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art
1903 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2006 : 19:58:06
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I try to steer clear of these kinds of posts, but I know there are a bunch of runners on the forum, so I thought I'd throw this out there...
It kind of brings up a general question in that I'm never quite sure how to proceed when these over use issues spring up...I tend not to want to take even one rest day as I'm committed to the TMS diagnosis, and yet on the other hand, I can't help wondering if simple prudence would dictate some sort of rest...
Anyone? |
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chicago
85 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2006 : 20:22:13
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| Art I used to run alot some years back. Since having a family and suffering through TMS I run very infrequently. The funny thing is that even if I'm in horrible pain I can still run no problem. That's why I know its TMS. Well getting back to your question. I think running is great exercise and good for our spirit. However as you get older it makes alot of sense to cross train doing activities you like. Swimming, biking etc. are a whole lot easier on the joints. What ever you decide to do enjoy. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2006 : 23:24:56
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Art--I guess you would have to ask yourself why you run. If it is for general health, relaxation, enjoyment or challenge, fine, but if it is for some other unhealthy reason or obsession, that could be a problem. I have been running on/off for 28 years. I am very casual about it. Some years I feel motivated to run marathons, while others, I may not even run very much, opting instead to do other things. In recent years I have cross trained much more (weights, hiking, swimming, bicycling). I'm always in pretty good shape, but I don't feel obligated to do any particular sport.
As for overuse issues, that can be a problem. I think I tend to get injured if I do too much running; ususally hamstring tendonitis, but also plantar fascitis. I am very fortunate to have very good knees even after all these yrs of running so I disagree with those who say running necessarily damages the knee joints. In someone who is not overweight, no major structural imbalances, it might do more good than harm because it toughens the bone and surrounding tissue. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 03:24:48
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Good questions wrld
Mostly, I run because I love it...I'm as happy as I ever get when I'm out there running my guts out, especially in the heat...
In the last 6 months, in the face of maybe a half dozen over use issues of varying severity, I've really not taken any time off at all, beyond my usual scheduled rest days, which at the age of 54 are plentiful...So far, I've not regretted that...
But the truth is I'm never one hundred percent sure how to proceed. I guess the bottom line for me is if I start "resting" things, I'm in danger of going back to the old thinking, and I definitely don't want to do that |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 06:02:57
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Art-
I am an avid, avid runner and I would consider myself very obsessed with it. I completely understand your dilemma when pain crops up. I believe that it is difficult to discern if something is an overuse injury or TMS. I know that I fight this all the time. No matter what anyone says, running IS hard on the body and I often go through the tape loop of "is it an injury or TMS?" Go to a PT and get treatment or continue to run through it. If I run through it then i won't get better. Art, is that the kind of tape loop you go through? I find this very difficult. As an obsessed runner I never want to take time off or lose time recovering and treating.
I do realize that my obsession is a big part of my TMS. When you run 30-45 miles a week and you feel pain - it is a battle to decide what to do. |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 06:20:56
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wrldtrv
Plantar fascitis? Is this really a serious diagnosis or just the old TMS gremlin? |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 07:35:35
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quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
wrldtrv
Plantar fascitis? Is this really a serious diagnosis or just the old TMS gremlin?
Dr. Sarno believes Plantar fascitis is TMS. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 08:19:54
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| Has anyone lately had much luck with resolving plantar f. with Sarno concepts? (I did a search on this web site and found some relevant posts -there appeared to be some very limited success reported.) I've been having rather severe heal pain for one month especially upon arising in the morning and getting up from a sitting position after a long time sitting. I'm still walking briskly an hour a day and want to get back into running. I don't want to see a podiatrist or orthopedist because I'll get into the structural diagnosis and physical treatment thing. |
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nancy
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 09:33:52
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I "had" PF for 18 months or so a few years ago. I had a phone consult with Dr. Sarno (having been a patient 15 years earlier for back pain). He told me it was TMS and to start running again. I did so and within a few weeks the pain was completely gone. I've run a few half-marathons since, and have otherwise been running consistently. I've had one flare-up, which I ran through. It doesn't help to walk rather than run.
Nancy |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 11:36:08
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hsb and all interested others...
I think all runners must suffer this same dilemma...You're right, running is hard on the body...yet "hard" is a relative term.
My bias now is to treat everything as if it's TMS until proven otherwise. It's scary, yes, but thus far I haven't been sorry.
I'm going to take one day off...today....and tomorrow go for an easy five miler and see how it goes..
