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kevin t
USA
72 Posts |
 Posted - 12/13/2006 : 12:09:57
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Ive read the posts here today. Havent been here for a while and came back to reading opinions about "politics and religion"? Wow. I mean, as a political activist myself I would surely welcome political debate since it is my passion and so forth. But OH MY STARS, the realisation that this is a forum for TMS just hit me. Im shocked, I actually have the nerve to think that this forum is for discussion of a PAIN SYNDROME. Who would have thought??????
Lets pull back on the political rhetoric and op-ed pieces please. Save it for blogs that encourage dissent or consent. People want to come here to learn about TMS. Not to hear the "fox news" or DAILY KOS talking points being slung around.
By the way, people can be "spiritual" without being "organized". In fact, most of western religions have become the polar opposite of true spirituality. Our socirty is based on STOIC beliefs,"pragmatism", absolutism, and SINGULARISM.
In other words, we took the best that the elitist PLATOIST greeks had to offer, and the best that the IMPERIALIST ROMANS had to offer, and we incorporated it into a country. Throughout history , religion has been the main cause of ABSOLUTISM and a singular "logos"(one truth that binds everything together ,in the greek)
ABSOLUTISM and "pragmatism" gets people killed to "justify the means".
It is the polar opposite of true LIBERATION and freedom. It binds you to the laws that even DEATH justifies PEACE. No wonder our Western cultures have so many "pain syndromes". We live in a system of thought that is anti free thought.
So please, keep your LOGOS(perceived truth of the universe) out of this chat forum. Be you an atheist, deist,christian,muslim,or jew. As a "liberal" I support the freedom of speach of all here, but please dont make this a soapbox for ideology in any way. And please refrain from telling others who post here what THEY should believe to help their TMS. I will be damned if I have to tolerate the dronings of ABSOLUTISM and black and white thinking on a TMS forum, Ive had enough of that for the past 6 years under my current president, so please spare me from your "truths" and stick to TMS theory and science.
THANK YOU |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 14:05:33
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I am responding to Kevin's last post. First, before launching into my support of the spirituality discussion, let me make clear that I myself am not only very much *not* religious but probably would not ever be capable of belonging to a religion, or even following a spiritual mindset. I'm simply far too skeptical (not that I am not declaring this a good or bad thing...just how it is). But to put this in perspective, I hesitated even to read this message board because I initially felt a lot of people here sounded like fanatics of the "Church of TMS". After reading for a few weeks I have come to see that most people here are very thoughtful and open minded and that there is a lot to gain from you thoughts and experiences.
It seems to me, however, that a discussion of whether religiosity has an impact on psychology (and therefore health) *is* very relevant here--despite the fact that is will have no impact on my own beliefs (or lack thereof). Religiosity is a part of most people's psychology. In its most broad sense, irrational faith (in the material world or consciousness of others) is a part of every functioning person's life. But back to the more narrow term of "religiosity"... I include here most atheists (simple materialis) who I find to be as fundamentalist as most other belief groups.
No one here is going to prove anything, but the issues are relevant to TMS or any other question of psychology. I would suggest, perhaps, that they might best fall into a topic called "TMS and spirituality" so they could be ignored by the uninterested, but in fairness to the person who opened this topic spirituality was mentioned right up at the top which was a big hint to anyone uninterested. If I had been uninterested I would have stopped reading there and moved on.
I, however, do find the topic interesting -- despite my own lack of personal interest in spirituality or religiosity.
My only fear (and this is genuine) at this particular moment is that I am using this more abstract discussion to distract myself from more personal TMS issues. :) Then again, as distractions go it doesn't hurt and I just typed out several paragraphs despite the problems I have lately had using a computer. |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 14:12:33
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Alexis said it best.
Kevin T, the subject of religion came up and for the most part is still being discussed as it relates to the psychology of TMS. It's not a purely theological discussion.
Boy, I can tell you're used to arguing.  |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 15:07:09
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I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with Kevin here. There's a lot of mumbo jumbo on the board lately. I've been around for close to 2 years and post relatively judiciously. It's not that I mind religous or political discussions, infact I find some of this hilarous. But it hasn't helped me with my TMS too much, except for the the outbursts of laughter, which is always good.
My suggestion would be to not go off on any long religous or political tirade to vent; talk about religous and political issues that are specifically related to your TMS symptoms and keep it personalized to you. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 20:05:29
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| In THE DIVIDED MIND Dr. Sarno, the theorist behind TMS, refers to a "celestial archetect". Can someone please tell me what/who that is?...I don't think he was refering to Frank Lloyd Wright. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 20:24:10
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Quoteing JG:
"There's a lot of mumbo jumbo on the board lately."
