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dfl
6 Posts |
 Posted - 08/06/2006 : 20:28:13
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I'm new to this forum, but I'm not new to Sarno's work. I discovered it several years ago and applied it (mostly) to chronic pain that was hampering my weightlifting. At that time my symptoms (hip and back pain) were greatly reduced, but I was and still am really focused on heavy weightlifting (powerlifting and bodybuilding)and so I continued to take nsaids before heavy workouts.
Now, for the past year my neck has been growing stiffer and stiffer. My other problems were pretty much gone, so I basically forgot about tms. But, now that the pain is severally limiting me in the gym, I am focused on it, and it is clear to me that it has all the signs of tms. I am afraid however of quitting the nightly nsaids (4 aleve) and stretching habits which I have developed over the past year to deal with the pain. If i don't take the pills, I am horribly stiff the next morning. Also, the pain, even with the pills, gets especially bad with any exercises that strongly affect my trapezius muscles (i.e. deadlifts, rows, etc.). Do you guys have any recommendations? |
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flyefisher
48 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2006 : 20:46:32
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| Hard workouts carry their own pain. If you do a hard workout, don't take the nsaids and then have the pain fade within a couple of rest/recovery days, then it probably is not TMS. If it lingers then it probably is. |
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dfl
6 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2006 : 22:16:49
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Some of the pain goes away with a few days of rest (of course the rest of my body gets kind of stiff) but my neck is never free of stiffness. I think that is kind of beside the point anyway, because the stiffness is not at all like workout-stiffness-its like neck muscles twitching and, at times, severly limiting my range of motion. stretching my neck intensely seems to provide temporary relief, but it is only temporary, and it is a pain in the ass to spend an hour a day (total) stretching just my neck, and, as I understand TMS, the stretching could be making it harder for me to recover, as it reinforces the notion that there is something mechanically wrong with me.
Truth be told, I have hard time believing my neck problem is purely TMS. That is--it fits all the criteria, I have the personality, and, at least last time I saw a doctor, there was nothing wrong with it that he could find, but, the fact that it gets worse with exercise and that stretching and anti-innflammatories help shakes my confidence in a subtle way. I'm thinking that if I could just quit the nsaids and stretching cold-turkey the problem will just go away, but I am scared to quit. thanks for any help. |
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flyefisher
48 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 01:02:42
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I would suggest getting good medical advice, at least to rule out anything serious. But it sounds like a real likely TMS candidate.
My confidence in TMS grew from the myriad of guesses at a diagnosis. I did the same 1 hour a day of stretching on speculation from my PT that it would relieve me. Largely it did but it never did totally. At one point, I gave up everything, including the stretching, when I figured out it was TMS. I will do strengthening and stretching soon enough when I have a plan that is based on my physical activity and not on healing the injury that doesn't exist.
I had so many uncertain diagnoses and was doing like 2 hours worth of crap every day based on the doctors half-ass work. So I should surrender that much of my life in light of a job, a wife and a child based on a guess? In retrospect it seems nuts.
But I digress. I would seek medical attention to rule out any real injury. But it certainly sounds like a likely TMS case. |
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wolf29
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 07:26:32
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I am into bodybuilding as well and one of my fears was doing certain exercises like deadlifts and squats due to my lower back disc herniation. I finally feel I have beaten TMS as I am deadlifting again without pain. I do stretch but I do that from a fitness point of view. I don't do it as a "cure" for my back problems. If you are doing it because of the pain, along with taking the nsaid, then you're telling your brain that you have a physical problem and not TMS. If you truly believe it's TMS, and I agree with flyefisher to rule out serious issues, then I would not take any type of medication as it only feeds the illusion of it being a physical problem.
My pain has been moving lately to my wrists, neck and shoulders. It comes and go and I know it's not from lifting the wrong way because I pay close attention to form and warmup properly. So it's TMS trying to keep my mind occuppied. Plus the pain will just stop one moment and return the next. If it was a true structual issue, the pain would not just stop and start at random.
Good luck.
Jay |
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dfl
6 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 10:53:28
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| Do you just stop taking the nsaids all at once then? I tried it last night and cold barely stand at 5:00 a.m so I went and took a bunch (more than usual). |
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dfl
6 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 11:03:31
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Also, From reading a lot of the posts here, I'm a little weary of getting advise from you guys--I seem to have a lot less problems than most--even when my back hurts I deadlift more than 500 pounds. I sometimes tell myself that I could just quit demenanding extreme levels of strength from myself and just exercise for "fitness" and then I would be fine, but this is probably not true--I would still be kind of stiff all the time.
