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vikki
95 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2005 : 12:22:55
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Hi all,
After reading two of Sarno's books and listening to Schechter's DVDs, I am still a bit confused about what exactly it takes to recover. In some cases it seems that all it takes is knowing that the pain is caused by TMS. In other cases, this isn't enough and one has to actually IDENTIFY the repressed emotion that's causing the pain. In yet other cases, it seems that one has to not only identify but also remove the source of emotional stress -- Sarno gives several case studies in which the patient couldn't recover from the pain because they didn't remove themselves from the stressful situation (even though they'd identified it).
In your experience, what does it take?
Thanks!
Vikki |
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Allan
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 12:51:56
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vikki.
Dave has given you some excellent advice. Accept the fact that it is TMS.
All indications point to your having TMS pain especially now that it is moving around. Go back and read Dr. Sarno's recommended treatment procedures beginning on page 70.
By the way, the so called "instant recoveries" are extremely rare. Most take six months to a year based on the postings on the forum.
Be of good cheer. You are on your way.
Allan.
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vikki
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 14:32:12
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Hi Allan,
I'm working at the acceptance part. It's not easy when you're as skeptical and impatient as I am. I have been trying to *behave* as if I truly believe it (canceled PT appointments, medical treatments, etc.) but it's tough to stop *thoughts* that it might be something structural.
Vikki |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 14:59:32
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Vikki,
I too would like to know. I wish people that have had success would be a little more specific instead of repeating accept you have tms,stop treating the physical, go back to your normal routine. I think many people cant get by step one, myself included.
I would like to know exactly how people experienced this. I always felt that emotions and fear etc. had a profound effect on your health, but do people actually read these books,come to a startling conclusion and the pain starts to go away? Did yelling at the subconscious do it? Especially those with severe pain, its not as surprizing that those with less serious back problems overcame it.
Did someone read the books, think about it and realize that their mother used to demand perfection from them, and bingo, the pain gets weaker?
If you are reading this, and have healed from tms, tell us, be as specific as you can, how the change happened. Many of the stories in the books and on video, do happen quickly, and a few here seem to also, but as others point out, many are still in pain and trying to ignore it.
Tell us how your transformation took place, what you realized, what happened physically and so on. Vikki, myself and many others would be very greatful.
And please, dont say read the books, i have, over and over, tell us what happened to you.
Thank You. |
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vikki
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 16:19:29
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Hi Aorta,
I understand your frustration, and frankly, I'm annoyed with Sarno for emphasizing the instant cures and saying that most people recover in 2-6 weeks. Dr. Schechter told me that it's usually a few months, at least. I also read some of your earlier posts, and I feel for you. I also have nerve pain in my arms and legs, and I know it's hard to deal with. I really identified with Fred Amir's story (have you read his book?) -- the guy had pain everywhere, just as you and I do.
It really helped me to see Dr. Schechter. He gave me a list of 12 steps for treatment. He and I agree that I'm at step 4: accepting the diagnosis intellectually. Step 5 is what I struggle with: accepting the diagnosis with one's gut, or heart.
You mentioned in an earlier post that you hadn't had MRIs and other tests. You might want to do this. For me, Dr. Schechter insisted on seeing spinal and brain MRI results to make sure I didn't have a serious neurological problem. Just knowing there's nothing seriously wrong with you can make you feel better and empower you to be more active. (It did for me.)
But I've also come to realize that it's never going to be possible to completely rule out serious diseases. I've had the Lyme test too, and I know there are false negatives. Also, when I had an EMG, they only tested 4 muscles. But I think to myself: either I have some rare, serious disease that doesn't show up in any test, or I have the much more common TMS. Which is more likely?
Most of my rage/fear currently also comes from my pain -- for example, will I be permanently disabled? When I write in my journal, I try to think about OTHER things that have bugged me in the past, things that the pain has caused me to stop thinking about.
Anyway, I'm really trying to take the leap of faith here.
Good luck ... |
Edited by - vikki on 07/01/2005 16:23:33 |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 17:33:25
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Hi Vikki,
Can you please post Dr. Schechter's 12 steps for the benefit of the board? Thanks
No one can say how long it will take to recover as that is an individual matter, but the instant recovery stories are a only few, but still inspiring nontheless- but at the same time some how enraging as it does not happen to you like it happened to them.
Vikki, you have had many more tests than I have and I am convinced I have TMS because the problem is so wide spread and before reading Sarno's book I was in bed not walking at all. Accept the diagnosis, read the phsycology and treatment chapters in Dr. Sarno's book, try to identify yourself in his words, go through the workbook one day at a time and don't try to obsess all the time as it will hinder your progress. Take this from someone who has not recovered but who is staking his whole life on this diagnosis. |
Edited by - n/a on 07/01/2005 17:52:55 |
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Allan
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 19:52:16
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Here is what worked for me.