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If that's the case than I think NO books by anyone but Dr. Sarno should be mentioned or discussed on this board. It seems very little of this board discusses the works of Dr. Sarno anymore. Most of it is discussion of a plethora of other authors--probably a distraction from having to read Dr. Sarno and do TMS work. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 20:41:56
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quoteing KT:
"As a "liberal" I support the freedom of speach of all here, but please dont make this a soapbox for ideology in any way. And please refrain from telling others who post here what THEY should believe to help their TMS. I will be damned if I have to tolerate the dronings of ABSOLUTISM and black and white thinking on a TMS forum, Ive had enough of that for the past 6 years under my current president, so please spare me from your "truths" and stick to TMS theory and science."
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Well I guess you can be prepared to be damned then. I had to put up with the drunken blathering of preident blow-job for 8 years. Today's popular religion is "Liberalism" and people die in the streets from it just as well as from any Salem witch hunt.
Liberals support "freedom of speech" as long as they agree with it. Anyone with a notion that goes against the Liberal religion is subject to derision, demonization, name-calling and ostracism, as is so well being proven in this thread.
Just trying to keep things fair and balanced.
Thanks for the synopsis of Western Civilization. I'd forgotten a lot of that stuff since college, it's nice to have a refresher. A slight correction though, I thought this country was founded by people escaping religious persecution. |
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kevin t
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 21:51:56
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Tom, I wasnt going to bite at the bait you set forth , but I will in defense of myself, so here goes.
I see that my post struck a chord within you. Maybe a chord of absolutism and anger rooted in the buzzword politics of western culture (a la sean hannity and rush limbaugh). I realise that the iconoclasts of our western news media have subjected the word liberal to basically be the equivalent of the "N" word.
Sir, my being a liberal is not a subject of shame for me. In fact you may call me a liberal all you wish. The word is a proud banner I wear as a believer in that "little piece of paper" called the constitution. Since I would die for the freedoms of even those that hate me for being a "liberal", I still encourage your dissent against it. I mean after all, those pesky liberal revolutionairies founded this country and sat at the table with the "federalists" to bring a glorious document of free speach to light.
Tom, I have heard all the rantings from thousands of people aimed in my direction about the "evilllzzzz" of being a liberal. I have been a political activist for years. Trust me, Ive been called much worse. But i must remind you tom that by the numbers "liberals" are mostly christians by any reputable poll.And yes Tom, not all "liberals" are "evil atheists and secularists". I know this may be shocking, but trust me. And yes Tom, many of us filthy pinko commie liberals believe in a "grand architect", I do myself.
Which brings me to the "logos" ABSOLUTISM of those that would claim to be the opposite of a "liberal". Please refer to the dictionary for the term "liberal" for understanding of what it means to die for those that would hate you and those who want PROGRESSION in the sciences. Point blank tom, if it werent for the "liberalism" you seem to HATE, we would not even be discussing alternative means of healing. Without progressive or alternative thought, Dr. Sarno I believe would be telling us all to cut our backs open on a surgeons table. Galileo was a "liberal" in his time, he was hung for suggesting that the earth revolved around the sun by the ABSOLUTIST/SINGULARISTS.
But what does this have to do with theories of TMS. Well I can see that you found a kinship with Dr. Sarno because he believes in a "grand architect"(like you and I do ..cough). Thats good, but please dont think that allows you to bash "liberals"(which is not a political party in the first place ...cough) on a site for TMS. How could you ever be so self absorbed to interject insults at someone who disagrees with your "theologies" in a forum for PAIN SYNDROMES.?
The last time I checked, I didnt come here to hear about the ins and outs of ones political beliefs. I seem to remember coming here to hear about things that will help with pain and the science behind that. Why would anyone be so NARCISSISTIC to think that TMS should take a back seat to your IDEOLOGIES? The very notion of that is insulting to me and possibly many that will come here. The very fact that this thread is even being discussed in here , in this context, is an insult to those in pain. Can anyone in good conscience come here to DIVERT attention from the TMS topic. Does it serve a purpose. Is your "belief" more important to new members than seeking out help for their chronic pain? And exactly how does political ideology even find its way to this thread in the first place? Are we going to play politics with TMS now, so people on the left and right ends of the political spectrum can fight like dogs over that bone too? Is TMS a prize to claim like some trophy?
