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ssjs
USA
147 Posts |
 Posted - 03/17/2006 : 14:56:27
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from what I see There is no need to express your anger "correctly" The main thing is knowing that there isn't anything wrong with your body.
The knowledge that there isn't anything structually wrong is the crux of the matter.
Of course it is good to know what is making you mad, but whether you can express it or not is not the whole answer.
I think psycho therapy is important at least for me...but feeling like you have to do think correctly can only make you more nuts.
Sandy |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 15:06:45
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Sandy
Your insightful statement that "feeling like you have to think correctly can only make you more nuts," is an important one. The stories we tell ourselves about what we must do or think in order to recover can actually be a hinderence to our recovery. It will be good to subject these assumptions to inquiry (questioning) to see how true they really are. The point is we can be a victim of our own thinking and lead a life of hell, or we can begin to question and confront our thinking. When you do this you will be very suprised at what you will find.
I am personally willing to go through this process when anyone on this forum using the four questions.
Peter
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gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 04:45:20
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Peter,
I have slept on all you had written and I think I am now little bid closer of what you meant.
Also I want to apology all of you here for being maybe too aggressive.
What I found is that I more believe in tomorrow pain than that it is TMS and can simply go by, or than I can be cured by God.
So, this is not about 100% of being sure but about in what we really want to believe (and why?).
Peter I am interested in going deeper with you. I will make my email address available or we can make our consideration as previously. I will be delighted.
M
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 14:13:47
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Peter,
how is your recovery going? I like the article you wrote and actually used a similar process to aid me in my recovery from tms |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 07:42:02
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JohnD
I have broken a lot of barriers in my road to recovery. Still a way to go yet though:)
Thanks for asking |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 07:51:31
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Monica,
That is wonderful that you are willing to continue the discussion. It is also wonderful you have trust in God to help you. The point of our discussion is to move into the psychological realm as per Dr. Sarno's recommendation. How we specifically do that is up to us and I have chosen the work of Byron Katie, but others my find othr books helpful which is fine too.
The reality is that many times thoughts enter our minds and we believe those thoughts without question. But when we subject these thoughts to inquiry (questioning) almost every time they are actually found to be untrue. Read my original post to get a taste of what I am trying to convey. Once we believe those thoughts we tend to act accordingly and we place ourselves in a prison or personal hell. Again, questioning these thoughts and challenging them seems to be only way out of this personal prison. |
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gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 08:03:52
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So this is all revolve around the affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true.
Why not?,
This is exactly like a pray.
Thank you for all.
When you are cured you will write the best handbook for people who want to get better.
I did not write“if” I wrote “when”
M
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 08:21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by gevorgyan
So this is all revolve around the affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true.
No, it is not what I had in mind, but if it works for you then please do pursue it. But the question comes back to this:
Is it true that that if you practice "affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true" that this is what it takes to recover?
Can you absolutley know that it is true that if you practice "affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true" that this is what it takes to recover?
How do you re-act when you think the thought that if you practice "affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true" that this is what it takes to recover?
and finally,
Who would you be without the thought that if you practice "affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true" that this is what it takes to recover?
Think about those answers carefully and look inside yourself to see what comes up. Question and challenge your thoughts Monica. Everything single thought that comes into your head subject them to these four questions. |
Edited by - n/a on 03/20/2006 08:22:49 |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 14:35:23
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Compulsive Identification With Thinking
Excerpt From Monte Hueftle's book "Get Rid Of The Pain In Your Butt Now." (pages 72-74)
.....almost everyone is suffering from some kind of compulsive
identification with thinking. We judge, we like, we
dislike, we become angry and have an outburst, we
try to control. We resist our life as it is now and go
searching for something or someone to save us. This
is the disease. We use our mind to go back into our
past and dig up some hurt and then seek revenge.
We resist what is happening now so we judge and
use our mind to go into the future where the perfect
job is waiting for us. Our mind creates endless
conflicts and problems and then provides us with
compulsive thought processes and activities to get
rid of them. We resist and try to change what is
happening now in the present moment, instead of
accepting and experiencing what is occurring within
our self.