As far as getting another diagnosis--I don't have the money/insurance. But I am confident that either the problem is TMS or one of those unorthodox postural diagnosis that Sarno rejects. That is, I have seen normal doctors in the past, and there is nothing they see that is manifestly wrong with my neck--many just tell me that humans, or most of us, weren't meant to lift heavy weights. So, I have tried Sarno's approach, but without 100% commitment, and I have not succeeded, and I have also tried the stretching--posture adjustment approach, and it has had a very limited effect. Handfulls of nsaids solve the problem nicely, but then I am killing my stomach and kidneys.
Do you guys think I would benefit from cutting back a lot on the lifting? I haven't tried this in a while, and it makes sense to normal people to do this, but with Sarno's way, it seems like it might be wrong, because it would reinforce the idea that something physical is wrong. |
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sonora sky
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 11:26:47
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I have been having similar neck issues for the past 3+ months. It is less of a "pain" and more of stiffness and tension. It has been constant, with very little lessening. My range of motion has been severely limited because my neck feels like it is made up of large, thick, taut rubber bands all the way around. I have had a variety of other TMS symptoms in the past (you name it...), but this one has been the most persistent and for the longest, most constant duration of time.
If I force myself to work out, the tightness loosens a bit (almost completely if I swim), and then returns within an hour after finishing. I've seen a chiropractor (before I read Sarno) with no improvement--needless to say, he was baffled! Before this, I was prescribed muscle relaxants, valium, and Tylenol + codine, which gave only minimal--and of course, temporary--relief. Ibuprofin seems to aggrivate it, aleve doesn't do much. Heat/ice don't do much either. I think the TMS gremlin has gotten smarter than the meds.
Whenever my neck lets up slightly, something else starts almost immediately: headache and/or migraine, IBS, itchy skin, allergies, heel pain, etc. Today it's 'wry neck'  (where you wake up with a sharp-shooting pain from your neck down your back and have to keep your head tilted to one side to prevent triggering the sharp pain--these usually last for a day or two. I used to think, "gosh, I must have slept funny or somethiing." Now I know no matter what 'funny' position you sleep in--and I sleep in a pretty normal way--there is no way it could cause this reaction. It has to be TMS.)
But the neck tension has been so persistent, it's hard not to have doubts from time to time. It has come at an especially stressful time in my life with lots of big changes (why do these changes always happen all at once?!?), so TMS *does* make sense. I'm seeing a TMS doctor this week to get a definite 'yes.' |
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wolf29
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 11:36:51
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quote:
Do you guys think I would benefit from cutting back a lot on the lifting? I haven't tried this in a while, and it makes sense to normal people to do this, but with Sarno's way, it seems like it might be wrong, because it would reinforce the idea that something physical is wrong.
I would only cut back if you feel the need for a break due to working out heavy for a long time to give your joints a rest or deload from the heavy stuff.
If you don't feel that way and want to take a break because of fear of further damage, I would say that's not a good idea. I stopped doing the exercises I was told I shouldn't do any more and my back did not improve. I babied my back like you wouldn't believe and it didn't help. I lost so much strength on my squats and deadlifts that it's like starting completely over now.
If you feel it's TMS and you can validate that there's nothing seriously wrong with you physically, I would not cut back. As you said, to do so would be telling yourself it's physical and not emotional. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 12:32:06
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quote:
Originally posted by dfl
Do you just stop taking the nsaids all at once then? I tried it last night and cold barely stand at 5:00 a.m so I went and took a bunch (more than usual).
WARNING TO DFL
Stop taking the Alleves by the handful! I did the same thing a few years ago and lost half my blood and spent three days in the hopital. I passed out on the bathroom floor and when I woke up I had to crawl to the phone and call 911. I chipped my tooth, cracked my head and was real lucky I didn't do any more serious damage from the fall.
There were warning signs a week ahead. But NO stomach pain. I felt weak but well enough to play two tournament matches. I knew something was wrong and even aske acquaintances for a doctor referal since I was on the road playing tournaments.
I got a duodenal ulcer. The symptom is dark "tarry" colored stools. That means you are bleeding internaly. It looks similar to when you eat a lot of choclolate, but it's NOT.
Handfulls of Aleve, dark stools and weakness could well mean ulceration from the pain-kllers.
Don't take anymore than the bottle or your doctor reccommends. Trust me it's easy to abuse them and I did.
The good news is I'm alive and after that scary incedent, my first hospitalizatin ever in over 55 years, I quit all pain-killers and feel NO more pain than I did taking them.
They said in the ER that one of the most frequent causes of hospital visits is ABUSE of painkillers--it doesn't tell you that on the bottle.
Regards,
tt |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 15:14:30
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I second TT.
I, too, abused NSAIDS during my TMS bout to keep on working despite debilitating wrist pain. At the end of years of taking advils daily, I had a stomach that would bloat after every meal.
I was a mess. I was weak and sickly and always cold.
