| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Sean
34 Posts |
 Posted - 07/06/2006 : 08:53:01
|
I have been at this for over 9 months now and have seen no improvement, so I am getting a little frustrated and am starting to question whether I have TMS. I was in full belief for most of the time, but as of late my faith has wavered. I have done the reading and thinking psychologically, but to no avail.
Most of my faith has been diminished by my lack of progress, but some doubt has been introduced by reading The Divided Mind. I have read Healing Back Pain several times and I have read The Mindbody Prescription once and just recently finished The Divided Mind.
In the past many have questioned the fact that they did not have tender points in the 3 locations Dr. Sarno mentions. There were replies written that these tender points do not have to exist and maybe someone even quoted a TMS doctor to that fact. So until recently I was ok with these responses. Well, as many of you know The Divided Mind has many chapters written by others doctors that treat TMS patients, most of which mention they look for tender points on physical examination. They explaining that tender points are “universal” or occur in “virtually all” cases of TMS patients.
So question #1 is, what is the truth? Do you need these tender points or not? I would think that if they were not needed to prove a patient has TMS someone would at least mention that in the book.
My second concern is all the examples of “cured” TMS cases mention that the person is healed in less than a month. Maybe there were a couple of cases where it took 2 or 3 months, but even for these examples the author mentioned “most of the pain was gone in a month and then the person was pain free within 3 months”. I know everyone says don’t put a timeline on it, but if it were common to take 6 month, a year, 2 years why is there NO examples like this given or any type of reassurance in the books?
Am I to believe that of the dozens of examples given, 85% of people are cured in 2 weeks, 15% take less than 2 months, but 95% of the people on this forum take longer than 2 months? The books even give examples of people who just read the books without having an examination, and were relieved of their pain in 2 weeks. So that brings me to question #2, if it is common for people to take longer than 2 months to cure themselves why do they never give examples as such?
My third question is that if you don’t need to know what is causing your rage, but merely acknowledge that it exists then how do you think psychologically? If I think my tension comes from problems at work and when I am experience pain I think of these problems, but actually my problems stem from something else, how will that teach my brain to stop its distraction?
Question #4. All of my pain comes from what is considered a conditioned response. My back never hurts out of the blue. It hurts from sitting too long or standing more than 10 minutes. So should I think psychologically during a conditioned response and push through it? I tried that this weekend and am really paying the price for it.
I could probably write more, but this is already too long. Thanks.
|
|
|
Susie
USA
319 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 10:29:21
|
| Sean, the majority of us on this forum think of tms as a work in progress. Very few are cured in 2 weeks. For me it took months and I have slight twinges all the time. They amount to nothing and I have no fear or anxiety about them. I understand them. I had tender points but I don't think everyone does. Thirdly, the main thing is to realize that your pain comes from a psychological PROBLEM, not a structual. There is really nothing physically wrong with you. It's great to figure out what is really bothering you but the main thing is to understand that whatever is bothering you is causing your pain. Hope this helps. |
 |
|
|
armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 10:56:59
|
I think they like mentioning the "fast" people in the books because it sounds good to new people, but they don't think about how it sounds when you've read the books many times over a period of months. I know there are lots of people on this forum who've taken longer. One of the people whose healing accounts I took a lot of inspiration from (http://podolsky.everybody.org/rsi/) took over a year. It depends what the real problem is, maybe, and how fast you can find it, as well as how your brain deals with changing the coping strategy. I've been discovering that making the pain go away just opens me up to the real problem and it's pretty hard to handle...maybe your brain still believes you can't handle whatever is the problem?
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
|
|
|
Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 13:07:14
|
I can understand Sarno and other Doctors wanting to show how "fast" a cure can happen, but I really can't believe that these intelligent people would not see how much of a disservice that would be to anyone reading these cases.
Sarno says in his books that it can take up to two or three months (never mentions more) and that his patients are instructed to inform him if they don't see any progress so he can get them in a support group or something. Like it is abnormal to take so long. Does anyone have any direct experience with Dr. Sarno where you did not see relief in 2 months? Did he mention that was normal?
ArmChair your wrote:
I've been discovering that making the pain go away just opens me up to the real problem and it's pretty hard to handle...maybe your brain still believes you can't handle whatever is the problem?