Observe your mind! See for yourself! Can you
stop thinking? Can you stop judging? Can you stop
the internal dialogue whenever you want? If your
answer is no, then your mind is using you! Have you
ever listened to the dialogue in your mind? The voice
that comments, complains, judges, compares,
dislikes, rewinds to the past, and then fast forwards
to the future. You’re correct that this seems like
normal behavior because almost everyone is doing it.
This is what is causing our pain—insane,
compulsive, unconscious, toxic, repetitive,
energy draining mind activity. We are constantly
directing our energy outwards towards external
things and other people usually in an attempt to
repress our own emotions. So we weaken our
bodymind systems with this outward energy
draining and then we cause havoc throughout our
complex internal communication system by ignoring,
denying, and avoiding our feelings. Our internal
information signals, (energy) become stuck, stored,
blocked and chronically dysfunctional in their ability
to communicate properly throughout our system.
Blood flow becomes restricted, less oxygen is flowing
to our tissue and the result is physical pain,
depression, and a feeling of energy-less-ness. As a
result we become stuck in this compulsive cycle
repeating the same old thought patterns, focusing on
our injured bodies, listening to the past conditioning
on physical dysfunctions and either waiting or
searching for the miracle cure or doctor to fix us.
Does this frighten you? Are you intimidated to
know that your mind is using you? Or is it a relief to
know that this insane, energy draining, unconscious,
toxic mind activity is taking place and you can
reverse it?
Yes it is frightening and yes I think it is a relief to
know that this is happening. How do I free myself
from this energy draining mental activity?
By freeing your self from your mind. By being
“present, aware, and conscious”. By realizing that
you are not your mind. You are not the perfectionist,
judger, controller and ideal role player. These are
thought processes that your mind is using to control
you! Your mind is using you because you are
completely identified with your thoughts, mental
processes, and mind activities. Take some time now
to digest this information. Let it really sink in.
You free yourself from this insane,
unconscious, energy draining, pain causing
madness and heal your body by being
conscious present and aware.
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Edited by - n/a on 03/20/2006 14:36:04 |
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AriG00
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 17:13:47
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I read her books about a year ago, and they were very helpful.
I think it's a great idea to combine the treatment part of this
condition with her work, it makes perfect sense, in fact just
for today I did it, and I feel a lot better, I will definitely
include it into my daily journaling and routine. I think a lot
of "self help" books are very similar, but from my experience
the most simple ones make the most sense, nothing is
really that complicated, but it can definitely appear so.
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true?
Thinking about the source of pain (written by Peter McKay- March 14, 2006)
I think many times I blindly accept my thoughts instead of questioning them to see whether they are true or not.
Thought appears-------------> I can either accept it as being true or examine it to see if it is true for me or not.
In Byron Katie's experience, after examining every thought she had, she found every one of them to be untrue for her without exception. She is the author of "Loving What Is." This being the case, I ask the question "is this true also for my thoughts?" Are the thoughts I think true for me? Let's look at this more closely:
Thought appears: "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." So, let me inquire about this thought asking four questions:
1) Is it true? Is it true that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." On the surface of it it seems to be true as there appears to be a correspondence between certain movements and the onset of pain.
2) Is it really true? Can you absolutely know that it is true? When the question is asked more strongly it forces me to inquire more deeply before answering. I have to say that no, I cannot know for sure that my pain is due to a physical cause or that certain movements will induce more pain.
3) How do I re-act when I think the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." The answer to that question is obvious. When I think the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain," I act accordingly. Every time I do something to avoid pain I am telling myself that I believe the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." In other words, I buy into what my thoughts are telling me instead of questioning and ultimately challenging them through inquiry to see if they are really true.
4) Who would I be without the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain?" Well, I would do anything without restrictions, without any fear and would not give my movements a second thought.
