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hsb
149 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2006 : 05:05:59
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Hi All. Been awhile since I've posted. I have been doing alot of miles lately and have been somewhat injury free. I had a scare with some calf strain but it went away without me having to take any time off from running.
I ran 10 miles on Sunday and in the last 3 minutes of the run I started feeling achilles pain. I chose to ignore it. I ran on Tuesday and Thursday and it is not so great. So I haven't run since Thursday - took Friday and today off. I want to run on Friday but alas I am scared. I always seem to have the inner battle - is it TMS or a real achilles thing? How does one discern this? To run or not to run? Will I make it worse? I know I have been obsessing about it. The battle rages within me. If I do run, maybe it will get worse, if I don't run I'm giving in to it.
I suppose I could take a week off from running to see if there is some improvement - if not, then i know it is TMS?
It's funny when I had the bout of calf pain, I didn't really make a big deal out of it and it went away quickly. For some reason, I am very scared with the achilles pain and I'm thinking I need treatment, PT. Achilles tendonitis is a rough injury for runners - it can debilitate them for months and months.
Any suggestions.
Thanks
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 06:03:00
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It's just not as big a deal as you think it is hsb...No harm in going the conservative route...Take a few days, see how it feels. YOu're "catastrophizing." True, an Achilles injury can be tough, but I've been running for 30 years, and every bout of Achilles pain has gone away with a little rest...Once I took a week off, but other than that a few days have done the trick...
If you're really frightened, it's not worth running with in my opinion.
P.S. Stop reading about Achilles injuries on the Internet...
Edit: I know I side-stepped the question you asked. I think all runners struggle with the same issue. I think it's important to be aware of your own patterns when it comes to pain/injury...I think it's more likely that something outside the norm is more likely to be "real." |
Edited by - art on 07/29/2006 08:54:06 |
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altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 10:04:22
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I had some similar calf pain, that went into my achilles. In the midst of a long run, I stopped to stretch, realized that it was my mind trying to get me stop, and I smiled about it. It was gone in the next few minutes, after a short walk and introspection. The pain is real, and it is tms. Runners tend to obsess. Accept that the pain is there, "make space for it", don't worry about it. It will go away.
Are you training for an event? I find "the little me" tries to defeat my training by causing distractions, particularly if I really want to do well. Monte Heuftle is a very competitive runner, with
similar experiences, you can read about him at www.runningpain.com
Cheers! |
Edited by - altherunner on 07/29/2006 10:06:12 |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 10:55:54
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thanks Al and Art. Yes we runners tend to obsess. Funny 2 weeks ago I ran 15 miles on a Sunday. Tuesday I had really bad calf pain on my left leg and panic set in. By the weekend the pain was gone. BUT I ran 10 miles on Sunday and as I said the last 3 minutes the achilles pain started in the RIGHT LEG. I ran on tuesday and Thursday. Took off Friday and Today. So I basically 48 hours + of no running. I am going to try a 10 miler tomorrow. If that doesn't go well like you said Art, I will take next week off and not run. If the pain doesn't seem to improve by resting, then I'll know.
I am thinking what is bothering me and I think I know. My best friend is very very aloof and the only time I get to see her is when we run. She has 2 young children and is a single mom. When I am "injured" and that is often in all my years of running (which I feel was TMS), I don't get to see her. She is too busy with her life. Sometimes I feel that I don't do the things that are better for me, i.e. take care of me first rather than pleasing others. But if I get injured, there goes my chane to be with my friend. If we don't run --- we don't see each other and only email. That's the way it is. And i think I am stressing over this
Plus the "runners conundrum" i call it - If I run, there is a chance of making the "injury" worse. And perhaps stopping running is giving in to the TMS.
Al -- i am not training for anything. I have been running about a year now without any "major injuries" or breaks. This is a minor miracle for me. My history is of constant runners injuries so i am incredibly thankful to have this year. A few niggles here and there but nothing to take me off the roads. I hope this foot thing doesn't do that.