Get real folks, there are people that are in IMMENSE pain that need our help and words if possible.Im one of them. I need YOUR help to TOM. Youve posted many interesting/helpfull words. Please dont interject your hate for my political beliefs when, Im not even here to discuss my politics.
And yes Tom, my "pinko liberal" TMS hurts like your TMS. You see TOM, true liberals love and forgive even when spit on, and we can even ask those that hate us to help. So I will take the higher road and ask for your help by not turning this into a political chat room by proxy.Its up to you to decide.
KEV |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 04:20:17
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quote:
Why would anyone be so NARCISSISTIC to think that TMS should take a back seat to your IDEOLOGIES? The very notion of that is insulting to me and possibly many that will come here.
The very term is all the explanation required. I couldn't agree more...I've been waiting for someone, anyone, to respond with the same sense of outrage that TT would yet again, piously hijack this critically important forum for the purposes of promoting his own narrow-minded political agenda. Were I a newcomer that one post would have been enough to send me running for the hills..What's that you say? I need to be religious, or "spiritual" (how hypocritical the very word becomes out in the mouth of TT) to get better?
I simply cant' understand the lack of anger out there. And Karen, I'm not an atheist. My religious beliefs or lack thereof are completely beside the point.
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 08:04:18
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I'm sorry, Art..I didn't mean to assume you were an atheist..I thought I remembered you telling me so once in an email..I was mistaken..Forgive me..I agree about the off topic conversations on here, btw..Even though I made the mistake once myself when I recommended AL Gore's movie..We should be sensitive to the newcomers who are looking for advice on TMS not on religion or politics..
Hugs,
Karen |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 08:25:40
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You guys are totally amusing me. I'm new here and this hasn't sent me "running for the hills" but given me some much needed laughter. I'm just waiting to see one more person who has themselves made irrelevant political comments give a lecture on how this is not a forum for political rantings. While Art has been pretty good at this (opening with a rant about the affect of religion on war and world politics and then going on to criticise anyone else who he thinks is off topic), I've would give KevinT the award for his brilliant use of the "sandwich" method in his 12/13/2006 post. Opening with a criticisms of those who use the forum for their political ideas, squeezing in a "By the way..." to express his own views, and then closing again with a request that others keep their opinons off the list was one of the greatest examples self delusion I have ever seen. Or does he think the others reading this are too ignorant to notice such a bizarre and hypocritical posting (another type of self delusion, but I will let him work that out for himself)? I seriously say this not in anger but in laughter (ok, occasional irritation—but well worth it for the humor). You guys are downright funny and unless you can see yourselves that way I can only imagine how you suffer.
Don't get me wrong, I feel anger plenty or I wouldn't be here. But your own irrationality and delusion are really what is going to get you guys and you can't even see it. I "should" feel bad for you etc. etc., but really isn't this stuff supposed to be about honesty with your feelings and all? So, as a non-goodist, honestly, you're funny as hell. Thanks for the entertainment. And yeah, take care of yourselves. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 08:32:51
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Art,
Me thinks you protest too much. Since we are bandying about big words how about projection? You've said you have the need for an occasional explosion, and I'm happy that I can serve that purpose for you. I'll stand on my record. Read ALL my posts and you'll see they are almost all on the topic of TMS. I currently have NO TMS symptoms. I have no political agenda--I think all politicians are ass-holes, and anyone who forms a cult around them is a useful idiot as Hitler and Stalin both said. My agenda is all in your head.
I think you are the one who should stay on-topic. I merely defend myself when attacked. If anyone is offended or driven off by what I say, tough--it's only a TV screen. What happens when they go out into the real world and come up against some real adversity? The best thing for them would be to stop looking at this board as support because that is the old paradigm. They should turn-off the screen and open their Sarno.
No one has to read anyone's posts, I personally find these exchanges amusing and lose no sleep over them. If you don't like me, don't read me. There's plenty of others who you can comizeryate with.
The mere mention of religion sets you off. May I suggest doing some TMS work in this area and dig down to the roots of why you feel you need to be the thought police and censor what topics can be discussd on this board.
Happy Holidays
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hiffer
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 09:12:52
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| Alexis, if there was a category for "post of the year"...I think I just might nominate yours. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 09:48:38
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quote:
The mere mention of religion sets you off.
All is now lost. Once I get to the point where I actually read TT's responses, I know I'm in so deep I'm never gettin' out...
No problem Karen. It's an easy mistake to make given my general, what you and TT would call, "secular" approach to things. At least I think that's what you'd call it...
