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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
 Posted - 09/14/2004 : 15:22:59
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| Yes, I am certain that the sciatica that I experience in my left leg and foot and buttocks is TMS based and is caused by conditioning although it took me years to discover this and to really believe it and to believe 100% in Sarno.....Running very rarely did cause any extra pain -- even when I first returned to it after my sciatica started (20 years ago). I would feel weakness in the left leg when I would begin the run, but it would be gone after half a mile or less.....Any pain that I had I would just tolerate and work through except in those rare occasions when it became severe.....I never really stopping running except for a period of several months that I stayed in bed and took it easy after my initial problem with back spasms....I did drop out of karate (had been in it for 10 years) because of the leg pain, but I should never had done this...was worried that the snappy and high kicks would "damage" my spine.....I have returned to hitting and kicking the heavy bag hanging in my garage about once a week and it feels great and brings substantial pain relief (when relief is needed)for many hours. |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 16:37:43
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What do you mean by hitting the heavy bag brings you pain relief? Are you still experiencing sciatic pain?
Sorry if these are obtuse questions - just a bit confused
thanks |
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menvert
Australia
133 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 18:03:45
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I haven't read the book, but looking at this thread it seems like;
yes , this book would not be appropriate to someone new to TMS.
But one very good point is in the process of living with chronic pain many of us lose our muscle tone significantly...
I know for me yoga and swimming and lifting weights provided major benefit from the point of view of reconditioning/toning/strengthening muscles which had wasted away due to taking notice of doctors early on telling me to lay off physical activity, relating to pain(I don't think I would have sunk so deep had I not been recommended to stop using affected body parts). Although once I have given myself back reasonable muscle tone I generally have to stop because yes it is reinforcing physical ideas...
I now have a better Dr who even when I get a new pain, recommends I do not reduce my activity whatsoever despite the pain(which I entirely believe because in letting your muscles atrophy on top of your pain can be the worst thing you can do and I did do :( )
So this book does look very good for when you are basically over the psychological part and ready to rebuild your body...(or in cases where your body is so severely weakened from in-activity that you are not going to be able to even attempt to push through your fear).
As long as you know you're doing it not because of the pain, but because of everybody's requirement to maintain their body.
PS : one another note, due to my knee pain I have still not gotten over my fear of walking, let alone running. But I can ride my bicycle without any difficulty.. building up my confidence slowly
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My TMS = diagnosed with fibromyalgia - forearm & hand tendonitis - vocal cord muscle tension dysphonia - bad back/knee also IBS & acid reflux |
Edited by - menvert on 09/14/2004 18:06:04 |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2004 : 20:44:32
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My main problem with Dr.Egoscue's program as it relates to TMS is as follows:
Chiropractic theory says back and other pains are due to bone misalignments which occur for a number of reasons ranging from whiplash to being born with them. The way to correct the misalignment is to physically manipulate the spine or joint by an "adjustment" which puts the bones back in alignment and relieves the pain.
Dr. Egoscue's theory says back and other pains are due to bone misalinments which occur from wrong posture and unatural muscle tension. This causes the muscles to pull the bones out of alignment causing pain. The way to correct the misalignment is by doing a set of specific exercises that will correct the imbalance in muscle use and pull the bones back in alignment relieving the pain.
The main belief in both systems is the same, namely that the pain is due to bone misalignment. If this is correct then TMS theory is wrong and vise versa. The only difference between Egosque and chiropractic is how the bones get misaligned and how to get them realigned. |
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Jim D.
