| Author |
 Topic  |
|
n/a
560 Posts |
 Posted - 03/14/2006 : 15:09:57
|
Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true?
Thinking about the source of pain (written by Peter McKay- March 14, 2006)
I think many times I blindly accept my thoughts instead of questioning them to see whether they are true or not.
Thought appears-------------> I can either accept it as being true or examine it to see if it is true for me or not.
In Byron Katie's experience, after examining every thought she had, she found every one of them to be untrue for her without exception. She is the author of "Loving What Is." This being the case, I ask the question "is this true also for my thoughts?" Are the thoughts I think true for me? Let's look at this more closely:
Thought appears: "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." So, let me inquire about this thought asking four questions:
1) Is it true? Is it true that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." On the surface of it it seems to be true as there appears to be a correspondence between certain movements and the onset of pain.
2) Is it really true? Can you absolutely know that it is true? When the question is asked more strongly it forces me to inquire more deeply before answering. I have to say that no, I cannot know for sure that my pain is due to a physical cause or that certain movements will induce more pain.
3) How do I re-act when I think the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." The answer to that question is obvious. When I think the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain," I act accordingly. Every time I do something to avoid pain I am telling myself that I believe the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." In other words, I buy into what my thoughts are telling me instead of questioning and ultimately challenging them through inquiry to see if they are really true.
4) Who would I be without the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain?" Well, I would do anything without restrictions, without any fear and would not give my movements a second thought.
That's right!!! Any anything I do to avoid pain- such as avoidance of certain movements- as I stated previously, is sending a message to myself that I believe that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." I am acting on thoughts that are not even true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, let me do the turn around statement to see if it is as true or truer than they original statement that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." Turned around reads:
- My pain is not due to a physical problem or to certain movements
- My pain is due to my thinking the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain."
Is that as true or even truer than my original statement?
Sometimes we live in the hell of our own thoughts and accept them blindly instead of subjecting them to inquiry. These four questions above and the turn arounds can be used on any thought or circumstance you encounter in life....
|
Edited by - n/a on 03/15/2006 06:05:37 |
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 17:58:46
|
Fascinating post. I know this much, I'm without question happiest when I'm not thinking about *me*. If I have to be thinking at all, the best kind of thought is that which is devoted to some sort of creative project, for example an essay I might be working on (I'm a free lance writer.)
Thoughts about how I feel, thoughts about my own mortality, thoughts about my appearance, thoughts about what someone might think about me, thoughts about whether I'm a success or a failure, this kind of thought is so much wasted energy. It's also a drag on my own health. |
 |
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 19:41:45
|
| The fact of the matter is thoughts are always with us. The question is how do we respond to them? Do we blindly believe them or do we question them to see if they are true or not? These four questions and the work of Byron Katie provide one model with I find quite powerful... |
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 21:57:55
|
During peak times for me, often athletics...golf...running...biking etc, it seems to me I'm thinking little, or not at all. Those times are rare, and seem to carry with them a kind of heightened consciousness.
Also, creative thought seems to me to be different in kind than the usual, everyday "noise." That too can be a kind of heightened consciousness...involving more spontaneous insight and less of the usual pointless chatter.
|
Edited by - art on 03/14/2006 22:00:13 |
|
|
|
Curiosity18
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 23:12:42
|
Peter,
Thank you for your ingenious merging of TMS with Byron Katie! I have listened to her tapes, but never thought about applying the four questions to TMS. It sure does make sense in my own healing journey. I also really have appreciated all of your summarization posts. And congratulations on tackling that bus trip!
Curiosity |
|
|
|
gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 05:36:43
|
Thanks Peter,
I must digid the text.
How was the trip?
Monika |
|
|
|
Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 06:26:25
|
Iv'e been making great progress lately but for the last week have woken up grumpy/angry and couldn't work out why.
Art wrote
"I know this much, I'm without question happiest when I'm not thinking about *me*. If I have to be thinking at all, the best kind of thought is that which is devoted to some sort of creative project" - I've lapsed into the old ways of chastising myself for what i've said/done, wishing i'd said/done something different and thinking about ME.
Thanks for the reminder, Art. |
|
|
|
gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 06:45:00
|
Dear Peter,
I wish this problem was so easy as you described.
Thinking this way, a recovery is as simply as moving the mountains-because when we start to be sure that we can do this by neglecting the previous thinking, we should be able to do this.