Fred Amir wrote a book, "Rapid Recovery from Back and Neck Pain."
Fred suggests setting short and long-term goals relative to overcoming the pain. This is a workable and measurable suggestion that helped me greatly.
The combination of sciatica pain in both my legs and extreme weakness in both legs limited my movements. .
I could not climb stairs without great pain and difficulty. I had to get a good hold on the banister and slowly and painfully get up the stairs.
My short-term goal:
Climb two stairs without holding on to the banister.
My long-term goal:
Climb up all of the 13 stairs without holding on and eventually climb them all two at a time.
I accomplished both goals.
I can vividly remember the first time that I climbed those first two stairs without holding on. It was exhilarating. I knew that it was just a matter of time when I would climb them all and then two at a time! I just knew it! If I could climb two, I could climb 100 or more.
Surprisingly, it took me a relative long time to climb those first two stairs. But, climbing three, four and five went rather quickly and then climbing them all and then two at a time quicker still.
What goals can you set? I am sure that you can figure out some. The point is to challenge the pain in some measurable way. If it is TMS pain, it will back away. Dr. Sarno is correct, "its cover has been blown." It will give up. In my case, it gave up for five years. Not a trace of pain.
I hope this helps.
Allan.
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 22:26:28
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Vikki,
Thanks for writing, and boy do we sound alike. I tried to look for your symptom history but i didnt see it.
Im not mad at Dr. Sarno at all, he seems like the real thing, sincere, almost awkward at all this notariety. I believe he did honestly discover something in his years of practice, whether it applies to me i dont know.Certainly a history of stress, worry and fear.I have to wonder though, those that are so startled at seeing themselves in the books, i mean most people have issues of stress,
sadness, family problems.So add a chronic pain syndrome and knowing they are like this, of course they are going to identify.
You are right about the mris, unfortunately,my problem started i think, with the intestinal problem, then neuropathy, followed by panic and depression. Since it was first i did quite a bit of testing on the g.i. part, scopes galore and since there was disgusting physical evidence, i was sure something would come up, but it didnt. Right now im too much of a nut case to do the mri's.
If they took 10 minutes, no problem. But just laying still for a half hour a segment would drive me crazy literally.
Then if it shows a spinal problem, then what? I would be horrified to think of spinal surgery and i am trying anything like physical therapy or alternative already. Each test makes me more anxious, the more anxious, the harder it is for me to recover.Im a coward you see.Ive managed to avoid most doctors and hospitals and testing scares the daylights out of me.Ive always tried to manage with natural methods, and up till now ive succeeded. But one year ago i was hit with these terrible things that threatened everything important to me.
Right now, i have trouble accepting any diagnosis. As you say, the blood tests are not reliable, there are so many directions to go.
Actually the only thing i would accept as a diagnosis right now, is improvement. Words, and tests mean very little. I need to get better.Even if one condition would improve.
I relate to what you are saying about your present thoughts and obsessions with your symptoms, the pain fear cycle. Actually i think it does have something to do with my condition. A part of it anyway.
From the begining nothing helped. As this continued, i became more and more afraid. Medications i have taken for years no longer seemed to work, or made me ill. No matter what i tried it failed. Im very impatient, and want to regain my health, my life. Im desperate for that. Its always topmost on my mind so that everything else suffers.
Perhaps if i got involved with something so intensely for long enough to distract me, i might improve, im not sure. All of this doesnt really fit in with the classic tms picture, but a part of it im sure is related.
I cant really take a leap of faith into anything unless i really believe and it takes quite a bit to convince me. I certainly dont have faith in medical doctors, they never helped me with the slightest problems.
Anyway, i wish you the best. I wish that your mind is able to overcome your physical symptoms, in any manner whatsoever.
Thanks again.
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 22:30:41
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quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
Take this from someone who has not recovered but who is staking his whole life on this diagnosis.
Peter, i wish you the best with this, and a speedy recovery. |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 22:35:09
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Allan,
Thanks for your post. I wish you the best with this. From what you say, it seems you are making progress.
Unfortunately, my problems never really handicapped me from physical things. I could still lift weights, climb stairs etc. But if i do too much, my pain would be worse later or the next day. This makes it hard to chart or see improvement.
I can imagine how terrible it is to not be able to get up the stairs.
It does sound like you are improving, which is great.
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2005 : 22:56:55
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Vikki and Aorta,
I recovered from a severe case of TMS in 1999. It took me 5 or 6 weeks. I'm in the second category Vikki mentioned: those who had to identify the repressed emotion, but not remove themselves from the stressful situation.
In the early days of my recovery, the two most important things were
* reading Sarno's books repeatedly, and
* journaling.
