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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2006 : 16:29:50
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I am sure this is not a new problem for the forum, but I wondered what the take on it was. I have had RSI for three years and have tried lots of treatment, with trigger-point release being the most successful. But I still had limited function and frequent pain. Recently, just before re-trying the Sarno method, I started seeing an RSI specialist. His training is chiropractic, but he treats trigger points and does other muscle therapies as well. He pinpointed the problem as my scalene muscles. I had seen him 2 or 3 times, with some good results, before trying Sarno theory seriously.
As soon as I tried Sarno I went from ~10 min typing ability to a few hours and then whole days, though I am still taking breaks and occasionally stretching, and I still have some pain. After that I've felt no better on treatment days than on other days. I spoke to the doctor regarding this, and he said that he knows the theory and thinks it can help, but that mechanical factors are also contributors. I know that Sarno doesn't believe this, and I have read several stories, including HilaryN's on this board and some on the web, where they recover completely with Sarno's method, after zero or partial previous success. On the other hand, the doctor claims that he has many patients who are doing completely well years later just from his treatment.
I think I'm typical TMS. Major perfectionist, previously suffering anxiety & depression, knee pain, foot pain, neck & upper back pain. But after having RSI 3 years I am very indoctrinated to the structural causes, i.e. computers are bad because we are not designed to sit still, use tiny muscles all day, pronated wrists, restricted range of motion, blah blah. It makes so much sense!
I decided to cancel my remaining appointments with the doctor, against his advice. I don't think I can give Sarno a fair try unless I stop doing treatment. However, I wonder about stopping stretching. I do stretches for my whole body as a health thing, because otherwise I feel stiff. Can stiffness come from TMS as well, or is it just normal from sitting all day and it's healthy to stretch out?
Clearly I am still in doubt. I would like to believe more completely, since that is essential to the method. I am already reading MBP over and over. What are some other methods that might help me believe? |
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vikki
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 16:55:19
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armchairlinguist,
It takes a while to deprogram yourself of the structural thinking. It took me a long time to give up my stretches, even though I believed Sarno's theory. I think canceling the appointments with the specialist was a good idea.
Yes, using a computer requires sitting still, using tiny muscles, etc. All of this is true. But the thing is, your body can take it -- you are not that fragile. After doing Sarno's approach, I've come to believe that the human body is great at adapting to all kinds of physically stressful environments. In fact, if you read Sopher's chapter on RSI, he emphasizes that this is exactly how your body gets stronger and and better at doing these tasks.
I do stretch these days, usually after I run. I do a variety of general stretches, not the really targeted ones I was taught in physical therapy. I think stretching is good for general health (flexibility) and for my running performance. What I no longer believe is that stretching prevents pain or "injuries." Sarno says the same about back exercises -- he says they are great for general health (he even does them himself), but that one should not believe that they will get rid of TMS pain.
Vikki
Edited to add: P.S. Go easy on yourself. Changing your beliefs is a slow, gradual process. Take it slowly, increase your activities, reduce your focus on the pain, and keep reading about TMS. |
Edited by - vikki on 04/26/2006 17:00:28 |
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Becca
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 18:01:33
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Hi
I do not have RSI symptoms ( I have neck, upper back and pain in my pectoral muscles). I had great success with trigger point therapy and still use it. However, for me, I believe stresses and emotional contflicts cause the muscle tension that leads to the trigger points. So in my case, trigger point therapy helps relieve the symtoms temporarily, and makes life more manageable. But to stop the formation of trigger poings and pain, I need to address my stress and anxiety. If I don't learn how to manage my emotions, the trigger points return on a regular basis. Treating the trigger points is treating the symptoms rather than the cause. It works temporarily (and is not a placebo), but the cause of the problem remains-R |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2006 : 18:15:38
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Becca,
That has been my experience as well. Before Sarno theory, trigger point therapy made me functional. But the points got worse easily & quickly after treatment, so I had to keep doing the same thing. So I think that's how my brain creates pain, or perhaps how my body reacts to the lack of blood. I said this to the doc this morning. He was skeptical. But I think it makes sense. I sometimes also experience the trigger points becoming active or latent "randomly", not in correspondence with activity. Sounds TMS-like to me. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2006 : 19:14:02
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vikki,
Thanks for your comments, especially reminding me to go easy on myself. I bet it is a common problem to extend the perfectionist personality to the TMS healing process itself.
What writing of Sopher's are you referring to? I am interested in RSI-specific material. |
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vikki
95 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2006 : 00:34:12
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Hi armchairlinguist,
I was referring to Sopher's book, To Be or Not to Be Pain Free. I believe he has a chapter (or possibly a section within a chapter) on computer-related problems, in which he makes the point that the more you do something (typing), the stronger and better you get. Other good RSI specific materials include Rachel Podolsky's site (http://podolsky.everybody.org/rsi/) and Nate McNamara's site (www.conquerrsi.com).
Definitely true about perfectionist tendencies carrying over to the TMS treatment itself -- this has been a huge obstacle for me.