If human child is growing in the bird’s nest, fed by birds, thinking that mum and daddy can fly so I do-unfortunately is not supposed to fly.
But….very young child can perfect swim without the conscious that this difficult or dangerous. An argument for you.
As a Catholic I believe that faith makes miracles. The question is what we call miracles? Every easy day of my children and husband can also one of them. Maybe all of my successes in life is simply lack of fear of failure. It really can be.
But I much more prefer the theory with repressed emotions in spite of fact that I still do not know how to express them correctly. (I exactly know how not to do this).
This from me
regards,
Monika
|
Edited by - gevorgyan on 03/15/2006 06:46:25 |
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 07:52:59
|
It's hard Scotty. Damn hard. I'm terribly self-involved at times, which it seems to me is almost a hallmark of this TMS stuff.
|
Edited by - art on 03/15/2006 07:54:07 |
|
|
|
atg
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 12:10:02
|
Peter,
Your sharing your inner thought process is very helpful to me. Sometimes I feel shame when I think that the physical position I'm in is related to the pain. It helps me feel better about that to see that others similarly struggle. Sometimes it seems like it's so easy for people to accept it 100%.
The crazy thing is that I used to have severe upper back pain when driving or sitting in a movie theatre, but since my lower back pain started, my upper back pain is practically nonexistent in those situations (I suppose I don't need it anymore.) But still I find myself sometimes believing that the lower back pain is caused by the sitting. I'm just not sure HOW to stop believing this. |
|
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 15:04:20
|
Thanks for your comments Monica
With your kind permission let's do the work on one of your thoughts. You wrote:
"But I much more prefer the theory with repressed emotions in spite of fact that I still do not know how to express them correctly. (I exactly know how not to do this)."
What I hear you saying is that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery.
My question is: 1) Is it true that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery? I am not saying it is or isn't, I am just asking.
2) Can you absolutley 100% know it's true that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery? Sit with this question and answer with your feelings.
3) How do you re-act to the belief that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery?
and finally,
4) Who would you be without this belief or thought that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery?
I look forward to your response.....
|
|
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 15:07:52
|
Thanks atg for your comments and feeback.
What I hear you saying is that you have to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery and that you are not sure HOW to stop believing this.
Try the four questions I also asked Monica on this statement and see what comes up.....
) Is it true that you have to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery? I am not saying it is or isn't, I am just asking.
2) Can you absolutley 100% know it's true that it is you have to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery ? Sit with this question and answer with your feelings.
3) How do you re-act to the belief that you have to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery recovery?
and finally,
4) Who would you be without this belief or thought that you have to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery?
I sincerely look forward to your thoughts on this |
Edited by - n/a on 03/15/2006 17:09:50 |
|
|
|
Bonnie
Canada
33 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 19:53:29
|
Peter, thanks for bringing the questions out this way, I haven't read the book but lately every time something physical comes up I've been telling myself "nothing is what it seems". I'm learning that all those beliefs I had about my body and mind and how they operate are wrong and I need to question almost everything I've ever learned in the past.
Art, I agree with you about the creative process, when I'm writing or painting or doing almost anything creative I lose all track of what's going on in and around me. It's wonderful, is that what living mindfully and being in the moment is like, if it is I'll take it.
Bonnie |
|
|
|
gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 04:12:08
|
Peter…
You really made me confused…
But beneath are my honest answers
My question is: 1) Is it true that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery? I am not saying it is or isn't, I am just asking.
YES, I have red tons of book, describing the harmful effect of repressed emotions on health. I respect dr Sarno, who suggested that only considering the hidden rage can be enough to recover, but when this is not working maybe revealing emotions is the mean.
2) Can you absolutely 100% know it's true that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery? Sit with this question and answer with your feelings.
NO, I can not be 100% sure of anything. But the above assumption lets me have the aim in my painful life. This though is helping me somehow, but of course I can not be sure of it.
3) How do you re-act to the belief that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery?
Positively, but also confused because I still do not know how to do this.
Each of my trials makes me more anxious.
Vicious circle, but mine!
Yes indeed, I am ridiculous.
and finally,
4) Who would you be without this belief or thought that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery?
A person without any idea and hope of recovery.
Peter, are we going somewhere with this consideration? I wish.