How did you find out what the real problem is? Everything I have thought of would not bring me to my knees so if it is something that is repressed how will I ever know what it is. AND PLEASE don't say you don't have to find the specific problem.
|
|
|
|
Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 14:57:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by cjbdrm
The only way to get better is to believe the diagnosis.
You don't believe the diagnosis.
If you have doubts, it will take longer. You have doubts. That is why it is taking so long.
...
Sorry to be frank.
As long as we are being Frank...if you read my post I stated that only recently I have started to lose faith. I had some point earlier on where I had doubts too, but for the most part I have been diligent. If 8 months of dedication is way too soon to be frustrated then forgive me. I must have missed all the examples in the book where it says this will take at least a year.
Having said that, there is NO ONE (NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY) THAT DOESN'T HAVE SOME DOUBT. This goes against everything you have heard in your life so if you are saying that before you saw results you were 100% in belief you are lying to yourself. If I told you that the sun will turn blue tomorrow and I gave you all the logical and scientific proof that I'm correct would you believe me 100%? I truly do believe I have TMS, but I find it harder and harder to keep my faith as time goes by without any results.
Has anyone been to Sarno or another TMS Doc that has said it is common to take months or possible years? |
|
|
|
h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2006 : 15:18:49
|
It took me over a year to cure my TMS.
Read my SuccessStory: from last week.
Sean, you're so obsessed with all the statistics of cure rates and all this. It really means your unconscious mind is still looking for ways for you to doubt that YOU can be cured. Believe me, I was scared that I was "special" and couldn't be cured either.
Stop obsessing and start journaling, or if you've exhausted that, just get on with your life. That's what I did in the end.
It's like "Oh, my wrists hurt today, well then they're just gonna have to hurt 'cause I got work to do." And that's it. I never remember thinking about it again. The pain goes away when I quit having emotional responses to the pain, like fear and dread and resentment and . . .
Best wishes.
Beth |
|
|
|
Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 07:03:05
|
So in other words no one knows the answers to my questions. People would rather make assumptions on what I am and am not doing and then pass judgment on how I don't "get it".
Like I said I have read the books and done the work with no results. So I am simply trying to figure out if some of the information I have believed in for the past 9 or 10 months is inaccurate. Maybe you have to have tender points, maybe 9 months is atypical (especially since the book only mentions quick fixes). I don't want to waste the next 9 months of my life reading books and doing the other work if it turns out you must have tender points to be diagnosed with TMS.
Why do so many people ignore the question you ask and assume that telling someone "you're doing it all wrong" is helpful?
So I guess it is my turn to give my unprofessional psychological advice. Maybe the people that feel compelled to reply by criticizing someone's process and totally ignoring the questions are afraid to think about the answers because it would put some doubt in their mind as well.
I have not included enough information for anyone to pass judgment on my process, so if you are not replying to try to answer any of the questions please feel free to not reply to this post.
|
|
|
|
miche
Canada
283 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 08:54:56
|
| Sean, I have all the tender points but my son had none, he had pain in his wrists for over a year, could not type etc, along with pain in his feet, legs lower back and groin for years, did the round of doctors chiro, physio, massage therapists, I intoduced him to Sarno before I even began to look into the book for myself, I was desparate to find him help as I so worried for his future, he was only twenty one when this started, he totally believed in it from the start it seems and cured himself in a couple of months, he is now twenty six and under trmendous pressure as he has not been able to find a decent paying job in Toronto despite the fact that he has a university degree, so he has felt some twinges but after rereading Sarno, has been able to keep the pain at bay, wish I could say the same for myself, it seems he never doubted the Sarno theory behind pain, but I know for sure he never had the tender points, hope this helps |
|
|
|
wolf29
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 09:11:39
|
Sean,
Don't lose hope because I am in the same situation as you. I've had back pain for over 3 years now and I learned about Dr. Sarno over a year ago. I've had weeks and months of being pain free and then it would come back.
I do believe I have TMS as everytime I go on vacation I don't have any hint of back trouble. No would believe me if I told them I have back pain if they saw me while on vacation. Then I come back to the "reality" of my daily life with all the stress and tension, and the pain sets in. If it was structual it wouldn't come and go like that.
Yet, I have that little doubt that prevents me from totally freeing myself. I have fear of certain exercises although one of my passions is bodybuilding. While I do the exercises I fear I have no problems, but afterwards I start to hurt because I expect to. Again, if it was structual I wouldn't think I could lift what I do. I have to keep at it or TMS wins if I quit certain exercises... again.
