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Sis
USA
19 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2004 : 09:15:17
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In HBP Sarno reads: Persistent compression of a nerve will produce objective numbness (absence of pain on testing). This is different from the subjective sensation of numbness that patients sometimes feel in a leg or arm.
Could someone kindly explain what he is saying here. Also I don't recall reading anything in either books about whether deadness or heaviness in the legs or arms is also TMS. Sarno talks alot about how scar tissue and even large benegn tumors in the spine-neither he believes causes PAIN. What about deadness, loss of motor skills, heaviness? I can't find lit. on this in his books. Does anyone know if these symptoms are TMS. These symptoms are not your typical numbness and tingling sensations. Any thoughts,help?
When I sleep certain ways (which is hard not to do ) I experience these symptoms upon awakening. He doesn't mention anything about this in detail. My Dr. says when I lay a certain way the scar tissue is then pushed up against the nerve casuing numbness-deadness-lack of motor skills. It happens here and there-not everytime I lay in those positions..
Any input will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
cyn |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 09:52:08
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I don't think there is much to gain by trying to understand the science of Dr. Sarno's theory. Much of it is not backed up by any conclusive studies, and may be flat out wrong in some respects.
It's more important to accept that it doesn't matter. The mechanism by which the brain induces symptoms is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the brain does induce symptoms, for the purpose of distracting us from the repressed rage.
The fact that you experience symptoms "when you sleep certain ways" is an example of conditioning. The fact that "it happens here and there" should be proof of that. You must try not to think physical. That means accepting the fact that the numbness is not related to the way you sleep. It also means not even thinking about scar tissue and nerve inpingement.
I prefer not to think about the details of Dr. Sarno's theory. The brain has an infinite number of ways in which it can induce symptoms in the body. Assuming you have seen a doctor to rule out tumors and other serious ailments, I would treat all nerve/muscle related symptoms as TMS, including numbness, deadness, lack of motor skills.
The only other choice is to go down the path of orthopaedists and MRIs, and eventually find a doctor willing to cut you open to try to "fix" the problem that is not there in the first place. |
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Sis
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2004 : 22:17:05
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Thanks Dave- I realize that I need to think physical. I've been able to do that with some real good success realting to the pain, but when it comes to waking up and not feeling or being able to move your leg...well I just havn't been able to wrap my brain around that one yet.
By the way-I've already been cut open three times. I've had three low back surgeries in the last 20 yrs-the latest in 1998 (a three level fusion) I find so much info in Sarnos books and tape about the pain but nothing much about the symptoms that I am talking about. Considering that I found out about Sarno after my body was cut 3 x's It worries me that I may be in a different category then the rest because now I've had altering surgery that my head keeps telling me could have caused treal physical problems!????
Please give me some pointers. Thanks
cyn |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 08:50:12
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I can't speak from experience when it comes to surgery. All I can say is that you need to accept that you can't go backwards in time.
Personally I agree with Dr. Sarno that scar tissue does not cause physical symptoms. Scar tissue is part of the body's natural healing process. Many of Dr. Sarno's patients have had surgery and have gone on to fully recover.
Have you read The Mindbody Prescription? There are a wider range of symptoms discussed there than in his previous book. Nevertheless I think you need to try to get away from thinking physical.
For sake of argument, say it's not TMS, say the surgery was responsible for the symptoms. Now what? What would you do? Will you go back for more surgery? Will you seek alternative treatments? Or will you just learn to live with it? And what do you need to do to learn to live with it? Learn to ignore the symptoms. Coincidentally this is the first step in treating it as TMS.
Basically what I'm saying is that you have nothing to lose now by treating it as TMS. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2004 : 14:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Sis
Thanks Dave- I realize that I need to think physical. I've been able to do that with some real good success realting to the pain, but when it comes to waking up and not feeling or being able to move your leg...well I just havn't been able to wrap my brain around that one yet.
By the way-I've already been cut open three times. I've had three low back surgeries in the last 20 yrs-the latest in 1998 (a three level fusion) I find so much info in Sarnos books and tape about the pain but nothing much about the symptoms that I am talking about. Considering that I found out about Sarno after my body was cut 3 x's It worries me that I may be in a different category then the rest because now I've had altering surgery that my head keeps telling me could have caused treal physical problems!????
Please give me some pointers. Thanks
cyn
Sis -- I had two laminectomies and one two level anterior fusion that did not help the pain in my left lower leg at all. However, after finally getting serious about doing the Sarno anti-TMS work, and not allowing myself to obsess or visualize about the physical, I have gotten, I would say, 75% better. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2004 : 19:34:46
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Sis,
I think it is common to feel that Sarno's TMS does not apply to "me". That he does not write "enough" about my symptom. I felt that way too until I had a very dramatic experience that demonstrated the TMS moving around phenomenon. My TMS pain moved from my butt to my neck within a few hours and stayed their for a week. It then returned to my hip but since the experience I have been able to decrease the pain appreciably. I had fully accepted Sarno's theory on an intellectual level for nearly a decade and was "98%".
Experiencing the pain movement phenomenon in a very physical way enabled me to internalize TMS theory in a deeper viceral level. To quote the Edna Milay line from one of Sarno's books, "The heart is slow to learn what the quick mind sees at every turn", or something like that.
I re-read the page he wrote about hips and saw it in a new light as applying to me. I had read the same words numerous times previously and felt as you did, my pain is different-it's scar tissue, traumatic osteo-arthritis, etc, etc, etc,.