But anyway thank you for making me think.
|
|
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 10:16:03
|
Monika (gevorgyan),
Yes, my questions have a goal, but mostly to get you to question the assumptions you have which impede your progress. I invite you to ask yourself again whether it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery, because this seems to be the mental block that you are experiencing. Your responce to the question has been:
"Positively, but also confused because I still do not know how to do this. Each of my trials makes me more anxious. Vicious circle, but mine! Yes indeed, I am ridiculous."
So the thought of whether it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery is bringing about these reactions. It is the thought, and your buying ino that thought that is the problem and you even admitted that you are not 100% sure it is true that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery . How do you react when you think a thought you are not even sure is true?
I also asked you "who would you be without this belief or thought that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" in order to bring about a recovery?" You answered by stating that you would be "A person without any idea and hope of recovery."
Without the belief or thought that it is necessary to express your repressed emotions "correctly" you would be "a person without any idea and hope of recovery." Is that true, and can you absolutely know that is true? Again, how do you react when you hold that belief and who would you be without the thought?"
I am not toying with you, but am sincerely inviting you to begin question these thoughts. As Dr. Sarno says, we have to think our way out of TMS.
I look forward to your responce once again, and thanks!!!!!!! You are actually helping me also. |
Edited by - n/a on 03/16/2006 16:43:36 |
|
|
|
atg
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 11:51:16
|
Peter, you ask some interesting questions.
1) Is it true that you have to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery? I am not saying it is or isn't, I am just asking.
No. One patient in Dr. Schechter's DVD session had 70% improvement (so far) in his RSI, and he still had doubt that it was not structural. But I've heard so many times that "you have to believe it not only intellectually, but viscerally." This definitely feeds into my perfectionism.
2) Can you absolutley 100% know it's true that it is you have to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery ? Sit with this question and answer with your feelings.
I am not 100% sure. Apparently though, it is a belief that is easy for me to embrace because it apparently makes me feel bad about myself (by feeling like a failure.)
3) How do you re-act to the belief that you have to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery recovery?
I feel very angry about it. I CAN'T believe it 100%, and it makes me feel powerless because I feel helpless to bring that about. Part of me wants someone to say, "You HAVE to believe it 100%. Just accept it!" So that I can get angry and say, "I CAN'T. I try, but I don't know what else to do. Tell me how?!"
and finally,
4) Who would you be without this belief or thought that you have to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery?
Well, I believe it for the most part, and it hasn't worked for me. So I feel like the only way I can be proactive in getting better is to somehow get myself to believe it more. That not believing it enough is the reason I'm not getting better. Without that belief, I suppose I'd be someone who didn't put pressure on myself to always be better or perfect. Without that belief, I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless. |
|
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 16:42:44
|
atg,
Thanks for responding to my questions.
Your answer confirms that you do not really believe one has to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery, and you gave a concrete example. That's a good start.
You also stated that holding or being asked to hold the belief that one has to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery makes you "feel bad about myself (by feeling like a failure.)" You also expressed that you were angry over the fact that you "CAN'T believe it 100%, and it makes me feel powerless because I feel helpless to bring that about."
You seem to be stuck, however, despite your first answer, on the belief that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery and since you don't really believe it 100% you feel trapped and don't know what else to do. It seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy. "I don't believe 100% so I won't or can't recover."
You also hold the belief that you have to "somehow get myself to believe it more" and that "That not believing it enough is the reason I'm not getting better." You admitted that "Without that belief, I suppose I'd be someone who didn't put pressure on myself to always be better or perfect."
Ahhhhh, now here is the heart of the matter. If you did not hold the belief that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery, then you would be "someone who didn't put pressure on myself to always be better or perfect."
So, it is the thought, and the buying into that thought which becomes a belief that is the problem.
You stated that "Without that belief, I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless."
Again I ask the question, Is this true? Can you absolutley 100% know it's true that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
How do you react when you think the thought that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
And finally, who would you be without the thought that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
I am only asking and your answers will help you and me both. Both of us are on the same path of self discovery. Thanks
|
|
|
|
atg
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 18:20:27
|
Peter, I feel like these questions are getting deep, but I can understand them after several reads.
Again I ask the question, Is this true? Can you absolutley 100% know it's true that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
Again, no, I don't know this 100%. I feel like this is true because sometimes when I feel like I haven't really gotten better, and I hope to, then I need a reason why I haven't and how it's still possible that I can. I know I can't give up, and I need a direction to go. So finding a difference between what I believe and the way that Schechter and Donald Dubin say I have to believe is grounds for a direction.