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2004 : 11:38:07
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| If Farmer Ed's explanation of these two other theories is correct, then I don't see how someone who has TMS can (or should) pay attention to them. From reading about the recurrent TMS pain reported on this message board, it seems to me that every one of us needs to be on guard against falling into the "it might be structural" trap. In my own case, I sometimes think I have conquered a pain, only to have it return; I doubt that TMS ever goes away completely. Surely if a person is concerned about building strength after a long period of disabling pain, there are many other approaches than Dr. Egoscue's. There are many books on the tried and true combination of aerobic exercise and strength training (for examaple, Clarence Bass has a series of books and a website; for older people, there is the Gray Iron Fitness website). |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2004 : 06:08:58
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I just tried to condense down Egoscue's theory to its basic concept. Check out the following quote from the Egoscue website to see if what I said isn't correct. They start by evaluating your posture to see if it deviates from the "blueprint" described below. The reason it deviates is bad posture that has misaligned joints which in turn affects "joint mechanics" producing pain.
The Egoscue website says:--"The "blueprint" we speak of is one that is familiar to all health professionals—the standing normal anatomical position. In the sagittal plane, the axis of the hip, knee and ankle joints are directly aligned. The head sits evenly between the shoulders and the hips are level. In the coronal plane, the mastoid process should sit directly over the shoulder joint; the shoulder, hip, knee and ankle joints should be vertically aligned. In the transverse plane, there should be no rotation of the torso on a fixed pelvis. There should be no rotation of the humerus, femurs or shank outside what is considered appropriate in the literature.
An individual whose body deviates from this design must do so for a reason. That reason is, (in cases not involving past trauma), a muscular imbalance in strength and/or flexibility. Standing posture, for the sake of argument is a static position. It provides essential information to the therapist in predicting what the body will do dynamically. These predictions can be confirmed and often reinforced by observing the patient’s gait. Because postural and structural changes occur over time, the length-tension relationship of the muscles is part of that change. Also occurring as a part of that change is atrophy of the unstimulated muscles and compensation by other muscles and muscle groups. These postural changes then begin to directly impact joint mechanics"
I had time to read more on the Egoscue website today while I was stuck inside watching the rain from Ivan pound us(7+ inches so far). The more I read on it the more I'm convinced it is in complete conflict with Dr. Sarno and TMS theory.
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Edited by - FarmerEd on 09/16/2004 16:49:53 |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2004 : 09:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Suz
What do you mean by hitting the heavy bag brings you pain relief? Are you still experiencing sciatic pain?
Sorry if these are obtuse questions - just a bit confused
thanks
Yes -- I still have periodic sciatic pain, but I am glad to say that it is about 80% better, and I attribute this wonderful improvement to "religiously" following Sarno's advice -- I experience less severe pain, less frequent pain, and less duration time - the latter is because I can chase the pain away (usually) by a combination of thinking about what is angering me at the moment, trying to release the anger, disputing thoughts of the structural, disputing thoughts that an activity has caused the pain, and bringing up mental images from my list of traumatic events that have occurred throughout my life. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 08:27:14
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Disclaimer: I know nothing about Egoscue, and have not read his material.
I assume Egoscue believes that unnatural muscle imbalances lead to structural changes. Who knows, this might be true. If a person sits hunched over at a computer for 8 hours a day for many years, his structure may well adapt to that position.
However, who is to say that those structural changes cause pain? I think this is the key conflict between Egoscue and Sarno.
Our bodies are very adaptive. They will adapt even if we do things to them that our bodies are not necessarily "designed" to do. It doesn't mean those adaptations lead to pain.
The main reason I think Egoscue conflicts with TMS theory is that it forces you to focus on the physical. This is in violation of one of the cardinal rules of TMS treatment. If you've reached a certain point in TMS recovery, and want to try the Egoscue exercises, it should not be a problem, provided that you view the exercises as part of an overall goal towards better fitness, and not as a treatment to relieve pain. |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 06:24:53
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Dave wrote: "The main reason I think Egoscue conflicts with TMS theory is that it forces you to focus on the physical. This is in violation of one of the cardinal rules of TMS treatment. If you've reached a certain point in TMS recovery, and want to try the Egoscue exercises, it should not be a problem, provided that you view the exercises as part of an overall goal towards better fitness, and not as a treatment to relieve pain."
I agree Dave, but I think, given the nature of the program, that the person should be realitively free from pain before trying Egoscue. If a person is still seeking to relieve their pain it would be very hard not to associate the exercises in this program as a way to correct a physical problem to relieve the pain.