Vikki |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2006 : 16:52:13
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I will put that book of Sopher's on my list then. I have fortunately found Nate & Rachel's pages already. It was Nate's page that renewed my interest in TMS after a failed attempt to pursue it last fall, and their pages that gave me enough confidence to try my first "experiment" to begin activity with the belief that the pain was not structural. I did not have the luxury of waiting until I accepted it to get back to full activity since I just started a new job where I needed my hands. The experiment was a roaring success and I am about 90% pain-free now and 99% fully active. I am giving up my special accommodations gradually. I put my touchpad flat instead of tilted, gave up voice recognition, took my podiatric insoles out, and reduced my "break time". I only stretch if I feel like it. So I am doing pretty well. My symptoms jump around a lot to try to distract me and I just say to myself, if they were real they would not jump like that. They cannot fool me. And I purchased Schechter's workbook to help with structured journaling. I am doing my best not to get too perfectionist and obsessive about the treatment, as well, but I feel like there is still a lot I can learn that will help my recovery. Sarno mentions in his new book that for 60% or so of patients either perfectionism/goodism or that plus life pressures is the main thing, which I think is probably right for me. He also talks about displaced anger, where anger comes out for small stuff, and how temper control (which I learned as a tween just before the onset of my knee pain in adolescence!) can lead to the substitution of physical symptoms for the previous expressions of displaced anger.
It is great to think of all the stuff I am able to do again whenever I feel like. I frequently still catch myself thinking "Wait, can I do that?" and then I remember the answer is always YES. So I would say I am doing well so far and I appreciate all the help from the board! |
Edited by - armchairlinguist on 05/01/2006 19:36:49 |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 01:26:44
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Have you worked out why you are a perfectionist / goodist? People aren't born that way.
After alot of journalling and thought I realised I am not a goodist, in fact I am pretty selfish and intolerant. My "goodism" was me wanting to be seen as a really nice, caring person by others and not me being truly concerned for other human beings, even family, as I had kidded myself.
With all these goodists about it's surprising no ones posting from an Aids treatment centre in S Africa or a leper colony in India!! |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2006 : 17:49:01
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Scotty,
My parents say I have been that way since I was a very small child. I suspect that means that I absorbed very early what I remember explicitly only from later childhood: getting affirmation for good behavior and achievements rather than for my whole self. I believe that's probably what's behind it. I am not as "nice" as some goodists but I would say that I'm goodist as well as perfectionist because I try hard not to get angry without reason and to be a good friend/girlfriend, daughter, sister, community member, etc.
However, I'm not sure it is not heritable. It is difficult to say since usually the same people provide our genes & environment. |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2006 : 01:48:55
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Does being a good friend etc etc mean that you are often subconciously feeling put upon. "Trying not to get angry" sounds similar to suppressing anger. And is it heritable or are you trying to live up to someone else's apparently high standards
It's not so much that I am no longer good but that I am much more honest (I no longer always say what I think people want to hear and keep my mouth shut more instead of always rushing in wanting to "help" - except on messageboards!!).
Anne
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 10:35:02
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Anne,
Yes to all the things you said. I got knee pain for the first time just after learning to "control my temper". There is a lot of anger suppression, and I do say things that people want to hear. I went on a hike yesterday with my boyfriend, which I enjoyed, and am glad I went, but I had some foot pain and I think a large part of me would have rather done nothing much.
I don't think it matters much if there is a genetic component; there is a big environmental one where my parents are themselves perfectionists and workaholics and had high standards for themselves and for me, so I think I have always measured my worth by achievements and intellectual interplay rather than by emotions or being.
I have written down most of this already in the course of my journaling. But I am feeling a bit stuck in terms of pain improvement lately. I am 99% functional but still with some annoying pain in my feet, arms, and upper back. Right now I am trying some techniques from Fred Amir's book. We will see if they help. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2006 : 11:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
I don't think I can give Sarno a fair try unless I stop doing treatment. However, I wonder about stopping stretching. I do stretches for my whole body as a health thing, because otherwise I feel stiff. Can stiffness come from TMS as well, or is it just normal from sitting all day and it's healthy to stretch out?
Stopping physical treatment is essential to Sarno's theory. It is step 1. It makes no sense to go further otherwise.
Stretching for overall flexibility and health is not necessarily bad, though Sarno does not believe stretching has any benefit. If you get out of your chair occasionally and stretch because it feels good, there's no harm in that. However, if you stretch because you feel that it eases physical symptoms, then once again you are not doing step 1. Stiffness can definitely be TMS, and stretching a placebo.
Bottom line: if you stretch your fingers because you feel it helps with RSI symptoms, then you are simply not following Sarno's method. You must unequivocally believe that the pain has a psychogenic origin, and has nothing to do with muscular or structural problems. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2006 : 11:11:47
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| Dave, thanks for your input on the stiffness question. I am working on it now with the assumption that any lasting stiffness (ie not what comes from sitting a lot, and goes away within a few mins of getting up) is part of TMS. I have found that I've done well with reducing my physical treatment gradually, as I feel ready. I started working full-time just before starting Sarno, and I think I would have felt overwhelmed to go from "Oh I can hardly type and need lots of special equipment, rest, stretching, and treatment" to "I can type a lot on any keyboard and don't need to do anything special". I first started to type more, then reduced and then eliminated my treatment and self-treatment, then cut down on breaks and stretching, then pretty much cut those down to "only if I feel like it, and not because of pain". I have taken small steps to returning to normal equipment. Each of these corresponds to a slight change in my beliefs about my capabilities and the origins of my problem. I think this is pretty much what Sarno advocates in his books, as well: a gradual return to normal. I don't really find it helpful to be sudden and absolutist about it, the "if you still do special stuff you're not doing Sarno" that you mention, though that certainly may work for some people. |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2006 : 12:09:51
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It seems to me that you're definitely on the right track. It's just a question of time, now.
All the best,
Hilary N |
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Doubting therapists & mechanical factors