Then, without caring about the TMS I gave up the NSAIDS and cleaned up my diet BIG TIME. After a while, I got strong and healthy again. My skin cleared up, my digestion went back to normal, my hair was shiny again, my blood work was suddenly normal after years of abnormal mineral defenciencies.
Oh, and another thing, 10's of thousand of people DIE every year over NSAIDS. Not something the medical community wants you to believe. Don't believe me? Call 1-800-chemist and ask them for evidence. They've been trying to educate the public for years about NSAIDS and the GI bleeding they cause.
JUST BECAUSE NSAIDS ARE EFFECTIVE DOESN'T MEAN ITS NOT TMS.
dfl, the fact that you say you don't believe 100 percent that it's TMS is stopping you from recovery.
Rule out the serious medical possibilities (although it seems like you've done the work, there) and then get on with your mental work.
Best wishes.
Beth |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 17:06:11
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Hi DFL,
Everything you have posted here has been in regards to your physical symptoms or physical issues. This is pretty normal for newbies to this board. If you want to get rid of TMS pain, the quickest way of doing it is to STOP thinking, talking, and posting about physical issues--and start thinking, talking and posting about EMOTIONAL issues.
That's TMS in a nutshell. The physical symptoms are a cover for deeply rooted emotional issues that are in our unconscious. They serve as a distraction to keep us from dealing with them. It's pretty much the same for everyone. It's normal. A few of us are lucky and enough to have stumbled on TMS theory and able to accept it. As Dr. Sarno says, few people will accept his theory. The pain serves an important psychological function, to keep them from facing difficult issues. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 17:09:52
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Hi DFL,
Everything you have posted here has been in regards to physical issues or symptoms. This is pretty normal for newbies to this board. If you want to get rid of TMS pain, the quickest way of doing it, is to STOP thinking, talking, and posting about physical issues--and start thinking, talking and posting about EMOTIONAL issues. That's TMS in a nutshell.
The physical symptoms serve as cover for deeply rooted unconscious emotional issues. They serve as a distraction to keep us from dealing with them. It's pretty much the same for everyone. It's normal. A few of us are lucky enough to have stumbled on TMS theory and are able to accept it.
Dr. Sarno says, few people will accept his theory. The pain serves an important psychological function, to keep them from facing difficult issues.
Regards,
tt |
Edited by - tennis tom on 08/07/2006 17:21:46 |
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iron511
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2006 : 23:48:52
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DFL,
Your story is a lot like mine. I'am also a bodybuilder -I had back pain for 2 years which eventually went away and now tightness/weakenss in one side of my neck and trapezius muscles for over a year. I'm still in the process of accepting TMS as i have been diagnosed by several doctors as having postural problems, imbalances, and a strain which is very obvious to me when lookin in the mirror and by touch of the muscle. The thing that confuses me is that I, like you, have continued to weightlift through the pain although i continuted to get worse and worse - (tightness spread to my jaw and i got tingling in my face and aches in my eye). I plan on continuing my workouts and just slowly adding intensity and harder exercises as i feel better and accept tms. I'am curious as to how you are progressing...
Andrew
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2006 : 10:07:47
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Hi guys ,
My story is similar
I am not a body builder but I am a martial artist who likes muscular exercices ... I took NSAIDS when It first started a year ago and it did not help my neck at all ... I am struggling witht TMS symptoms including muscle imbalance in the neck, rubber like stiffness and the impression my vertebra are stuck together when I flex my head on one side . I am realising that exercising does not improve nor degenerate the situation ... the pain is still the same and still there ...
I managed to do the TMS work properly for about 4 months and amongst all the treatments I tried ,,, it is by far the stuff that gave me the most intense relief ...I remember that sometimes just after journaling, the stiffness just melted down instantaneously and the range of motion came back 80% to normal, for at least half an hour .... far better than PT, posturology, stretches ... etc etc.
Right now I am struggling with another obsessive episode of 'structural worry' after hearing about a new 'postural approach' a couple of months ago and which made a lot of sens to me ... I tried to follow this therapy at the same time I was doing my TMS work but I JUST lost the TMS ball from sight and now I have a very HARD time to get back to the game .... very difficult to concentrate on emotional issues, to journal on a constant basis.... always filled with obsessive thouhgts...
Well .... I am not happy but there is where I am right now
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Edited by - FlyByNight on 08/20/2006 10:09:14 |
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iron511
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2006 : 17:13:11
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I can relate to alot of the things you talk about. Just out of curiousity what type of postural problem do you think you have?
Like you I'm always tempted to try postural treatments, but what i realized is the stretching/exercises and constant attention to my posture actually made it much worse. Going back into bodybuilding full force also makes me feel worse and i again look at my posture rather then my emotions after workouts as my reason for the discomfort.