In Sarno's book MBP on page 164 Sarno explains why he stopped prescribing PT, "Many years ago I stopped prescribing physical therapy as part of the treatment program for TMS. Although the physical therapists were wonderful about emphasizing the psychological basis for the pain, each treatment session focused the patients attention on his or her body, which was incompatible with my primary theraputic goal of ignoring the physical and concentrating on the psychological. The same idea applies to any exercise routine designed to treat the back, whether it is in the form of stretching, strengthening or mobilizing."
The physical therapists Sarno used for a while emphasized his program while working with the patients so you would think they would have been helpful, but because they focused on exercises designed to fix a percieved problem they were counter productive. Egoscue's program is designed to fix a structural problem. People come to him trying to find a way to relieve pain, not seeking a general fitness program. This makes his program counter productive to someone still seeking pain relief through Dr. Sarno and TMS theory. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 09:37:16
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I agree with those that feel the Egoscue exercsies are incompatible with Sarno's TMS theory. I may have been the first to mention Egoscue on this board and Gary may have heard about it from me. I have read Pete's books and liked what I had read. He has an excellent knowledge of the human body and the kinesthetics of how it works. I liked the fact that he believes the body can heal itself with out invasive methods such as hip-replacements. What especially resonated with me was what he said about the hip joint, my TMS major physical focus. Egoscue writes that cartelege can regenerate if allowed to. I LIKED THAT THOUGHT. That idea was, and may still be, contrary to current medical thinking. Recently, with the popularization of glucoseamine-chrondroitin, the ability to regenerate cartlege is discussed more frequently. Most doctors now reccommend it--I think because they are desparate to give their patients some hope--nothing they do is helping cure the pain permanently.
I think Egoscue's program is a great PHYSICAL therapy program. But it does approach pain from a physical view. It emphasizes alignment. A recipe of exercises are reccommended to fix the muscles that are out of alignment.
TMS deals with the psychology of pain. I agree, with those, that feel dwelling on physical solutions is CONTRARY to TMS methods. That is not to say we cannot speak about physical aspects of our recovery or exercise tips, but they are tangental to the psychological work. |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 13:47:56
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“WELL SAID GENTLEMAN”
I have been refraining from commenting on this topic BC/ I am in the same camp of thinking yet my words don’t always come out as I wish to understood.
GREAT EXPLANATION GUYS
But I still need to say something and you could take it two fold. Gary has helped me understand much of what I needed to change. (About myself). And I am still working on it
If I can refresh your memory back in the post heading s “intelligent people ask: is the evidence any Good page 11
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=80
and “everyone’s different” page 9covers
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=94
much of what the intent of this conversation is all about.
This I believe is where we where asking Gary to expound on and share his knowledge with us.
With all due respect, We do respect his Knowledge, as Iron sharpens iron but we cannot dismiss the part of TMS, which supports the emotional component, and it is very hard to do so on an open forum. So I guess he left it at that. However lately I have noticed some growth in that area as well as some real good support for new comers.
Dave keep up the Good work.
Last, if it wasn’t mentioned so far.
As far as the therapy goes, one thing that I have learned and se as important.
People who have been crippled for a long time and are just starting to do the work that is required, breaking the cycle of holding there bodies tight need to do this slowly like any other TMS remedy.
If they haven’t used their muscles properly or lost use of these muscles it will require some sort of therapy to restore use and mobility.
One to learn how to relax or how to trust they can use it again without pain. This must be LEARNED yourself, or should I say RE-LEARNED, and you can have aid if it is done with the right intesion.
Again I will say in my condition, physical therapy did not do me any good, but the one big thing I learned during my TMS work.
If any therapist is good and supportive, More than any thing else, they help you believe you will be better and that is the biggest part of your therapy that leads to recovery
Always Hope For Recovery
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 11:24:36
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I've been thinking about this physical vs psychological--mind vs body debate. I think TMS'ers can fall into two catagories:
1) TMS newbies who come to the board in accute pain or having years of long term chronic, debilitating pain.