That's right!!! Any anything I do to avoid pain- such as avoidance of certain movements- as I stated previously, is sending a message to myself that I believe that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." I am acting on thoughts that are not even true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, let me do the turn around statement to see if it is as true or truer than they original statement that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." Turned around reads:
- My pain is not due to a physical problem or to certain movements
- My pain is due to my thinking the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain."
Is that as true or even truer than my original statement?
Sometimes we live in the hell of our own thoughts and accept them blindly instead of subjecting them to inquiry. These four questions above and the turn arounds can be used on any thought or circumstance you encounter in life....
G |
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gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 02:50:15
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Peter,
I am thinking about all of this more and more, and of course maybe my lack of fluency in English impedes me to catch all of meaning.
BUT…
Should not we, let me say, “virtue” (analyzing of true and assurance of though)
the though that we identified as a source of our rage. Is that what you meant?
i.e. Is it true that my parents were never proud of me. e.t.c.
only this make sense for me, and it should be comparatively easy to deny each of though associated with our anger, disappointment, rage, whatever as we call it.
PETER was it your point from the beginning?
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Edited by - gevorgyan on 03/21/2006 02:53:08 |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 12:39:00
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Monica
All of us have thoughts that enter our minds. It is when we become identified with those thoughts and accept them without question is where our suffering lies. All suffering begins in our minds.
For example, let me take the thought "my parents were never proud of me." One can choose to believe that which will bring about an associated reaction or we can question that thought through the four questions.
Thought appears-"my parents were never proud of me."
Is it true? Is it true that "my parents were never proud of me."
Can I absolutely know that it is true that "my parents were never proud of me?"
How do I re-act when I think the thought that "my parents were never proud of me?"
Who would I be without the thought that "my parents were never proud of me?" And can you think of one peaceful reason to hold unto the thought that "my parents were never proud of me?"
Now, after answering those questions honestly to yourself, you might want to consider an opposite statement from your original statement to see if that is as true or truer for you.
For example, "my parents were never proud of me" could become:
My parents were proud of me
or
I was never proud of me
or
My thinking was ever proud of me.
The point Monica is to question your thoughts and do not accept them blindly. Don't automatically identify with what your mind is telling you. |
Edited by - n/a on 03/21/2006 12:42:54 |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 17:42:07
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Adding to what Peter said in the last post about the hypothetical thought "my parents were never proud of me"
After you identify that the statement isn't completely true, you can ask what is closer to the truth.
My thought process goes something like this
Old thought "my parents were never proud of me"
"is this really true, no i don't think so....so what is closer to the truth?"
"i think its closer to the truth that sometimes my parents were proud of me and sometimes they weren't"
then after coming up with a statement that is closer to the truth, its important to face the worst possible scenario. so by facing up the fact that my parents may not have been proud of me allows me to stop fretting over it because I am in the process of coming to terms with the worst outcome
"ok even though my parents may not be proud of me doesn't mean its the end of the world. they are allowed to have their own opinions just as I am allowed to have mine, and I can still be proud of me"
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gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 00:23:41
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Thank you Peter and John!
So, all you have written, step by step, falls into place. We are "elaborating" this of our minds (double/divided, as you wish) which firstly, generated anger, the second, stored it, as a reason of our physical symptoms. Using the Healthy Mind we work on the Problematic one. And the use of these four questions is excellent idea to do it!
And now journaling has sense for me, at last!
We must improve the wrong perception of world, done by our Problematic Mind. We must become a psychotherapist of our weaker mind.
M
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Edited by - gevorgyan on 03/22/2006 03:44:01 |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 08:13:31
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That is a good way of putting it John. You understand Byron Katie's work very well. It is when we indentify with our thoughts without question and resist or argue with reality (what is) that we expend a lot of energy and create for ourselves a personal hell. It all begins in the mind. I would guess that every thought we ever had in our lives was in fact untrue. When Byron Katie did the work on herself she found this to be the case for her. She actually clearly states that suffering is optional.
One good thing about this process is that it gets us to focus on our thoughts and away from the physical, which is a core treatment strategy for recovering from TMS. |
Edited by - n/a on 03/23/2006 19:19:07 |
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Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true?