Al and Art I know you can relate. I will rum tomorrow and then assess.
Thanks for your advice
HSB |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 11:03:52
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hs,
For what it's worth, I do agree with Al that's it's probably TMS..At
the same time, one wants to be careful.
The important question for me is, how much worse does the pain get when I run...? If it doesn't increase in severity, I pretty much figure I'm ok...
Since becoming this TMS person over a year ago, I've had a bunch of what I used to term over-use injuries..Whereas in the past I would have taken time off to rest, I've successfully ignored evry one...
Let us know how you do!! |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 11:37:33
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Art-
Thanks. I will give the 10 miler a go tomorrow. I will let you know how it goes. I too believe all of my past injuries is/was TMS. Every time I got some pain, it lasted months and at the same time trying every treatment and stopping running. I've gone a year so far without having to stop. The fear is still within me that this one is going to be the one that puts me out of commission. My past history is of taking months and months off. Old fears still haunt.
Thanks.
HSB |
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flyefisher
48 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 13:55:03
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Amazing to read all this, I have the same experiences with my bike racing training. The emotional investment in such pursuits is very high. And we do these sports with such passion because we love it so much. But that emotion is what can make it a bit hard to control. I myself can be quite rigid and obsessive which can make the TMS worse, i.e. "oh no, if I don't train, I won't be fit enough for next season" and so the TMS pain gets worse. I've yet to figure out how to enjoy it and go with it without the obsession setting in. It's hard to really love something or someone and not go overboard...
Having said that for me most times the cycling makes it better. Sometimes I have pain a day later. When I was living under the 'physical' injury impression, cycling became a common culprit in my mind. Recently I've actually used riding twice to assuage the pain. I am trying to think of riding as therapeutic in my mind. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Many of my fellow racers are former marathon guys. If you're not into riding bikes... But if you are, I tell you there is the same drive and thrill with endorphins etc. assuming you don't ride with the grannies. The non-load bearing nature of it makes it a very safe sport into late age.
Good luck. Try not to obsess. We athletes understand the mental game. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 21:31:16
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hsb--I've been running for almost as long as Art, but don't think I have ever had an achilles problem. I've had a lot of the other common runner stuff, but not that.
The fact that you had the problem in the left leg first and then the right leg (all in the same week) seems to make it suspicious for TMS. Still, I don't see any harm in at first taking the conservative route (resting a few days) just in case. And then when you run again, start with lower mileage for a week or so. Even though you are not training for anything at present, sounds like you are doing fairly long runs (10,15 miles at a time). Do you do this kind of mileage every day or just once or twice a week?
I recently started a running experiment: For most of my 28 yrs of running I have run VERY irregularly. I might not run a step for a few weeks and then abruptly start training for a marathon. Even when marathon training, I typically haven't run more than 2-3 days a week. And I have had chronic injuries of one sort or the other for most of my running years (hamstring tendonitis, I-T Band, Plantar Fascitis...). Well, last month I decided to try an experiment. What if I ran every single day? Believe it or not, I don't think I have ever run more than 3-4 days in a row. Well, this is my 24th day of daily running and my legs feel much better than they do with only occasional running. It's true that my daily mileage has been very low, but I think there might also be something about the daily workout that toughens the muscles and tendons that sporadic running doesn't--even though the total mileage might be the same. I wonder what others think about this. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 03:57:54
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Wrld Trv.
I have been running the same mileage for months --- tues thurs sat i would run between 6 and 8 miles and sundays i would run 10. been doing that for about 8 months. just recently i increased my sunday runs 11, 13 and 15 because i was thinking of doing half marathon.
according to monte - we associate the running with the pain. i guess i find i hard not to as this is basically all i've been doing. i am battling this alot. i have had this pain for a week. perhaps monte and dr. sarno mean "chronic pain", i.e. pain that lasts longer than the usual course of an "injiury". so if this doesn't go away in a few weeks, then i know it is TMS???
great job on your month running streak.
i am going to try the 10 miler today. if it really bothers me - i will take the advice you and art gave me -- to rest a week.
in the past most of my injuries lasted months and months and that is why i knew it was TMS - they didn't respond to rest and treatments. i honestly don't want to start that all over again ........ in the past, rest and treatments never helped.
i will report back after the run this morning.
thanks for your opinion.
hsb |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 04:40:30
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hs,
Don't know your age, but 6 days a week is a lot of running....I used to do that in my 20's and early 30's, but even for that age I think it was a lot..