2) Those, like my-self, who have embraced Sarno's TMS theory for years and are trying to return to unrestricted activity, with full range of motion.
Pain for me is no longer the major issue. My problem is that I am a step slow for my tournament tennis purposes--and that is the difference between winning and loesing. I have had excrusciating pain in the past, where I had to rig up a pulley system, above my bed to stretch my spasming leg muscles through out the night. Thankfully, to Dr.Sarno and this board, I am long past that agonizing stage of my TMS. I remember a very sympatheic orthopeadic surgeon saying to me, to keep playing tennis, and when the pain got so bad, that I couln't sleep at night and couldn't bend over to tie my shoes, I could always come back for hip-replacement surgery. I am long past that. I would become a golfer before choosing surgery. I can walk and drive with absolutely no pain.
I will now discuss something that recently is working for me in the physcical area. I realize that this may sound contrary to my previous post, but not to me. I have started to get into a deep crouch to return the ball. This is making my hip feel better. May I dear say, that by assuming this position, I am "stretching" the muscles that have been tight for years now. All I know is that it feels better and my game is better. It is also the correct position to react quickly to my opponent's shot. I hope that if I continue to do this, my long "frozen" right hip will release and return to full range of motion. I am doing this in what I feel is the context of TMS philosophy, not fearing to do normal physical activity. I am sick and tired of limping and people asking me when I am going to get a hip-replacement--NEVER!!! |
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menvert
Australia
133 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 21:04:51
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My opinion;
Unfortunately I think there is a component of TMS, which can do some real damage, because it is real pain... and I don't mean, irrepairable damage . I mean muscles which are not used in their normal manner do tend to lose their ability to operate properly and waste away... which can put your muscle system somewhat out of balance. So I don't believe your body will magically repair itself once you have embraced and defeated the TMS pain.
Chronic pain/TMS aside, stretching your body is good for your muscles . it's good for general fitness it's good for making your muscles , flexible and supple.
BUT if you are still dealing with significant TMS, then the potential benefits of exercising your muscles can be severely outweighed by the detrimental effects it has on mastering anti-TMS thinking.
If you are new to TMS, I would say No don't do specific stretches only do exercises which work contrary to your pain signals(doing it mindfully of course if it's just causing you more pain then maybe it's not the right time to be pushing through that particular pain).
But at some stage in our recovery it is appropriate to stretch, exercise, and even go through a body re-building program of some description. Providing it is not going to hamper your ability to conquer TMS. If it does start to hamper your recovery then it's time to stop that 'therapy' and regain your handle on the psychological.
There was a point in my TMS that I just had to do all sorts of exercise to build my body up, because it had wasted away too much . but after I had done that I had to stop, because it was reinforcing physical beliefs. But now I have a fit body and as a result have far less reason/opportunity to think it's a physical problem, because my body is not weak anymore.
And then there's also exercising for the sake of being fit , which is completely different to doing an exercise specifically to treat pain... it just all depends how you and your brain interprets your activities, which in many ways is the essence of TMS. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2004 : 09:33:37
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| Good post Menvert. Very thoughtful analysis of the interplay of the physical and the psycholgical aspects of TMS. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2004 : 10:10:17
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"where's austingary" as a topic, has illicited 839 replies so far--looks like a board record. Gary, having founded the board, it is a fitting homage to him.
Since there are a miniscule number of MD's and psychotherapists practicing Sarno's methods, the board is a valuable tool and refuge for those on this planet who have searched for and discovered that TMS is the source of their pain.
So, thanks Gary! The fact that you are not here, I hope is proof that you are "cured" and have moved on to other more rewarding pursuits. If you're lurking out there it would be nice and I'm sure useful to hear from you from time to time, to let us know where your TMS head is at.
All the best,
tt |
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hueftle
3 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2004 : 18:55:33
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| I think the Newsweek article probably sent him over the edge. |
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where's austingary