Many of Sarno's patients have had surgery's like you, apparently un-necessarily. Hopefully your's have not exacerbated your TMS but I'm sure it adds a whole extra level of doubt. Go to the index of Sarno's books and find the symmptoms that apply to you and keep reading them until you can accept that they apply to you also. Come back to the board for help in understanding them and how they apply to you. Good luck! You are not alone. |
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Sis
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2004 : 22:42:52
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Go to the index of Sarno's books and find the symmptoms that apply to you and keep reading them until you can accept that they apply to you also. Come back to the board for help in understanding them and how they apply to you. Good luck! You are not alone.
Thanks for your input however,I keep looking and Sarnos Books do not mention anywhere the problems I am having. He talks about numbness and pins and needles, I awake with lack of motor skills in my Left leg and foot. I can't lift it, move the foot up and down at the ankle, lift the leg into bed .It feels like toatl dead weight-no pins and needles. Mr Dr. says that scar tissue is wrapped around the nerves causing the symptoms. I desperately don't want to believe him. I pray to God that he is wrong and that it is TMS but because of my symptoms not being in the book and Sarno talks in his book about pressure on the nerves causing numbness-I can't seem to 100% believe it's TMS. That's also why I asked at the start of my orig. post for someone to help me understand what Sarno means when he speaks about objective and subjective numbness. Please Help!
cyn |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2004 : 07:36:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sis
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Go to the index of Sarno's books and find the symmptoms that apply to you and keep reading them until you can accept that they apply to you also. Come back to the board for help in understanding them and how they apply to you. Good luck! You are not alone.
Thanks for your input however,I keep looking and Sarnos Books do not mention anywhere the problems I am having. He talks about numbness and pins and needles, I awake with lack of motor skills in my Left leg and foot. I can't lift it, move the foot up and down at the ankle, lift the leg into bed .It feels like toatl dead weight-no pins and needles. Mr Dr. says that scar tissue is wrapped around the nerves causing the symptoms. I desperately don't want to believe him. I pray to God that he is wrong and that it is TMS but because of my symptoms not being in the book and Sarno talks in his book about pressure on the nerves causing numbness-I can't seem to 100% believe it's TMS. That's also why I asked at the start of my orig. post for someone to help me understand what Sarno means when he speaks about objective and subjective numbness. Please Help!
cyn
I thought that I remember Sarno writing about how he has helped folks with significant motor deficits -- such as a foot drop? However, you really do have substantial motor problems upon awakening - even more significant than a foot drop. It could be conditioning/expectations, but I think that you must see a TMS doctor in person to "settle" the matter even if this requires long distance travel. If you're not willing to do this, any TMS work is not going to be effective because of your (reasonable) level of doubt. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2004 : 08:24:33
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Dr. Sarno does not have all the answers. You can't expect him to list every possible TMS symptom in his books.
It's far more important to understand the concept of TMS. The symptoms are tailored for each individual for maximum impact. Clearly you are highly fearful of the numbness in your foot, and very obsessed with it -- a perfect opportunity for TMS to settle in.
If you are in the New York area I highly suggest you see Dr. Sarno. I have no doubt he would diagnose you with TMS.
Instead of looking for inconsistencies between your symptoms and those described in his books, why not look for consistencies. The fact that the symptoms are worse when you "sleep a certain way" is conditioning. The fact that the symptoms improve during the day is highly suggestive of TMS. (If it were scar tissue wrapped around the nerves as Mr. Dr. suggests, why don't you have the symptom all the time?) Most importantly, I would look for similarities between your personality and life situations and those described in the book.
But again, I will go back to what I said before. What if it is scar tissue? What will you do? There's not much you can do other than learn to live with it, right? So learn to live with it, to ignore it, to get on with your life and stop obsessing about it. |
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Jim D.
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2004 : 11:05:37
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If it were scar tissue wrapped around the nerves as your doctor suggests, why don't you have the symptom all the time?
I think this question from Dave is very important. (We are assuming your condition improves during the day.) If that is a correct assumption, then there you have the inconsistency typical of TMS, and that is the sort of evidence I look for when I am wondering whether some pain is TMS or not. Why would the scar tissue hurt in the morning and not later?
Also, I think all of us have gone through the trap of thinking "my pain is different." In my own case, I had back pain that didn't seem to need anything to cause it to flare up. Then when that was gone, I had elbow pain. That seemed different to me because it appeared to be something I caused (by exercise). "This is real pain," my brain said, "not like the back pain at all." And the elbow pain has been very difficult to overcome (though the inconsistency of when it happens makes me believe it is also TMS). As Dave recently suggested on another topic, the mind knows exactly what to do to make you believe in the pain and thus cause maximum distraction. You may be thinking, "I don't have pain, I have numbness." Obviously numbness is a better distractor for you; elbow pain probably wouldn't do for you what TMS needs to do. Give the anti-TMS work a try--it can't make the situation any worse. |
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Allan
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2004 : 19:16:21
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Hello Sis.
Back to your first posting. I believe objective numbness means that there is no pain in the nerve and that we are not aware of it. It is only determined by testing. Subjective numbness means that we are aware of numbness, for example, in an arm or a leg. It is only in reference to where Dr. Sarno is describing the error in diagnosing a problem as a “pinched nerve” on page 106. I don’t believe that it has anything to do with your condition.
To answer your question relative to the inability to move a leg, Dr. Sarno refers to motor nerves and sensory nerves as well as motor and sensory nerves all having the possibility of being oxygen deprived and causing problems. I believe that this applies in your case.
In my own case, I had extreme weakness in both legs. It apparently was not as extensive as in your case but still it was disabling. I walked with a cane. I had to pull myself up stairs or inclines by railings as I had such little strength in my legs. This muscle weakness proved to be TMS. When my back pain disappeared the weakness in my leg muscles disappeared also.
Dave’s points are very meaningful and should be helpful to you in your case.
You can recover. Others have. You can also.
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Need help interpreting Sarnos Nerve theory
