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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2005 : 14:16:16
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Hi everybody.
So I've been through an Hellacious month of fighting with my wife over down-to-the-core real issues.Family,religion,Money,Values.....the real stuff,not just 'you're always late' or 'I do all the work around here'.....
I'm hurt to the core of my being ,scared(just went through bankruptcy and started my own business...started well,but has slowed down) and not even living in my own home.
Went to a counselour,but resolved nothing,talk,fight,talk,fight,talk,fight,fight,fight.
So I'm Broke,Single,Homeless,Idle and ANGRY!!
However,I'm totally painfree as always.
Than.....My wife and I have a moment of clarity after days and days apart.After much prayer and personal struggle,I realize that if I really Love her that my Ego and pride can't dictate how I'm going to treat her.We begin to treat each other with a little respect and LISTEN,and without the aid of a counselour,have begun to agree to repair our marriage.
Than ...after YEARS of being painfree my lower back starts hurting.
This is one of those deep dark Mystery's.Did it come because my conscious mind is out of sync with my childish unconscious? or because now that that particular wall was breached it brought me to my next most pressing problem,my personal finance?
According to Louise Hay,the low back is finance and ability to support ones self.Maybe because I'm our primary childcare provider I feel as if making amends with my wife returns me to position of housewife-dad?Maybe she's wrong and it's really residual anger at my wife,or frustration at having to be adult and try to resolve problems that as of yet we have no solutions for?
Anyways,It's not bad....I guess years of TMS therapy have reduced it to an annoyance.First thing I did when I felt it was go out and play ball,lift some weights and go swimming.It keeps trying to get my attention,but I won't give it the time of day.My mind won't buy it anymore,but somewhere inside of me is still trying to sell it.
I was just wondering what some opinions might be.Making up too quick for my subconscious? Finance? maybe I was unconsciously looking forward to getting divorced(freedom) and now my mind is angry that I chose commitment(trapped)...hmmmmmmm??
Funny,haven't felt it at all today until I started writing this post
peace(sometimes)
Baseball65 |
Edited by - Baseball65 on 07/19/2005 14:18:33 |
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marytabby
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 16:46:35
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"maybe I was unconsciously looking forward to getting divorced(freedom) and now my mind is angry that I chose commitment(trapped)...hmmmmmmm??"
Sounds feasible to me for sure. You had it all set in your mind the choice you had to make and then you second gussed yourself. The inner child probably doesn't want the responsibility anymore and is lashing out in anger through your back. Just a guess... what do I know?
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 17:21:03
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Hello Baseball65:
If it is a financial issue, perhaps the wild boy in you isn't completely accepting of having to be responsible for a family. Contrary to what Freudian psychology would say, I don't believe that you absolutely have to be effected by childlike patterns of thought. I've been finding out that we do have a choice.
According to the Freud way of thinking, somebody such as Mother Theressa or Albert Schweitzer had no choice but to have a bunch of inner rage boiling within them, because their childish selves weren't being allowed to have their way as they lived their lives in a selfless way. I don't believe that this is true. If within their hearts they felt really good about their selfless way of life, then definitely they didn't have to be effected by childish tendencies. Our minds have much more freedom than that. To have freedom from tendencies we consider negative, we first have to believe that we have the ability to let go of them.
With the above in mind, perhaps you have the option of telling the childish part of your mind: "Forget it marky, I'm going to be responsible and take care of my family, and feel good about doing so. Therefore, I'm finished with you."
My guess is that you've had a number of experiences in your life where you let go of stubborn, childish, and unhelpfull patterns of thought. I believe it is a mistake to believe that they are still lurking around in some manner that can cause you a problem. They could only do so if you were in some way still giving them life. For instance, by believing in them.
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Laura
USA
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 21:36:11
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Baseball,
I agree with Mary's take on this. I think your subconscious saw "freedom" and now it realizes it's still "trapped" with all the adult responsibilities. Thankfully, you are so attuned to listening to your own body that you see it for what it is. You even saw that just by writing about it you noticed the pain more.
