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j0yful
17 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2006 : 14:07:20
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Anyone else using EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprogramming} to unlock their suppressed rage? I have PTSD so even though I KNOW the pain is from my subconscious it keeps comming back in different forms. I've had about 4 sessions and it seems to be helping me unlock the rage that I keep refeeling {or not feeling}. BTW the PTSD is from working 20 years in the Emergency Room and an abusive marriage, both of which I am out of. |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 16:25:26
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| Not to be a continual party pooper, but from what I understand EMDR is essentially a huge placebo, and it is the talk therapy portion that causes active benefit. I have a hard time buying that moving your eyes around in a certain way has anything to do with recovering from PTSD, personally. Anything that gets people to deal with their problems and talk about them in some structured way is good by me, though, and as placebos go, it's completely harmless... |
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j0yful
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 19:50:56
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| Anyone out there who has experience and not opinions. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 00:10:13
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| I've experienced EMDR in therapy on several occasions. Maybe because it was used only sporadically and not in an intensive session to session way, I can't say I saw any particular benefit. I don't dismiss it. There are studies on both sides of the question. But as Dr Drziggles says, it is hard to see how the eye movement (doesn't have to be eye movement; my therapist has me close my eyes and hold small vibrating devices that alternate pulses in each hand) could affect anything. I also agree with Dr Drziggles that there's no harm in trying it. If you feel you are getting benefit from it I would encourage you to continue. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 07:41:02
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| Please do a search on this forum for many messages dealing with EMDR, and why it is counterproductive to TMS treatment. |
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j0yful
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 08:12:00
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| Was your therapist using it to treat PTSD? My results have been amazing. It's like turbo processing. I was able to process and let go of one trauma in 2 sessions. The first session we prepped and the second we did the process. We are now 2 sessions into my biggest trauma, I can't believe how much anger I have stuffed. My therapist uses tapping on the wrists. The sessions are very structured and my therapist is trained in it. Someone told me yesterday that their therapist "tried" it to "work on" her fathers death. Of course it didn't work. She didn't have PTSD and it sounded like the therapist wasn't trained. PTSD sucks! The feelings and memories are STUCK! no matter how hard you work on them. What I'm finding is when I feel the feelings during EMDR, they are felt. I don't seem to be going back and refeeling those same feelings as powerfully as if it were the first time. I am sooo happy this is working for me. If anyone else has PTSD please get a therapist trained in EMDR before you try it. |
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j0yful
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 08:17:48
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| Counter productive? I disagree. I know my back, stomach, buttocks, head and IBS are all stuffed rage. With PTSD it stays stuffed even with regular therapy or journaling. If they are not released the mind will keep finding ways to trick me. Which is what was happenings. How is this different then journaling for feelings which are not trapped in PTSD. |
Edited by - j0yful on 06/09/2006 08:20:28 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 10:40:28
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The eye movement part of EMDR is a placebo; it is pseudo-science. The important aspect is the psychotherapy.
I believe it is counterproductive for the same reason as hundreds of other messages posted on this forum over the years. Too often, people with TMS look for a magic bullet -- something extra to help dispell the symptoms. It is important to accept that other than psychotherapy, which may be helpful, one doesn't need anything other than knowledge, belief, and persistence to fight TMS.
If EMDR helps you to get in touch with repressed feelings and release them, and that in turn helps the symptoms, I think it's great. The only point I am making is that it likely has nothing to do with the eye movement, but the skill of the therapist in helping you to bring out those feelings. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 14:03:02
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| When in doubt, go to quackwatch.org |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 22:51:58
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| Good point, Alix. Yes, EMDR is listed on Quackwatch...along with TMS. So, how can we automatically say one is quackery and the other not? Both are in the category of "lacking empirical evidence." Of course, some things are more dubious than others. For me, TMS seems much more credible than EMDR, though I'm not ready to say EMDR is worthless. But for me, so far, it hasn't seemed useful. Which brings up your question, "joyful"; no, I was not using it for PTSD. Maybe that's the problem. If you say it has worked wonders for you, I believe you. But, as a couple of others said, I also don't see how the eye movement part (or similar strategy) would do anything. I wish someone could give a plausible explanation why this would be useful. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 23:13:43
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Another point: Just because something is mainstream--not on the "Quackwatch" list does not mean it works. In fact, for MANY mainstream therapies, there is little or no proof that they do anything at all. Physical therapy and chiropractic are a couple of notable examples. Sarno mentions some back surgeries as another example. I guess the lesson for the layperson is, shop wisely, keep your eyes open, do a cost-benefit analysis before deciding to try any particular therapy.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2006 : 00:37:45
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"How is this different then journaling for feelings which are not trapped in PTSD."
The difference is that treatments cost hundreds and thousands of dollars and journaling is FREE.
Recent definitive studies have proven accupuncture and glucosamine-chondroitin to be WORTHLESS but the media has made little mention of these recent findings. The media hoopla, when these snake-oil treatments are "discovered", is never matched, by the back-pages that their debunking is relegated to.