I wanted to make sure that things were going well with these before making much of an effort to re-introduce physical activity or abandon physical treatments. Dr. Sarno does write about patients experiencing setbacks if they try changing too quickly. Also, while "talking to my brain" did play some role, I doubt that it would have been effective without journaling. My unconscious mind needed the pain as a distraction until I dealt with the emotions.
Since you have already been reading Sarno's books and seem familiar with his ideas, I will focus the rest of my posting on journaling. Sarno's books are not very detailed on this subject, so I suppose different people will approach it differently. Two newer books ("Back Sense" and especially "Freedom from Fibromyalgia") have more information on journaling, but these books were not available at the time of my recovery.
I began by focusing on issues in my life at or somewhat before the time that my pain became bad. It seemed to make sense that something must have happened to increase my repressed emotions and trigger the pain. Later, I dealt with issues from before and after the onset of TMS. Adulthood issues were more important to my recovery than childhood issues.
From what Sarno says, some patients have one major issue, like being abused as a child, while other patients have a lot of little issues. In my case, I ended up dealing with lots of little issues during my recovery. I didn't have to write about every possible issue, just enough to dramatically reduce the amount of repression needed. Still, this became frustrating at times, not knowing how many more issues I'd have to deal with before I'll get better.
I often focused on issues related to being an overachiever, a perfectionist and a goodist (conscientious and nice). These personality traits really made me relate to and see myself in Sarno's books.
In my situation, I found that many of my issues related to feelings of failure: failing to win a game, failing to get the highest test score or failing to help someone. For example, I wrote about a former co-worker who was edged out and laid off, even though he had good ideas and was well-liked. I felt like his problems were my fault. ("Why couldn't I have done more to help him?") It was irrational to think that I could have done much more, which must be why I repressed the emotions.
When I started journaling, I wrote lists of things which could be bothering me. Over time, I realized that my lists weren't detailed or expressive enough. What I ended up doing was writing short stories of what had happened. It was important to emphasize the subjective, emotional, selfish side of the story. I sometimes found myself wanting to be more fair or objective, but this really undermined the purpose: to deal with the emotions.
I hope that some of this information will be helpful to you and others struggling with TMS. Keep us posted on how you're doing.
Jim |
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2005 : 23:04:36
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I did have an almost instant cure to my seven year history of severe low back pain. It was unbelievable. At the time I discovered Sarno, I had also developed two other chronic pains (hip pain and neuroma (foot)) which also went away quite quickly, about 2 weeks. But I have to say that months later, one of these 3 would occasionally "trigger" a little, and then I'd beat it back down like a small brush fire. As a runner, I have plenty of subsconscious suggestions about possible injuries, plenty for the TMS in me to try out. The only one that was really hard to get rid of was the one I thought might not be TMS. I was so scared I had a stress fracture. But training in horrible pain and then running my marathon totally pain free made me see my brain was up to something, and then I was able to beat it.
For me, the key to recovery is
-think psychologically and do not let your brain fool you into the physical diagnosis. It is b.s. Always look for evidence of the b.s. to help you shift your thinking Eg- increased pain with stressful situations, pain moving around (first one side, then the other), pain "going away" briefly when you're having fun, etc. Just the fact that something is chronic is a huge red flag, and no, you didn't "reinjure" it by being careless. Our bodies heal well and they heal fast, otherwise our species never would have made it this far. Chant this mantra: chronic equals b.s.
-when you talk to your brain and get mad, try to get mad at the psychological cause (childhood trauma, etc.) more than at the pain. Getting mad at the pain seemed to increase my attention to pain, increasing the effectiveness of the TMS and empowering it.
-get some psychological help for issues that are triggering your pain. If you like self help books, try The Three Minute Therapy.
-try to kill off your inner perfectionist, because that is the part of you generating the rage. It's ok for your world to be imperfect; life is basically good despite those imperfections. In the words of fictional character Olivia Joules (a Helen Fielding novel) "Nothing is ever as bad or as good as it seems."
Good luck! |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 07:53:46
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crk-thanks for your post. i am interested in hearing from runnes about their "injuries". if you've read my posts, you'll see that i was an avid runner; haven't run since NOVEMBER because of groin/abdomen pain. had surgery in to fix the groin/abdomen. i am far worse than i was before the surgery. this has set off a whole new set of fears - did the surgery cause something internal to go wrong that can't be fixed; resting, surgery hasn't worked, what now; did the surgeon mess up some organs, etc. etc.
someone posted that perhaps this was tms in the first place. i am not disputing htat at all. what scares me is that sometimes you read about doctors messing up your body with surgery and the body not ever being the same. those fears of debilitation are omnipresent. i have tried to do some light exercise post-surgery, PT, etc. and i am still in so much pain. i should have been up and running in 8 weeks and it is now 4 months.
i am so incredibly depressed about this whole thing and was not prepared for this outcome. |
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molomaf
119 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 08:28:23
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hsb,
Is there a way for example, an MRI, that could show that you look fine internally? If there is, than you can feel confident that the surgery didn't "mess you up". How about finding a TMS doctor and asking what kind of test to do and then bringing the findings to this TMS doctor. I think that would put your mind to rest. It seems that you are having trouble believing that you can go back to running safely even though you can accept that it was and is TMS. Maybe "physical" proof here would be helpful.