I just got into a blowout with our strong willed 13 year old. She doesn't understand why it's not okay with my husband and I that she hang out outside with five boys (her friends). She just really doesn't get it. She is quite naive. My husband even said to her "Do you see any other girls outside hanging out walking around with a group of 13 year old boys?" This was after she told us that we are "too overprotective." Finally, I couldn't take anymore and got up and walked into the laundry room to put a load of clothes in. I was pulling the towels out of the washing machine and "whoosh," instant dizziness. It's probably the same thing as you and your back.
It's hard being a grownup and dealing with all this bulls---. I understand how you feel. I really do think that that's why your back is acting up. I wish you the best of luck in resolving things.
Laura
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2005 : 08:50:06
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Baseball,
i don't have much time today to give my two cents on this - but just wanted to say that my heart goes out to you for all you are going through right now. I don't think you need to worry at all about the return of your back pain. You probably haven't had this much stress in a very long time - you are being pulled in all sorts of different directions and the brain can only handle so much. Just sit, journal and let out your anger in a safe environment (car - top of a hill etc. ) It will go - just remember not to give it any power.
Suz |
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2005 : 13:09:24
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Thanks everybody.
I really don't know.I think Mary probably hit a resounding note with pointing out the responsibility v. child issue.The time I had my case of TMS that 'took me to the mat' I had just left the carefree life of living with a wealthy divorced model who was willing to take care of me,to the responsibility of reuniting with my wife and working my butt off 12 hours a day,6 days a week(ooooww!...my butt just burned when I wrote this )
quote:
They could only do so if you were in some way still giving them life. For instance, by believing in them.
Now THAT was heavy.I believe a lot of what Freud said.I do believe we are effected by childhood stuff until we become aware of the condition and have a motivation to change it
See.....I ditched the model to be reconciled with my wife,I ditched a record deal to be there for my son and wife,I've ditched partying at festivals I've played at to be with my family,I've ditched,I've ditched,I'ved ditched....into infinity.
The child inside would have had me take the easier path-of-least-resistance.
So,going back to what you said,I sat alone with my anger,resentment and constructed a "world without my wife" in my head for three weeks of unabated anger and frustration.I pictured and envisioned freedom to do,say and go wherever I wanted to.Being poor never mattered to me when I was single and childless...it was part of the fun of living outside of the system.
I LIKED living in squalor,I liked getting a free meal or a place to stay from some benevolent temporary girlfriend,I liked leaving luxury to sleep in my car in the park,because I was free-er than anybody could possibly imagine.Every day was an adventure....not knowing where you're going to end up...Oh sure,it was scary,sometimes hungry or embarassed,ashamed...but that stuff only lasts a minute or two.The confidence I used to have that the world would provide kept me at the core of my soul....pretending to be civilized is probably been the biggest TMS factory I've ever had.
But,after realizing what was causing the TMS,I still made conscious 'choices' if there is really such a thing.
Either Love is real and can overcome base wants and needs,or were all rats in a skinner box,and someone's having a good laugh up there,somewhere.
So Albert,you're right...I did give the old childish,freudian,stimulus/response monster new life.By believing he was soon to be reincarnated.
I wonder which one of us is real?
pieces
Baseball65 |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2005 : 13:57:06
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The "one" who experiences each incarnation is real. This "one" wants a sense of identity though. It needs to be particular when it choses to identify with something. Or are we nothing more than biocomputers ("synapse") with very little choice?
[quote]Originally posted by Baseball65
So Albert,you're right...I did give the old childish,freudian,stimulus/response monster new life.By believing he was soon to be reincarnated.
I wonder which one of us is real?
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2005 : 16:29:20
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Hi Albert.
But isn't that why we get TMS and other things....cuz there's too many of 'us' in here...the narcissist,the hedonist,the moralist,the perfectionist,the anarchist and the conservative??