I think the runner's body needs to rest a couple of days a week...
wrld, that's quite interesting. As I'm 55 now, I've been taking two days off between runs....I cross train on my days off generally...Yesterday I decided to take only one day off. It was in the mid-90's which I just love, so I couldn't pass it up...I was actually surprised how well I ran...
So maybe there's a middle-ground I need to explore..
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flyefisher
48 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 07:12:33
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In my cycling training I rode 6 days per week. However, at most 2 of those could be "hard" days, i.e. long mileage and/or rigorous. Two days were extremely light - barely working up a sweat. On the bike it's easy to pedal real gently and coast a lot. The body needs more time to adapt to the high-end training than the high end training. It really works for advancing performance and endurance. Many go hard all the time thinking they'll naturally get better because they did so much work. But in the end they end up overtrained and not performing well.
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 12:40:08
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Guys, sorry if I wasn't clear - I only run 4 days week. Not sure how you got 6. I'd love to run 6 days a week .... but I know my body couldn't take it. I run three six milers and a ten on Sundays for a total of 28 miles per week.
Today I ran my ten miler. I am not sure it is achilles pain now. Seems like it is the inside of the leg and over the ankle and into the foot. Shinsplint??? I ran the 10 miles trying not to focus on it. The pain wasn't bad enough to stop me in my tracks. But I am feeling it now. Soooooooo ..... not sure what to do now. I won't run again until Tuesday. I really tried not to focus on the pain at all but it was there. Maybe I can run through this and tell the gremlin that you aren't fooling me.
Will report back how i'm doing.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 17:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by hsb
Guys, sorry if I wasn't clear - I only run 4 days week. Not sure how you got 6. I'd love to run 6 days a week .... but I know my body couldn't take it. I run three six milers and a ten on Sundays for a total of 28 miles per week.
Today I ran my ten miler. I am not sure it is achilles pain now. Seems like it is the inside of the leg and over the ankle and into the foot. Shinsplint??? I ran the 10 miles trying not to focus on it. The pain wasn't bad enough to stop me in my tracks. But I am feeling it now. Soooooooo ..... not sure what to do now. I won't run again until Tuesday. I really tried not to focus on the pain at all but it was there. Maybe I can run through this and tell the gremlin that you aren't fooling me.
Will report back how i'm doing.
THis sounds like your absolutely typical, wandering, vague TMS stuff....I have rogue pains (let's call them) all the time...they come and go, now in this place, now in that, waxing and waning in intensity in a way that seems quite random...For the most part I've learned to ignore them...
Friday I played golf and for the entire round my ankle hurt..It twinged with nearly every step...In the past I would have worried..Now I'm able to just blow this stuff off...I knew it would be gone in an hour, or a day, or maybe two at the most, and I was right..Next morning, nothing.. |
Edited by - art on 07/30/2006 17:01:22 |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 23:03:28
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Art--I always thought the same thing...that runners should take at least a couple of days off per week. I've always taken a lot more than that. But this experiment is quite interesting in that I really do feel better than if I run only occasionally. The hamstring tendonitis that I have had chronically for years hasn't been bothering me at all for the past several weeks with daily running. I admit that I'm running low miles, an average of 3/day though sometimes more. And I have been very careful to be gentle with the stretching. I know the latest studies debunk stretching, but I actually enjoy it. And since I have always been extremely stiff, I enjoy the challenge of trying to increase my flexibility over time.