So look for small victories you may have had in the past. Notice when all of a sudden you have no pain and try to think about how your mind was distracted for that moment. Those little victories can add up over time.
One thing I know is that if we lose hope, then it will definitely not go away. I've tried all "physical" means, short of surgery, of getting rid of the pain and nothing has worked. Even when I babied my back it still hurt. Things generally don't take that long to heal.
Good luck.
Jay |
|
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 09:51:14
|
" So in other words no one knows the answers to my questions."
Hi Sean,
The answers to your questions are in Sarnos's books. You have a TMS "equivalent" that does not have tender points, called "argumentitis".
You very well may not have TMS. Not everthing is TMS. About 80% is TMS. Only 10% of people on the planet have the ability to accept TMS as the source of their pains.
99.999999% of people who have read the books and been cured have never heard of this board. They have gone on with their lives.
Those are just some quick replies to you. I don't get paid for this and it would take me all day to research through the books to find the stats you are looking for. I am watching Federer play Bjorkman in the Wimbledon semi's so I don't have time to reply much more, then I have to go to work.
I don't take on many new patients anymore. If someone quits on me or dies I'll try to plug you in. Are you paying by cash or Visa; I no loger take insurance.
It would make my job a lot easier if you would make page citations for those stats you quote. IMHO they don't seem to add up. Let me get out my T-square and see what figure I come up with???
x 9 months
x HEALING BACKPAIN several times
x 3 tender point
x many chapters written by other doctors
x 2-3 months
x 1 month
x 3 months
x 6 months
x 1 year
x 2 years
x 85% x 2 weeks
x 15% x 2 months
x 95% longer than 2 months
x 2 weeks
x 2 months
x 10 minutes
=
`@#$%^&*()+!~@#$%^&*()_+!@#~$%^&*()_+~!@#$%^&*&*()_+)*&^%$#@!
OH NO ! My Walmart T-square just blew a transistor. This DOES NOT COMPUTE.
" So should I think psychologically during a conditioned response and push through it?"
YES
"I tried that this weekend and am really paying the price for it."
REQUEST A REFUND
Damn it. I just spent an hour and fifteen minutes studying your complex case and that's how long it took my boy Fedderer to beat Bjorkman in straight sets. Now my butt hurts. Thankfully I taped it.
|
|
|
|
Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 10:18:14
|
Tom, it is smart A$$ know it alls like you that make this forum bad. Let me get out my calculator...No one forced you to reply or give any feed back...if you don't want to respond DON'T.
If you feel you have to put your 2 cents in to everything when you don't have anything of value to add that = Jacka$$. |
|
|
|
Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 10:26:41
|
Jay (wolf29),
Thanks for the response. I have many things similar to what you posted that make me believe I have TMS too. That is what keeps me going, but as you see with no results I have been losing faith.
If I could get answers from someone who may have heard it from Sarno or another credited TMS doc then maybe I wouldn't feel like I'm wasting my time.
Some people feel as though if they have been cured, everyone else who hasn't is ignorant or doesn't know what they are doing. I think that is a poor attitude.
Thanks. |
|
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 11:01:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sean
Tom, it is smart A$$ know it alls like you that make this forum bad. Let me get out my calculator...No one forced you to reply or give any feed back...if you don't want to respond DON'T.
If you feel you have to put your 2 cents in to everything when you don't have anything of value to add that = Jacka$$.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your welcome Mrs. McKay,
You are absolutely right, no one forced me to respond. I did it all by myself. If you want to talk to someone who has spoken directly with Dr. Sarno, call Don Dubin. That's what I did. He charges $150 per session.
Have a nice day,
The Bad Forum Person, smartA$$, JackA$$
p.s.,
If your butt hurts from sitting to long then get off your fat a$$ and get a real job instead of pushing pencils and counting beans for the man. Try doing something usefull that helps humanity like hammering nails, flipping burgers at IN & OUT, (my favorite fast food), or pumping gas in Oregon. If your back hurts when you stand for ten minutes try moving your feet.
|
|
|
|
Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 11:15:04
|
I never once mentioned my butt hurting... you did. Frankly what you do in your personal life is non of my business.
You must have a very unsatisfying life you spend your day (all day) on this forum.