I don't think I'm 'special' in any sort of way,but from talking to other people I sometimes get the feeling that I've swept a broader path of the available experience than some of my friends,albeit by virtue of selfishness(if there's any virtue there)
I KNOW I love my wife and passionately...probably why we fight so bitterly.But there are parts of me that wants NO attachment to the opposite sex AT ALL other than regular interaction(friends,work,on the street)...when I was a 'self-will-run-riot' I still had a strict moral code...I never slept with a lot of people,though I might lead someone to believe as much if it meant a meal.I thought that females might disempower me....and sometimes I think that was right.Sometimes I feel like Delilah's cut my hair,and that's what made all my back pain in the first place.
My first TMS attack ever was at age 6 when my Mom was leaving me alone to go on a long trip(Freud/Oedipus)...My father had just died.
I don't have fantasies about leaving my wife and finding another woman....I have fantasies about leaving my wife and getting spiritually cleansed and running away from the mold.I would have made a good Dominican Friar,except for the fascination with trouble.
Like Tom Sawyer with TMS.....don't want to live indoors,bathe or speak civilly.
too many people in here.
Baseball65 |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2005 : 17:37:39
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| I'd say it's true that our interests and needs in life sometimes contradict each other, and therefore we get inner conflict. When we have to chose one thing over another, we do ourselves a favor when we let go of the not chosen thing as best as we can. Life is easy man.:) |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2005 : 17:38:46
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That :) was supposed to be a 
quote:
Originally posted by Albert
I'd say it's true that our interests and needs in life sometimes contradict each other, and therefore we get inner conflict. When we have to chose one thing over another, we do ourselves a favor when we let go of the not chosen thing as best as we can. Life is easy man.:)
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2005 : 07:29:36
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| Baseball -- I wish you the best with your dilemma. Your contributions to the forum have been extremely helpful to me -- and always interesting reading....Keep posting. |
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n/a
374 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2005 : 09:44:00
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Baseball, your posts always make interesting and often very helpful reading. You describe something very fundamental here - conflict within yourself resulting in a relapse, albeit a minor one.
Freedom is indeed, a very attractive prospect, but balancing it with our other needs and responsibilities is no easy task.
The thing is, you've lived a kind of freedom that most of us have not - so you know that you can do it and that you like it, so the dilemma you find yourself in now is doubly hard for you.
One thing is for sure - recovery from TMS - or getting it under ones thumb, where it belongs, brings things into sharp focus, no retreating into a back pain funk anymore.
Best wishes with your dilemma.
Anne
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2005 : 10:11:31
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Hi Anne,Albert,Fox.
Albert..I figured you were kidding.However,like most jokes,it had a kernel of truth.It is US that makes life hard.I went to a LaMaze(spling?) class with my wife before our first son was born.The teacher pointed out that animals rarely have protracted or painful births,because they don't expect or anticipate pain
But as Anne just said,I think having lived on the furthest most fringe of society and than trying to be normal(and reminiscing about lost freedoms) had a lot to do with this little episode...which seems to be gone.
It's great to have this forum and have people reflect your own ideas back at you as a sort of therapy.
Right after posting yesterday,my wife came home and asked how my day went.I told her I was irked by a TMS twinge and she allowed me a quick rant about how frustrated I was with NOT leaving her,having to be a housewife and NOT being an outlaw.She was actually understanding and even helped illuminate some of the stuff I might have overlooked.
...and it just sort of went away.However,I'm going to keep digging here.It usually helps KEEP TMS away by doing a good thorough cleaning after it's gone....sort of quantifying it so you can shoo it away like a fly if that situation arises again.All told I probably had symptoms for about 5-6 hours(a couple of hours for three days....not bad for a 'cripple'),none the less it was still important as a reminder that there is stuff in there that is still trying to do battle.
Back to the books.
Thanx for all your insights
peace(again)
Baseball65 |
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Allan
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2005 : 19:22:16
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I agree with Albert.
Could it be that we are putting too much emphasis on Freud?
Allan.
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2005 : 10:00:16
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Hi Allan.