As for age (I'm 52), I can't say I see much difference for me. I'm the same weight I was 30 yrs ago and I really feel the same, just as energetic, etc. I know someday that will change, but I'm in no rush.
This experiment is making me think that the way I've always handled running; going from no running to marathon training instantly, is probably not as healthy as more regular running. And every single day is no problem as long as the mileage is low.
Another welcome surprise is that I think the daily running is helping my mood. Not a huge difference, but at least a mild antidepressant effect. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 07:06:07
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hey wrld,
I'd love to run every day, and I suppose if I cut my mileage to 2 or 3 per day I could..which might not be a bad thing...But on the other hand I'd miss those longer runs...Now for me these days a longer run might be 7 miles, but it still feels long, and that's the point I guess..I just love that feeling of being wiped out at the end...Like a drug, only legal....
Wednesday it's supposed to be 99 and humid around here...I can't wait..,,,It's a sickness I suppose, but not a bad one I don't think...
At 55 I've seen a lot of changes...for the very first time in my life I've put on a little weight...I've also lost speed...That's ok though....changes are inevitable, it's how we deal with them that counts...My goal is to get whatever I can out of this old bod, right up to the limit of what's possible for me...I never get there of course, but I'll never give up trying.
Happy trails..
A.
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Edited by - art on 07/31/2006 07:06:56 |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 11:32:59
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Hey Art-
Good for you. I am with you regarding the long runs. I get the "runner's high" that's for sure. It will be 100 degrees here tomorrow (Northern Virginia) and I can't wait to sweat as well. But now I am trying really hard not to obsess about these pains. Assessing after the 10 miler yesterday I definitely did not have any pain that stopped me in my tracks but the pains are definitely there.
Again the dilemma - running injury or TMS. I tend to obsess about the aches and pains because running means so much to me and for years and years of all of my "running injuries" which I feel were TMS, I don't want to blow a great thing - ONE YEAR OF NON-STOP RUNNING. 2006 - so far a complete log book!!! I had my share of niggles this year but I was able to get through them. I am not sure why this one isn't going away. I am not going on the internet (which i normally do) and I am not going to go to a dr. who will recommend PT. That's baloney.
I might have to just take some time off which I am battling.
Thanks Art.
hsb
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 23:39:28
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I agree with you, Art and hsb, about long runs. I prefer them too and will probably return to them when I decide to end this daily running experiment. I definitely crave the feeling of being wiped out after a long run, especially on a very hot day, the hotter the better (I grew up in AZ so it's in my blood). But I can get the same effect on a shorter run simply by running faster.
I don't know what you guys think, but I find running gives me a good feeling better than any other exercise. I don't get the same feeling after a bike ride, lifting wts, or hike. Water sports might be the exception. I love anything around water. Swimming gives me the same high that running does.
The great thing about running, and probably the reason I've done it so long, is that I can do it anywhere, anytime, w/out special equipment or expense. It's simple and basic. I hope to be doing it at some level for the rest of my life. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 03:31:08
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I find the hardest thing for me is to discern whether the pain is a real injury or TMS. I have read Monte's book as well as Dr. Sopher's. The biggest hurdle for me is deciding to stop running or to continue to run with the pain. I guess I don't understand TMS because I still believe that runners do get injured. Even world class runners have to stop with injuries.
I am wondering if chronicity is the way to discern. If a pain lasts longer than the supposed time period for something to heal? That is why I battle running or not running through my current pain in my foot.
i look back over my running career and in my history I have had so many "injuries" but they never ever healed with the usual time period.. And that is after trying every treatment imaginable. That is the reason I don't want to stop running. If you go by my past history, a week off won't do anything.
I am trying not to obsess. Most runners can understand this dilemma. We don't want to stop even for a week!!!!
It is funny how 2 weeks ago after my 15 miler I had calf pains and they went away pretty quickly. This foot pain is kind of different. It hurts by teh achilles and on top of the foot. I haven't been able to get rid of this pain. I did get very scared with the calf pain but it went away. Because I have had this pain for over a week, I get scared.
My rant for today!!!