I'll report back!! |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 13:13:20
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I don't care what Sarno said about Plantar Fascitis. Remember, he also said ulcers was TMS and it's not. He can be wrong--not that he's necessarily wrong about PF; I think sometimes it could be TMS and other times, simply a plain old injury.
For me, the PF was a palpable swelling in the heel that took over a year to resolve. The main problem with healing is that one can't stay off one's feet. If you don't believe it is TMS, but an actual injury (Nancy), try this. Don't walk around barefoot, espec in the morning when you first get out of bed because that is when the area is most tight (and why it feels better later in the day when warmed up). Use slippers. Ice it several times a day and when it feels better, start gentle stretching (gastrocnemius and soleus muscles of calves). You can also try strengthening and stretching exercises with a golf ball (try to pick it up with your toes, roll it around under your arch). Make sure your shoes are not too worn. Check to be sure you don't need orthotics or inserts. Don't expect instant results. The blood supply to the area is poor, it is hard to rest, so it takes time. |
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electraglideman
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 13:49:02
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Art,
I think your on the right track. The older we get the longer our bodies take to recover. I'm no expert on the subject but it sounds reasonable to me that it would take a 54 year old twice as long to recover from strenuous exercise than it would for a 24 year old.
I'm 54yoa and I ran for twenty years and had to give it up because if my shins. I ran every day and if I missed a day, for what ever reason, I felt like I had committed some kind of sin.
If your body is not given enough time to recover you will do damage to it. Finding that right amount of recovery time, I believe, is the trick.
I think nutrition, age, and genetics are the biggest factors when it comes to recover time and the first two are constantly changing.
I hope you find the right amount of recovery time and continue your passion for running. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 14:12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
I don't care what Sarno said about Plantar Fascitis. Remember, he also said ulcers was TMS and it's not.
Really? I don't believe it.
For 30 years we were all happy to believe that stress caused ulcers. So what happened? The incidence of ulcers declined dramatically and we started to develop new things like RSI and plantar fascitis.
Now suddently somebody discovers a bacteria and stress has nothing to do with ulcers? How do we explain the presence of h.plyori in the stomachs of healthy people with no ulcers? Could it be that h.plyori is the agent but a psychological process is responsible for suppressing the immune system's response to it in some people, leading to ulcers?
Of course there can be plain old injuries. But plantar fascitis is often diagnosed for chronic foot pain where no acute injury has occurred. Sure, it's possible this diagnosis is valid in some people, but it's also very possible it is TMS much if not most of the time.
So go ahead and ice it and stretch it and go for PT and wear orthotics ... and if it is TMS then this will serve to keep the symptoms around, until such a time you either learn to ignore it or your mind finds a new symptom that better grabs your attention. |
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nancy
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 14:31:18
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My PF only went away when I threw out my orthotics, night splits, foot exercisers; stopped doing the stretching, icing, heating, etc. etc. etc. I had no palpable swelling and never had an "injury" that I could identify. There's a huge foot-pain industry similar to the back industry that keeps the market for "treatment" very strong. There's also a conventional wisdom that is very similar to that found in the back pain industry (i.e., rest, ice, orthotics, etc.) All of it serves only to perpetuate the pain cycle, as far as I can tell.
If you believe in TMS for back pain, there's no reason why feet shouldn't be different. In any case, the feet really aren't meant to rest, as you point out, and weaken very quickly when not used, TMS or no, so you can do yourself harm by babying them when it's not even necessary. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 15:21:39
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| I cannot identify any trauma or overuse event in connection with my PF. One day I just had it. The area is very sore to push on, but hey, that could happen, I suppose, if my brain decided to limit the blood flow to that area. And now I have less leg pain (which was much better anyhow due to Sarno's concepts) and less headaches. So, I figure it must be TMS symptom substitution.....Now, if I had fallen off a roof, and landed on my feet, I might lean towards the structural diagnosis. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 15:23:31
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I had what I believe to be genuine PF once, as a result of wearing golf shoes that didn't fit..I had severe localized pain along one tendon and it happened all in one day after wearing these much too big shoes on a very hilly golf course...
Ok, that's that. Since then, I've had many smaller "attacks" of heel pain and tendon soreness and they've all gone away in response to thinking TMS.