Well ,although it's easy to shoot holes in his bow,Freud was right at least in the Pathological/Diagnostical sort of way.He really never offered any solutions,but his observations seem spot on.
Einstein wrote the cosmological constant(error) but No one has chucked relativity theory, and Neils Bohr couldn't account for the seemingly random implications of quantum mechanics(error),but nobody's chucked quantum physics.....so why does everybody chuck Freud out the window because he made a mistake or two?
None the less,I don't sit around reading and absorbing his ideas,but when they are flagrantly in your face all the time(like my wifes issues with her father projected onto me) it's hard NOT to bring them up.
Not unlike Sarno,he postulated a system in action,theorized what the implications of the system would generate and logged observational data to corroborate or repudiate his theory.
Why do girls wear make-up...because it's fun wasting an hour a day staring in the mirror? I think not.Every girl I've ever met who is a "runway model" has some significant issue with being rejected by her Father.Likewise,yet subtley different,every 'tough' guy I've ever met was rejected by his Mother.....the two paradigms of Human sexual roles both obviously guided and guarded by the rules of reaction that Freud laid down.
When I was in my 'club' as a youth,I noticed something(I was pretty intuitive back then)..Everybody in the 'club' had NO father.Easy diagnosis,fundamnetal gang mentality..but.
When we had a particularly hairy 'job' to get done,the enthusiasm for participation was direcly linked to the amount of attention/love that guy received from his Mother.My mom was barely aware I was alive,hence ,I was deeply involved in the heart of each caper.My best friend,on the other hand ,had a very loving Mother,and though part of the 'club' would have nothing to do with the darker,inner workings of the 'Family'.
If that isn't guided by Freudian principles,I don't know what you could call it.Attention seeking is directly related to the Mother/son relationship and inversely Father/daughter,though it might manifest itself in different avenues of Human experience.
Anyways,,,,it's so easy to rip Freud apart,but I see it all over.Until someone shows me another system that explains human action as well,I'll stay with the Austrian.I know modern psychologists write reems of papers shredding him,but than again,we all know how successful these modern drug-pusher....I mean..uh...Psycholgists have been doing
peace
Baseball65 |
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2005 : 22:30:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert
According to the Freud way of thinking, somebody such as Mother Theressa or Albert Schweitzer had no choice but to have a bunch of inner rage boiling within them, because their childish selves weren't being allowed to have their way as they lived their lives in a selfless way. I don't believe that this is true. If within their hearts they felt really good about their selfless way of life, then definitely they didn't have to be effected by childish tendencies....
With the above in mind, perhaps you have the option of telling the childish part of your mind: "Forget it marky, I'm going to be responsible and take care of my family, and feel good about doing so. Therefore, I'm finished with you."
My guess is that you've had a number of experiences in your life where you let go of stubborn, childish, and unhelpfull patterns of thought. I believe it is a mistake to believe that they are still lurking around in some manner that can cause you a problem. They could only do so if you were in some way still giving them life. For instance, by believing in them.
I have to disagree with this. I know from my own experience that I get in trouble when I don't believe in my childish emotions. That's an invitation for TMS or its equivalents to repress the emotions, so I can continue to believe that they don't exist or that I have moved beyond them.
As far as Mother Teresa is concerned, I've read that she went to confession every week. I would think that some of what she confessed was childish emotions. This sounds much more plausible to me than saying that she made a one-time choice to be unselfish and never had any significant inner conflict about it.
I'm certainly not saying that people should give in and act on all their childish emotions. But when people make unselfish choices, they need to be aware of the inner conflict that could result and be prepared to deal with it. It sounds like that's what Baseball has been doing here.
Jim |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 10:50:37
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Denying childish emotions and not buying into them are two different things. If you deny that they are there when they are, they can cause you problems. But this doesn't mean that we can't get rid of them or have to buy into them. It helps if we believe that we have a choice. Say there is some guy who wants to hit his wife. He says he does so because the childish part of him wants to do so and he isn't good at suppressing it. Are we to believe that every man who doesn't hit his wife doesn't do so because he suppresses the childish part of his mind? I don't buy this for a second. For many men it isn't a matter of anger management, but rather a matter of having too much love and respect present within their heart, to allow a negative tendency such as wanting to hit their wife to take root within their minds.