See that's the thing, you know nothing about me...you just assume I'm fat and lazy and you pass judgment. You can't give tough love to someone who you have no background information on. In my book that's called rudeness.
Tell you what Tom, as long as you stay out of my posts I'll stay out of yours. I don't appreciate you assuming right off the bat that I am too stupid to understand the concepts of TMS. If you disagree that's fine, you don't have to post. Posting just to make ignorant comments to me is not helping anyone.
|
|
|
|
Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 12:33:08
|
Sean,
For what it's worth, I don't think Sarno's theory is dead-on accurate either, but I don't think it matters to your healing. I realize also that there are many here that take offense that people don’t consider the theory 100% accurate, and ultimately it doesn’t matter what they think, right? What does matter vitally is what you think. This condition is not so much a condition of how you feel as it is a condition of what you THINK. I can't (and won’t) argue with the results of so many who claim to have healed using only information and their thought processes, but here is what I have used so far to help myself, a fellow doubting Thomas.
I have had the dubious honor of suffering from panic disorder and TMS simultaneously. If you read the archives you will find many who fall into this category. Ron Siegel's book also mentions this extraordinary link. Sarno gives mention to anxiety disorders as being equivalents, but doesn't say he thinks the back pain is just a symptom of anxiety state (those with this problem will recognize the more common as dizziness, trembling hands, churning stomach, depersonalization/realization, and shoulder, neck and back stiffness and pain).
The cure for panic disorder is to not focus on the body and its sensations and fear them. We should let them come and go without being too impressed with them, realize they go away in time if we wait, and that no death will follow. There has never been a case of a death from panic attack, nor, I suppose from TMS spasm. Permanence of that cure typically takes going thorough panic attack after panic attack until you no longer fear the symptoms. Sound familiar? Isn’t that exactly the same thing that Sarno says? Think about something other than your pain (think psychological) and don’t respond with conscious fear.
So, I really thought hard about when I got the shoulder blade area pain originally and when it started to get worse, and sure enough, it was when I started to get despondent about the pain not going away that I got panic attacks. Concomitantly, I was beginning to feel the strain of the homelife with two little kids, financial pressures, a job I hated, and soon I cooked up a recipe for suffering. Then the pain REAALLLLLY pushed on me hard.
I then began to catastrophize about my life situation with work, finances, being pushed too hard to perform at work and at home. I didn't sleep through the night for 10 weeks. I was suffering from strange neurological symptoms in my legs, and the constant back pain between the blades was horrifying. I went through several diagnostics and nothing was found. My GP put me on Zoloft and I nearly lost my mind. I was convinced I was dying, and there was no treatment because docs couldn't figure it out. But I really never lost hope that if it wasn’t an organic process that I could heal.
Today I am not healed. I deal daily with the pain in my right shoulder blade area and sometimes in my low back on the right side. I also have plantar fasciitis pain. But none of it matters. It only matters if I LET it. I too only feel severe pain when standing or sitting. But I can lift weights, jog, throw baseball, anything I choose. The pain I can’t control; the suffering I can. It is an operation of will. I suppose the conditioned response I have to sitting and standing is similar to yours. Have you tried seeing what happens if you let the pain be there and don’t shrink away from it? You said you tried ignoring it recently while standing and paid dearly. In what way? Did something clinically significant happen or were you just upset greatly by it? I used to have panic attacks from the pain until I lost my fear of them. Haven’t had one since January.
I know I’m on the right track because I feel so much better and I am not allowing myself the self-pity trips. I did three sets of thirty push-ups this morning just to punch the fear in the face before I left for work. This pain is really a joke and cannot stand up to your will. Get inspired for accomplishing something in spite of the pain and see if you don’t do it. A journey with pain is just as successful as a journey without, right? You’ll get there. Read Back Sense. It is great for those of us who have to dissect things and get hung up on the theoretical stuff.
One last thing: I don’t know if I have tender points in the three areas either and never bothered to see. If you know that what you have only bothers you in certain circumstances, that it can’t harm you and is wholly, completely clinically benign, what else do you need to know to get better? Best of luck.
|
Edited by - Hillbilly on 07/07/2006 12:43:34 |
|
|
|
h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 13:00:32
|
It seems the "Tender Points" aren't just physical any more . . .
[Just Kidding].
We could all use to laugh more on this site . . .