Hsb
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weatherman
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 10:45:13
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Achilles pain is a subject near and dear to my heart as my first bout happened back in 1984. I'm happy to say that I've gained a real handle on it over the last 2-1/2 years (knock on wood) now that I'm about to turn 50. Like you I was concerned about whether it was a "real" injury - it is never discussed in any great detail in the TMS books as far as success stories etc. My passion is hiking and skiing up mountains which conventional medical types will tell you strains the achilles.
I've known a few people that have torn them - all playing basketball -and it looks like the most miserable injury you could have. For this reason I've consistently worked on keeping mine stretched, but I DON'T think about it in terms of pain prevention, only injury prevention. Make no mistake, a tear is a real injury.
Since I started doing my part for injury prevention, I've pretty much disregarded the pain aspect with good success. A good case in point is that a couple of weeks ago my left achilles had been nagging me to the point where I noticed it during daily walks of ~3 miles on mostly flat ground. My solution: the following weekend I did an off-trail hike involving 5,000 feet of vertical. And guess what - the achilles never bothered me. This kind of apporach has worked several times, where in the past I could have made myself crazy for weeks or months resting a supposed "injury."
Some purists may disagree with me on this, but my advice would be to do your part by keeping it stretched, but beyond that don't worry about it. The conventional advice about achilles treatment will only make you crazy and depressed - it is some of the most hopeless sounding stuff you'll ever read. I think I have a kinship with runners, in that REST is the foulest 4-letter word I know. If I had rested 6 weeks every time I felt discomfort in my achilles I'd be a complete couch potato and probably weigh 300 pounds.
Hope this helps - I believe I have all of the TMS books, but I'm still waiting to see one with an achilles "tendonitis" anecdote. I am convinced that the achilles stuff is TMS and I do have the personality traits in spades.
Weatherman |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 12:36:46
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Ok. This might be a stretch but here goes. I kind of think that when my other running friends get some sort of injury (and I do feel it is inevitable if you run big miles) they have a different reaction to injuries and pain than I do, one with the TMS personality. I feel that they don't obsess and take it as it comes and are okay that it might take time for it to heal. I know for myself a a TMS'er that as soon as I get a pain, that I panic because I don't want this to be another one of those chronic "no one can cure" injuries after treatment after treatment.
My friends seem to be okay with the injury and with the pain - they don't have the TMS personality. And their pain goes away in the general "normal" time frame to heal. It is us TMS'ers that get the chronicity.
Do you guys think I'm off base here?
Thanks |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 12:37:11
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quote:
I've consistently worked on keeping mine stretched,
Different paths for different folks, but I would not recommend stretching the Achilles...It's a tendon, and not only are you not helping it in my opinion, you can even damage it by stretching it...
Stretching before a run has been largely shown to be a net negative...What works for me, and what I believe has general applicability to the Achilles tendon, is to build up steam slowly...
Baseball players routinely tear their Achilles because they go from a dead stop to full out running in an instant...This clearly is not good...
hsb, if you've got a history of injuries that don't heal in the usual time, that to me would make them suspicious...Yes, runners do get hurt, but not nearly as often as we're led to believe..
One thing that might encourage you..I had fairly intense, intractable foot pain for months...I finally decided "screw it" this is TMS, there's nothing wrong with my foot...I ran in pain for weeks, but gradually it went away...It tok a long time, but once I saw that I could run without my foot falling off or anything, I became quite confident that nothing bad was going to happen...
If you're prone to TMS, then I think a reasonable assumption with most things that come your way is TMS..
Edit...I do agree with that hs...We TMS'ers obsess an d worry about evry little thing....I think it's part and parcel of the disorder..IN order for us to heal, we need to lose our fear...It's an ongoing struggle for me I can tell you that, but I can also attest to the fact that one can definitely make substantial progress..I just don't think there's much that's as destructive to our health and well-being as obsessive worry and fear.. |
Edited by - art on 08/01/2006 12:50:55 |
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achilles pain