Like you when i journal i can feel the tightness in my neck melt away. I probably need to make journaling more of a habbit.
quote:
Originally posted by FlyByNight
Hi guys ,
My story is similar
I am not a body builder but I am a martial artist who likes muscular exercices ... I took NSAIDS when It first started a year ago and it did not help my neck at all ... I am struggling witht TMS symptoms including muscle imbalance in the neck, rubber like stiffness and the impression my vertebra are stuck together when I flex my head on one side . I am realising that exercising does not improve nor degenerate the situation ... the pain is still the same and still there ...
I managed to do the TMS work properly for about 4 months and amongst all the treatments I tried ,,, it is by far the stuff that gave me the most intense relief ...I remember that sometimes just after journaling, the stiffness just melted down instantaneously and the range of motion came back 80% to normal, for at least half an hour .... far better than PT, posturology, stretches ... etc etc.
Right now I am struggling with another obsessive episode of 'structural worry' after hearing about a new 'postural approach' a couple of months ago and which made a lot of sens to me ... I tried to follow this therapy at the same time I was doing my TMS work but I JUST lost the TMS ball from sight and now I have a very HARD time to get back to the game .... very difficult to concentrate on emotional issues, to journal on a constant basis.... always filled with obsessive thouhgts...
Well .... I am not happy but there is where I am right now
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2006 : 18:39:16
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quote:
Originally posted by dfl
Truth be told, I have hard time believing my neck problem is purely TMS ... the fact that it gets worse with exercise and that stretching and anti-innflammatories help shakes my confidence in a subtle way.
This type of thinking comes up many times in this forum and it represents a fundamental lack of understanding about TMS.
Please re-read Dr. Sarno's explanation of how conditioning plays a major role in TMS symptoms.
Symptoms get worse with exercise because you are conditioned to believe that exercise brings on the symptoms.
Anti-inflammatories help partially due to their analgesic qualities (not necessarily because there is inflammation) and partially due to the placebo affect. If you take Aleve before you go to sleep, by the time you wake up, most of the drug has left your system. The ensuing pain and tightness is likely to be TMS.
Just because symptoms are brought on by certain physical activities, or relieved by certain other activities or drugs, does not mean it is not TMS. In fact, it makes it more likely to be TMS.
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Gecco
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 09:18:12
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| Dave has some good insight here. Getting off the NSAIDs is tough, when you believe you need them to control pain. I had some problems as a result of NSAIDs and was on them for years (aleve). Finally made the break and the pain was the same and gradually got better. Conditioning is a huge part of TMS, where fear of recurrent pain gradually restricts many activities. The fear of the pain becomes a syndrome in and of itself. It can be hard to break out of, but I recommend being patient and gradually recurring to normal activities. Relapses are extremely discouraging and really add fire to the doubt that gives TMS its strength. Expect some setbacks and try not to be discouraged - beating TMS can take a while. I wish everyone good luck in tackling this persistent syndrome. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 10:30:20
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quoteing Gecco:
"Dave has some good insight here. Getting off the NSAIDs is tough, when you believe you need them to control pain. I had some problems as a result of NSAIDs and was on them for years (aleve). Finally made the break and the pain was the same and gradually got better."
------------------------------------------------------------------
That was my experience also. I quit taking aleves about three years ago after they gave me an ulcer and resulted in three days in the hospital, my first ever in 58 years.
If you have TMS pain, then they serve largley as a placebo effect. I now feel no more pain after having stopped taking them. I rarely take pain killers, unless it is a blood and guts injury or a rare headache once or twice a year.
Because they are so cheap and plentiful they are easily abused. The tennis courts are littered with them. A little known fact is that their abuse is one of the top reasons for hospital room visits. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 08/21/2006 15:15:11 |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 15:38:41
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Hi dfl,
quote:
Originally posted by Gecco ...snip... Conditioning is a huge part of TMS, where fear of recurrent pain gradually restricts many activities. The fear of the pain becomes a syndrome in and of itself....
Fear is TMS' favorite ally. TMS uses and magnifies your fear to do its bidding. Basiclly it is using you against yourself.
I made my break when I finally made this connection (at the time I was not fully Sarno-aware). This was the ah-ah moment in my recovery and things only got better from that day forward.
The stretching, the NSAIDS,,,, anyTHING you physically do is not going to help you in the long run. Maybe lay off the gym for a while, or don't train quite so hard for a period of time.
Have no fear. The pain is benign and will not really harm you. Explore your feelings and try to identify your inner rage. Journal. Do the TMS work and do not fear any pain you have. Be patient and take the long term approach, don't put yourself on some sort of time table for recovery (that will doom you).
Its going to take time, let it. You have nothing to lose but your pain.
Sarno rocks!
Take care, -Stryder |
Edited by - Stryder on 08/21/2006 15:43:38 |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 16:05:03
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| Very helpful insights here..I struggle with this one myself... |
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quitting nsaids and stretching