Michele |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 11:59:03
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Michele-
That is very interesting. I am going to ask the surgeon if there is an MRI or CT scan that i can get to see if he did anything internally. When i started with these pains back in October, I went the usual route - orthopaedist, PT, meds, etc. I had an MRI, x-rays, etc. They showed nothing. A dx. of sports hernia or athletic pubalgia will NOT show up on any of those tests. so the only thing a diagnostic mri or ct scan would show now would be if the doctor did anything internally.
funny, - peter said that perhaps i didn't have an injury in the first place - since nothing showed up on any test and no treatment worked. believe me i understand that alot. but i think it is the fear and accpetance like vicki is having trouble with as well. but then my tms mind will say, that is the way this "injury" presents itself - as th esurgeon said - no conservative treatment will work, surgery is the answer. well i did all the conservative stuff and had the surgery. look where it's gotten me!!! |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 20:43:08
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hsb,
Your last posting indicates that you are on your road to recovery. Congratulations!!!! You are going to be even a better person WHEN this is all over. |
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Fredarm57
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 10:22:50
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I ended up having to do all three steps, kowing AND ACCEPTING that the pain is caused by TMS, identifying the repressed emotions that were causing the pain (through psychotherapy), and finally being removed from the stressful situation. I say "being removed from" because the stressful situation was a job that I hated, but was afraid to leave. I was finally laid off, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me! Not everyone has to go through all three steps and it makes sense to work on them one step at a time. Some difficult situtations may be impossible to remove yourself from (impossible in-laws, surly teenagers, and the like) but you can minimize your contact with them (the in-laws) or try to change the way you deal with them (the teenagers).
Fred |
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 20:37:14
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HSB, you will run again! Back in 2003 I was actually kicking myself for signing up for a running camp when I had so many "injuries" that I couldn't go longer than 1 minute before I needed to walk a bit, the pain was that bad. What had I been thinking? But it was at that camp, run by Jeff Galloway, that I found Sarno. Galloway even sells Sarno's book on his website, probably because he has seen so many runners benefit from it. I was running pain free in well under a month and soon completed my first half marathon. (Am now up to 6 marathons, going strong, loving it, number 7 is this Sunday.)
I completely agree with the advice to gather medical evidence (MRI or other). The hardest part of losing the pain is coming to doubt the physical "I'm hurt" diagnosis. Look at Joan (Benoit) Samuelson, trotting off to run in the 1984 Olympic Trials just a few weeks after knee surgery, and subsequently winning the gold in the marathon. We heal. That's what our bodies do best. Good luck in your quest to uncover the TMS and give it the boot!! |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 14:15:42
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crk-
thanks. i had negative mris and xrays before the surgery. i had the surgery in hopes to be able to run again. thinking it was the last resort with the surgeon who invented the procedure. well i had the procedure and guess what - the pain is still there. the doc didn't order an mri or ct scan post surgery. he gave me a cortisone shot and anti-inflammatories and guess what - they haven't worked either!!!!
so as i have reitered a million gazillion times - it is the fear i am dealing with - what did the surgeon do to me; whatever he did-- will it debilitate me forever, will i be stuck in a chronic pain clinic, will i ever run again. that is where i'm at.
going to a tms doc with negative xrays i feel won't really help. most of you guys go with positive xrays and positive mris.
but it could be the same thing...
tbanks ck - i would sell my soul to be running again!!!!
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 16:28:13
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HSB,
Your state: "going to a tms doc with negative xrays i feel won't really help. most of you guys go with positive xrays and positive mris."
Not true, many people with TMS show nothing on a CT scan, MRI, blood test etc. I am an example of that. I had all these tests and absoutley zero shows up, except for minor arthritis on the spine and slight but nornmal degeneration which is so small that even the doctor dismissed it as the normal aging process. My doctor says I am competely healthy. But guess what? I have TMS and, I highly suspect, so do you.
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Carol
91 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 19:22:35
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hsb, what kind of surgery did you have? What did they fix, remove, etc. to try to fix the groin/abdominal pain?
I ask because I have groin and abdominal pain along with my back pain. There was no structural abnormality that the doctors could pin it on, so they said it was "referred pain" from the back pain, which is supposedly from bone spurs at L4.
It amazes me how similar or identical symptoms as blamed on so many different things.
Carol |
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What does it take to recover?
