days..I have to get that book..Glad it's helping you! :)
Take care,
Karen |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Pain Free for Life by Scott Brady MD