Beth |
|
|
|
Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 13:36:45
|
Hillbilly, Thanks so much for the response. I do not try to play the victim, I try to do as much as I can every day. When I am not working I am usually doing many home improvement projects; I recently tried to get back into lifting weights; and I have a 2 year old that keeps me busy. In fact (since you asked) the activity that caused me great pain this weekend was scraping my house (I'm going to start painting). I was out there for about 30 minutes and my back really started hurting so I decided I would totally ignore it and focus on psychological issues. Well after about 20 more minutes I was in much more pain so I went in to rest and the next 3 days I was hobbling around the house.
I can relate to the catastrophizing, when I get the acute symptoms I usually end up to the point where I can't walk. I think what will happen if I can't work? Luckily it didn't get that bad.
To tell you the truth I have never thought the disc degeneration was an accurate diagnosis (even before I heard of TMS). I know I'm not a doctor, but by looking at my x-ray or MRI I just can't believe that the small amount of degeneration can cause so much pain. And the there are many things about my situation that support the TMS theory that keep me hanging in there. You haven't seen perfectionism until you've seen me doing the finish work on some crown molding.
Thanks again for the helpful comments. I'm going home in a bit and get a little more scraping done. |
|
|
|
wolf29
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 13:45:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sean
I try to do as much as I can every day. When I am not working I am usually doing many home improvement projects; I recently tried to get back into lifting weights; and I have a 2 year old that keeps me busy.
Sean, maybe that's part of the "problem".. trying to do as much as you can every day. I have 2 jobs and 6 year old which keep me very busy. I also try to get my weight training in and all that can add up to a lot of stress and anxiety. Am I doing enough here, and I doing enough there, am I giving myself enough time. Do I deserve time to myself and so on. Not saying that's what goes through your mind, but I can see how it could for many of us.
My 6 year old demands a lot of my time and keeps me busy. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world but subconsciously I think I may have anger towards the fact that I don't have time to myself or as much as I would like. My wife puts demands on my time as well or at least I see it as such. It's all about how we percieve situations and can cause us the pain.
So perhaps you need to examine, if you haven't, how doing as much as you can really makes you feel. The conscious side of me feels proud to do as much as I can for my family. The subconsious side might be angry as hell for the demands it puts on me. I don't like to think I may feel that way, but if I'm going to beat TMS I have to be open to that possibility.
Jay |
|
|
|
Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 13:53:55
|
Sean,
Just this weekend I put the finishing touches on a bunk bed I built for a friend. I caught myself in pain several times and realized that it was when I was pressing to do things more quickly, more efficiently, and more perfectly. This is a disease that we share. I have also remodeled houses that should've taken a few weeks and stretched into months. I would get angry when my wife would ask about completion and it would stir my ire. When I realized that she cared about the project only from a practical standpoint and not from an "Oh my gosh, who did this work, it's so beautiful?!" standpoint, I got 'r' done, to quote my compatriot Larry the Cable Guy.
Here's an exercise that I found very useful and enlightening. Try to see how much the voice of perfection is yours and how much is someone else's (a demanding father, perhaps, or your wife). Perfectionism is never about our opinion. It is our projection of someone else's thinking. Our need to please and be good. Tell me your thoughts. |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 07/07/2006 15:02:39 |
|
|
|
Michele
249 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 14:01:13
|
Well if you have doubts after only 9 months, then I should be throwing my books out the window. I've been at it for 2 YEARS. I'm still in pain. Occasionally I have a good day where the pain isn't so bad and it hurts but not "screaming" hurt, but it has not gone away.
I thought maybe this weekend I would shelve all of my TMS books, pull out one journal, and try to forget about TMS for a while. If I'm lucky, I'll have a good cry and perhaps be a little pain free in the morning.
I know exactly how you're feeling Sean, but I don't have any answers for you. I simply go day to day.
|
|
|
|
Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2006 : 15:16:10
|
Jay, I hear you, I look at those things you mention. And while I don't think I spread myself too thin, when I do have free time I feel like I should be getting something done. I have noticed that when I have an extended weekend (like the 4th of July) I have more pain. I thought that it may be my brain trying harder to distact me since I don't have my job to think about.
Hillbilly, I think for the most part I want things done right for me. I have done many jobs that would have been easier with 2 people, but I do want anyone's help (or put anyone out {more TMS}). I see your point though.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Is TMS for everyone?