The benefits of these treatments are due to the 45 minutes of relaxation found, while lying on the massage table, briefly away from the stressors of one's life. The benefits quickly evaporate when one returns to the real world.
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Edited by - tennis tom on 06/10/2006 00:49:50 |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2006 : 06:50:25
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| From what I remember of the TMS entry on Quackwatch, only this particular TMS diagnostic test is put in doubt, not the overall TMS theory or the successful TMS outcomes reported by Sarno.....So I wouldn't see this as a condemnation of the TMS system that we on this forum know works so well. |
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ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2006 : 10:43:43
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I agree with Fox. I think the diagnostic test referred to on Quackwatch may be the one at: http://www.homestead.com/nprunclub/BACKPAIN.html which is a self-test to determine if you might have TMS, and it's only the test that is mentioned.
And I wouldn't put too much faith in "quackwatch," which is a website run by a controversial doctor with "tunnel vision," very biased against all forms of alternative medicine, whom you can read about here on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Barrett
Ralph
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2006 : 14:43:46
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| Ralphhyde - thanks for the info on Barrett. In the future, when reading his web site, I'll be on the lookout for unfair bias... Still, I feel that his web site is extremely valuable because I don't want to waste time or money using alternative treatments that don't present at least a moderate amount of evidence base....And before someone posts a devils advocate type of entry saying that Sarno's theories have not undergone rigorous scientific assessemnt either, let me state that I feel that his early outcome studies hold some weight and that seeing the multitude of success stories (including mine - I do call 85% pain relief a success) posted on this forum is another form of evidence that I buy into. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2006 : 17:50:45
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| Barrett does endorse surgery for CTS etc... A friend of mine sent Barrett a letter regarding some dubious nerve decompression surgery of the pudendal nerve he felt was quackery and he got back a very condescending reply from Barrett dismissing the letter and endorsing the surgery. |
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j0yful
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 13:37:11
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| Hi All, I was out of town. I thought I'd share what my has happened in my EMDR sessions. First I had a prep session which I read is very important regarding the sucess rate. At this session we chose a traumatic event which led me to leave the ER. It fit the criteria of PTSD, probably mild, but definately there. During the session my therapist had me visualize the event and tapped on my wrists, alternating back an forth. It was weird, my mind quickly jumped to another scene, then she stopped and we talked then visualized that scene and so on. In one session I was able to express my horror, powerlessness, regret, appologize to the victim of the abuse I witnesssed and let go of the event. The event sort of just went away and I no longer think about it. We are now working on another event which will probably take 3-4 sessions but I am amazed T the progress so far. Bye for now. |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2006 : 07:24:45
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Blaming outside situations for your problem eg parents, job means the cause was outside your control. Then using someone else who can treat you with whatever the help is that you have chosen, could be, this time, putting the cure outside your control. Which leaves TMSers with the 'poor wee me' syndrome - all I'm trying to do is help everyone and look what happens to me! --- when in fact the "cure" is largely within yourself, changing the way you view yourself, you close relations and the outside world.
Anyone else have views on this? |
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Bonnie
Canada
33 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2006 : 18:42:56
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Hi, my therapist used EMDR a couple of years ago for severe PTSD from physical abuse and trauma and it worked for me, as it has worked for many Viet Vets who didn't get help from anything else. I use whatever works, positive affirmations, Bach Rescue remedy as one of the aids to get me off the drug I was detoxing from, journaling, beating the crap out of my bed with a broom handle to exress my anger so it doesn't stay inside and fester like it used to do, talking about my feelings, telling the truth about how I feel instead of keeping my mouth shut. I'm still doing the work and I'll keep using whatever helps me.
Bonnie |
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yowire
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 19:29:51
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Upon ruminating on this thread, a few thoughts came to mind. While it may seem reasonable to suppose that eye movements or wrist tapping or a vibrating pulse in each hand would have no therapeutic effect, there may be a good reason, in light of what we know about TMS, why it would work.
I know that when I suffer an acute pain or when I have a virus, many of my symptoms disappear until these distractions have subsided. We all know that TMS is primarily a distraction from painful emotions. As such, it is conceivable then, that if you could create another physical distraction which could redirect your attention from your symptoms in a non-threatening way, you could then proceed to confront painful emotions without the defense system in place which is meant to stop these emotions from surfacing. The eye movements or wrist tapping and such may serve this purpose.
I believe the brain causes TMS in order to create a fake emotion in response to the symptom so your real emotions are distracted. Since things like eye movements would have no emotion attached to them such as fear or anger, it is possible that in the event that they do redirect your attention away from symptoms that do have these emotions associated, then in theory, it would be much easier to get to the real emotion.
In my opinion, this is a reasonable hypothesis and may explain why those such as Joyful have had success. In fact, it makes me wonder that if an even more powerful distraction could be developed and used in conjunction with psycotherapy, you may have a more effective treatment for TMS.
Yowire
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EMDR