In any case, my problem isn't with the word religion, or anyone's practice of religion, or anything like that. What really got me going was this utter balderdash concerning the supposed existence of "anectodal" evidence that the religious amongst have somehow have a leg up in their struggles with TMS...It's not so much that it's simply made up that bothered me so much as that it was made up by that old reactionary humbug affectionately know to all as TT...
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kevin t
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 09:55:24
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For my next trick, I will be calling on all TMS bloggers to register for the GREEN party. I will also be handing out pamphlets about various weapons treaties and the IAEA. After that, I will rant about how the attrocities in DARFUR affect my TMS if I think about it too much. I would also like to explore how E voting and campaign finance reform give me this weird feeling in my lower back muscles. Did you guys know that watching Dennis Hastert speak can cause TMS to explode without warning? It can also give migraines toooooo. TMS is not approved for use by pedophiles with machine guns or catholic priests with candy. TMS is a registered trademark of JESUS INC. and all copywrite laws apply. TMS is not affiliated with NAMBLA or the NRA and any expressed opinions are solely the views of TMS.
BY THE WAY BY BY THE WAY BY THE WAY
(This message has been approved by kevin, any copy of these transcriptions or the use thereof is punishable by law)
WOMP WOMP WOMP....send in the clowns |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 10:45:33
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Ha! That was funny, too, Kevin. Thanks. Seriously (sort of) it's also funny in a twisted sort of way because while you're mostly joking I think following and caring about world events I have very little control over *does* impact my TMS symptoms (no, I'm not going to tell you which events and politicians upset me!). But the sense of powerlessness and dealing with people we think are "stupid" is a problem I think for a lot of us.
Whatever our views, most of us are sometimes (often?) going to think those on the other side are idiots and are going to be frustrated that we are talking to brick walls. And some of us are going to feel a lot of "shoulds" based on our ideas of what is best for the world and will alter our lives and actions and thoughts in desperate attempts to do what is right for our communities and the world.
I always see people talking about shoulds in terms of family and friends and the like, but for the politically aware and caring (again, of any political bent) the "shoulds" take on a global scale over which you have little control even at your best, and which may do well for the world and yet not be ideal for ones individual well-being (we have evolved little since most humans lived in very small spheres).
So what is the answer if there is any truth in this? Do you give up caring about the world to save yourself? Will pulling back to care about a more limited set of issues help? I do think I personally could change this aspect of my focus in life...but how much? Am I going to face a crisis of identity by realising I'm not as nice and ethical and giving a person as I thought I always would be? Will it make much difference since my inherehent skepticism has always hindered my actions anyway (really, will my pulling back have any impact on any issues I care about anyway...who was I kidding)? |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 11:00:51
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Hey, this thread actually got back on topic...amazing!
I do think the global shoulds are a big problem. I was talking with my boyfriend the other day, and I mentioned that I feel I should know the answers to a lot of these big knotty problems facing the world because I am supposedly smart. I never even realized I thought that -- I knew I was concerned, but not that I thought I should know the answers. He said he felt that way too. And now I see it, I see how out-of-balance it is as an expectation! So I definitely need to get past that illusion. Doing something concrete would be good, and I think that might be the way to approach it -- choose a few things that really fit well for you, contribute, and then try to let go of the rest a bit.
Easier said than done though!
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 11:20:24
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Thanks, armchairlinguist. I think that picking something realistically attainable is a good idea. It's hard when you see how everything is interrelated to pick out one area of focus, and ignore the bigger, or connected issues, but without my hands I haven't been able to help anyone lately anyway. I'm going to work on deciding what aspect of my global interests it is practical to maintain. Not to give the impression I'm now spending my waking hours in political activism--hardly.
I'm even cutting back on reading or watching the news which is a BIG deal for me since I always had a tendency to sort of look down on those who didn't know what was going on in the world. Even though intellectually I know we only know one one trillionth of one one trillionth of all that could be known (and are probably wrong about that) I still feel that when I am missing things I'm ignorant, and that my ignorance is harmful. My plan to pull back and focus on myself is surrounded by the fear that someday in the future I will be asked who the prime minister of India is and I WON'T KNOW. Seriously, to some this may sound stupid, but I don't know how I would handle being what I have historically considered so ignorant.