There's no doubt that runners/athletes have a special problem. We all run the very real risk of actual overuse injuries. Having said that, I think it's important to understand that the risk is not nearly as high as we've gotten used to thinking
It's also critical for those of us who obsess about the possibility of injury, who live in fear of not being able to pursue the activity we in some cases loves more than anything else in life, to understand those fears and worries are part and parcel of TMS. I've wasted so much time and energy, so much of my substance in needless worry that it truly makes me very sad..
The good news is it's not too late...not for me, not for any of us.
I can't tell you how much better my life is these days...I'm healthier than I would have thought possible even six months ago....from food allergies, to hypoglycemia, to running injuries....all either gone or almost gone.
I have much gratitude to Dr. Sarno and the good people of this forum. |
Edited by - art on 03/02/2006 15:26:54 |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 15:56:24
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| I should mention that I ran 6 miles a day - every day (unless I was extremely sick) - for 10 years and never once had any overuse injury - so I wonder if the pain runners develop is really due to "overuse". How much of it is really TMS taking hold when your brain sees the opportunity - when your brain realizes that you have pushed yourself beyond your normal limits. |
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Andrew2000
40 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 08:46:26
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"I cannot identify any trauma or overuse event in connection with my PF. One day I just had it. I suppose, if my brain decided to limit the blood flow to that area."
Same is true for me -- woke up one day "out of the blue" with PF. One foot, then to the other, back and forth - went through orthodics, cortisone shots, new shoes/sneakers, the works ... till I found Dr. S and started making mind-body connections. I think fear in my life created the problem. As another poster has said in the past, "just do it" has worked well for me in conjunction with looking within myself more to figure out all the things I felt/feel afraid of: asserting myself more at work, at home, etc. Holding in a lot of anger, too.
Am able to do so much more than I could six months ago, am back at the gym 5 times a week -- the pain comes and goes now vs. being there all the time ...
Apart from Dr. Sarno maybe some on the board are familiar with Louise Haye's material ... in her book "You Can Heal Your Life" which was written in the mid-80s (but I just discovered it) I was amazed that she too not only subscribes to the mind-body connection, but comments that foot problems are all about fear - which was my gut instinct after reading Dr. Sarno.
So for whatever it's worth, if you're having foot problems think about what's causing fear in your life. See if you can let go of some or all of it ... |
Edited by - Andrew2000 on 03/03/2006 08:48:13 |
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nancy
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:14:26
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"'I cannot identify any trauma or overuse event in connection with my PF. One day I just had it. I suppose, if my brain decided to limit the blood flow to that area.'
Same is true for me -- woke up one day "out of the blue" with PF. One foot, then to the other, back and forth - went through orthodics, cortisone shots, new shoes/sneakers, the works ... till I found Dr. S and started making mind-body connections. I think fear in my life created the problem. As another poster has said in the past, "just do it" has worked well for me in conjunction with looking within myself more to figure out all the things I felt/feel afraid of: asserting myself more at work, at home, etc. Holding in a lot of anger, too. "
I could have written the above, and am very interested to know about the role fear plays in this process. Since reading your post, I've been thinking about my fears as well. My first bout with PF came a few months after 9/11 ( I live in NYC) and I had been "soldiering" on with a lot of palpable fear on a daily basis. I always thought that the timing was not a coincidence.
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altherunner
Canada
511 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 21:46:48
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Art - My most painful problem was neck and back pain, but I also had:
plantar facsitis, shin splints, hamstring pull, groin pull, painful
bunion, knee pains. They just moved around took turns distracting me, and keeping me from running. They have all gone (thank god!) |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 22:16:37
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I can't say that my Plantar Fascitis appeared out of nowhere. I think there was some definite overuse there, as I had run two marathons in three months; whereas, usually I would do one every year or two. Secondly, I could actually feel a bump, a swelling, where scar tissue had built up. The only mystery about it was the foot it appeared in. I had always had problems with the other foot, not this one. And it hung on for a very long time despite cutting my running to nearly nothing for the next year.
I also have chronic hamstring tendonitis (at the knee). It flares up at the slightest overstretching or hard run. Only one leg. I attribute this chronic problem to the partial rupture of my hamstring probably 20 yrs ago. There is still a small swelling upon contraction where part of the muscle is lying useless. As long as I can remember I've had irritation in that tiny area where the hamstring inserts into the back of the knee.
While these seem to be real physical problems, I have certainly had others that almost certainly were mind-body. I'm thinking of the 10 year period I went to chiropracters for back pain. All I know is, the pain only stopped when my insurance stopped paying! I've been mostly pain free ever since. |
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Runner's knee