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 22:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert
Say there is some guy who wants to hit his wife. He says he does so because the childish part of him wants to do so and he isn't good at suppressing it. Are we to believe that every man who doesn't hit his wife doesn't do so because he suppresses the childish part of his mind?
What do you mean by "wants to"? Is this a conscious or unconscious want? If it's conscious, there may be no need for repression. Dr. Sarno's clinical experience is that many patients don't have to act on, or even feel the emotion; all the patient has to do is to become intellectually aware of its existence and the need for repression goes way down or away completely.
In addition, you're assuming that the guy wants to hit his wife because he is angry at his wife. He may want to hit her because he is unconsciously angry at his boss, and his unconscious mind decides that it's safer to vent the anger on his wife than on his boss. In this case, he could hit his wife and still be seething with anger. Plus, he may have added some guilt to his list of unconscious emotions that need to be repressed.
There are numerous reasons why hitting someone is a bad way to deal with repressed emotions. This is why, in my previous post, I said, "I'm certainly not saying that people should give in and act on all their childish emotions. But when people make unselfish choices, they need to be aware of the inner conflict that could result and be prepared to deal with it."
Jim
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 10:05:15
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There are an infinite number of psychological possibilities. That doesn't mean that we have to buy into each and every one of them and then suppress them.
Suppression isn't the only way to deal with thought patterns we don't want to identify with. Sometimes it is simply a matter of seeing that they aren't something that we want to give life to. The parent vs. child perspective sort of implies that we don't have a choice. Obviously I don't agree with this.
I'm certain that there are a lot of men who get mad at their boss without feeling the need to take it out on their wives or somebody else. There are other options. These options might be hard to see if a person insists on believing that he or she is a biocomputer "that" (not "who') doesn't have any choices.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim1999
quote:
Originally posted by Albert
Say there is some guy who wants to hit his wife. He says he does so because the childish part of him wants to do so and he isn't good at suppressing it. Are we to believe that every man who doesn't hit his wife doesn't do so because he suppresses the childish part of his mind?
What do you mean by "wants to"? Is this a conscious or unconscious want? If it's conscious, there may be no need for repression. Dr. Sarno's clinical experience is that many patients don't have to act on, or even feel the emotion; all the patient has to do is to become intellectually aware of its existence and the need for repression goes way down or away completely.
In addition, you're assuming that the guy wants to hit his wife because he is angry at his wife. He may want to hit her because he is unconsciously angry at his boss, and his unconscious mind decides that it's safer to vent the anger on his wife than on his boss. In this case, he could hit his wife and still be seething with anger. Plus, he may have added some guilt to his list of unconscious emotions that need to be repressed.
There are numerous reasons why hitting someone is a bad way to deal with repressed emotions. This is why, in my previous post, I said, "I'm certainly not saying that people should give in and act on all their childish emotions. But when people make unselfish choices, they need to be aware of the inner conflict that could result and be prepared to deal with it."
Jim
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2005 : 22:51:14
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I would have posted this a week ago, but my hard drive crashed.
quote:
Originally posted by Albert
There are an infinite number of psychological possibilities. That doesn't mean that we have to buy into each and every one of them and then suppress them.
Do you honestly believe that I want people to buy into and suppress an infinite number of possibilities?
quote:
Originally posted by Albert
There are other options. These options might be hard to see if a person insists on believing that he or she is a biocomputer "that" (not "who') doesn't have any choices.
I have tried hard to understand your position and not distort it in my postings. I feel strongly that you have not shown me the same courtesy.
Jim
P.S. In your postings, I sense a certain desparation to claim that you can overcome certain emotions. I can't help but wonder whether this is part of the strategy that your unconscious mind uses to keep emotions repressed. |
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Minor relapses....low back pain.