How do you react when you think the thought that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
I suppose this thought causes me to hold onto this belief even more, because I'm scared of how lost I might feel if I didn't believe it.
And finally, who would you be without the thought that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
Wow. That's a lot of double negatives. I just can't wrap my mind around this. I don't know. Out of control maybe?
I need to find something. Some direction to go. Some way to be proactive. If I'm not being proactive in my healing process, then I won't make progress. If I don't make progress I'll always be in pain because there will be nothing to make me better. |
|
|
|
gevorgyan
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 05:59:43
|
Peter,
Human life is based on faith or assumptions, as you want.
Before I bundled on Sarno, I was confused and destroyed by going from doctor to doctor. Some of them kissed me off having seen person in my age, some said that they wished to had such a spine like I do, some shrugged their shoulders and tried to invented new names of illness. You can for sure imagine my growing rage, additionally my own parents were talking something about simulation. Soon nobody around was paying attention of what I talk about back pain and feeling faint. It became plain.
I am person far from panic behavior, but I felt that I need help, so I started looking for. There were massages, acupuncture with Tibetan medicine, Filipina healer, lot of medicines, balsams, folk method and herbs. I do not have to add what was the result.
There was even exorcist.
But every time I started to believe in something new, that will help for sure-that mobilization made me stronger.
(And as I look at my life back, I was “aiming” my life. I do not know if there is such a word in English, but I was living from event to event.
My childhood was screw up, I was living from one summer holidays till another, looking for possibility to leave family home for a month or two.)
This efforts were before I have red our favorite MBP. And working with my mind is like the latest link in chain, which I can do for myself on my own. The rest is in the Hands of God.
Achieving 100% of assurance in my assumption is for me as easy like growing my faith in God to the “seed” dimension, because this is enough to move the mountain, to heal myself and others. So, for me is better to focus all my efforts on the second issue.
Peter, if I would like to answer your questions according to my feeling we will for sure refute not only my assumption taken from Sarno, but also whole science at this world. And we will find immense amount of thought which can impede our recovery, progress and success.
And I will have no idea what to do apart from praying. My symptoms probably will be the same but I will leave this forum.
I think that alternative for one assumption should be another assumption but not lack of them.
About 100% sure of TMS-oposite: can anyone be 100% sure that in one’s body doesn’t develop cancer just now? Sorry for being drastic. But this question rules out our “cure”.
I really appreciate all your quest, but people all around the world believe in something that in most of cases has no logical dimension at all.
This forum has no sense, but we are going to enter it from time to time.
We are not dealing here with palpable and instant effects of healing in spite that Sarno said that only moving attention from body to mind should help. We are sharing pieces of information here, we are supporting a new guys. Because we BELIVIE that knowledge is our medicine. Non of us is 100% sure of that. All of us will be confused if you ask them this question.
Once more thank you for your impute. I mostly look for news from you here. Your passion is uncanny and it must lead somewhere.
Monika
|
Edited by - gevorgyan on 03/19/2006 04:46:16 |
|
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 06:42:25
|
Atg,
Whew, you gave me a lot to think about and I would like to proceed further. The purpose here is to get you thinking about your thoughts, how you buy into them and begin the process of questioning to see whether they are true or not. I will not cover all over your points, but only your last paragraph.
You wrote: 1)"I need to find something. Some direction to go. Some way to be proactive.
2 If I'm not being proactive in my healing process, then I won't make progress.
3. If I don't make progress I'll always be in pain because there will be nothing to make me better."
Now I invite you to subject these thoughts to the the four questions separately and see what comes up. Think about them deeply and see how they may contribute to the slow recovery. Again, I am only asking with the view to getting you to think. Your answers not only help you, but all those who read them, including me.
Is it true?
Can you absolutley know it's true?
How do you react when you think that thought?
Who would you be without this thought?
These are important questions as they are challenging the set of assumptions you seem to have in your mind. Remember, it is the thoughts, and our believing them that is the problem, although it may not seem that way right now. But be patient and you will see eventually the wisdom behind this. I recommend you purchase Byron Katie's book "Loving What Is" - especially on CD - as the book will help you understand further what I am trying to do here.
I look foward to your answers. |
Edited by - n/a on 03/17/2006 12:58:54 |
|
|
|
n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 13:03:04
|
| Thanks for sharing Monika. I would like to go deeper with you if you are interested.... |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true?