So no one gets me wrong here, I know this is irrational. And I appreciate that many people know about many things I know nothing about (like botany and opera and lithuanian history to name a few of my many areas of ignorance). But really I do feel one should know the names and terms of every major global economic pact and world leader (for example) and its hard to get over this belief which while fairly core to my identity is both somewhat irrational and damaging to my psyche as it drives me further, as with you, too think I need to be solving the world's problems. And, like you, I know it's ridiculous. I know no one knows the answers and that I'm not so special that I should. But there you have it, eh? |
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kevin t
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 11:42:46
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Alexis,
I disagree, I know EVERYTHING there ever was to know about the planet. Ok, Im not being honest, I know about 2 Billionthsiseses of whats going on.;/
Well I guess world events do affect inner rage. So hmmmmm, is it proper to discuss here? Well, this is a forum for free thought so hmmmm , maybe I was wrong. It hasnt been the first time. Maybe , just maybe, me interjecting the thought that people shouldnt make this political, stifles the part of people that want to express something that might help them.(if my words were taken that seriously).Wow, the dualities and kinetic actions of life are bizarre.
Maybe we should just have a slugfest about our feelings on world events. We could mentally beat the crap out of eachother and then move on. Anyone game for that idea?
My sarcasm gets taken the wrong way many times.;-/
I do believe though that "society" as a whole globally, has taken a huge dump for the worst.All of us are involved, whatever your "beliefs". Such a weird word that is,"beliefs". Well ****, whatever our beliefs , we are all in pain and looking for help. So I guess our "beliefs" dont matter to the TMS monster. He doesnt care about the details.(ever notice monsters are usually refered to as "HE"?) sexual disrimination I sayyyy.....REVOLT MEN.
Anywho, I do notice that ever since I started paying attention to world events and policies ohhh say about 6 years ago(wink wink), my inner rage has become much more broad than the usual.I stopped thinking about me, and started thinking about the world. KUM BAI YA and all that jazz. But alas maties, this has caused more pain and rage. ARRRRRRRR maties, the caring side is a double-edged sword she is. MUTINY I SAYYYYY
So what was I talking about again??????? Oh I remember, yeah TMS sucks and its compounded by the dregs of society that "watch over us". I approve of this message. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 14:07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
I agree with you Al, spirituality is missing not just in medicine and pain management, but also in our culture. I feel this is probably a great source of the increase of TMS in Western industrial society--who needs G-D when we have computers, and gps navagation.
It's just a natural outgrowth of our increasingly secular society. Christmas is even being taken out of Christmas. Little did the person who came up with the contraction "x-mas" know what they were fortelling. I'm not a Christian but I still enjoyed the spirit of the holiday and the respite it offered. Department stores our now even opening on Thanksgiving to get a jump on "black friday"--what a joyous term that is. All our holidays are loseing their original significance and purpose and just becoming excuses to party hardy.
I have annecdotely, seen on this board, that those who express religious belief seem to do better. It may tie in with haveing a raison d'etre beyond getting caught up in the secular culture's un-bridled drive for success measured soley on a material scale.
Having a belief in a spiritual power, beyond our-self, perhaps is a source of a power that enables those with a belief system to take the leap of faith to trust their own internal powers to heal.
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I bumped this up because I don't even remember exactly what started all the ruckus. I thought I was expressing a fairly benign opinion about TMS, religion and sprituality during the holiday season, that celebrates that sort of stuff. I have made a point of keeping out of Art's posts and I invite him to do the same with mine.
So the next thing I know is he's calling be full of b.s, that my opinions are nonsense, and I'm full of crap, etc. I don't think Art is practicing the Socratic method of argument with that kind of rhetoric.
Let me make it clear that it was my SUBJECTIVE opinion. I have been here a while, read the books with attention numerous times, seen the videos, audios, consulted with TMS MD's, Dr. Sarno and Donald Dubin. I have no compunction about offering a personal conclusion on the subject of this site, TMS and whatever I feel may be germaine to it.
If Art or anyone else objects to this, tough. On other sites this is merely called "offering my 2 cents". Some of my other conclusions, are, after being here for quite a while and not having any current TMS symptoms, is that some people with TMS are in such a dump they don't have much of a sense of humor. If you have TMS, you are better off spending your time reading the TMS books than hanging out here and getting all worked-up and picking sides based upon perceived political beliefs. Don't waste time being a psycholgical, self-help junky reading all those OTHER books until you've fixed your TMS problem--they are distractions from TMS work. If you have an accute case of TMS, find a psychotherapist who practices according to the Good Doctor's recommendation--this message board ain't gonna' cure you.
I've set a cut-off date for myself to leave this forum after I finnish TDM. (I'm a slow reader so don't a few people start partying yet and I reserve the right to change my mind too). In the interim I'll do what I've always done, just contribute my 2 cents worth. |
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Pain Free for Life by Scott Brady MD
