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hsb
149 Posts |
 Posted - 06/24/2005 : 17:43:42
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i have posted before and I think I need some reinforcement these days. When I last posted I told you that I had surgery (groin/abdomen) with the "doctor who invented the procedure". He operates on all professional athletes who have groin/abdomen problems. Well I am a marathon runner and have been suffering with TMS like "injuries" for years and years. During that time I have tried every treatment available to no avail. Every "injury" eventually resolved itself. I had groin abdomen adductor issues starting in November. Did the whole route - ortho. meds, PT, rest, no running. I went to see the surgeon back in February and opted for the surgery in March. The surgery supposedly has a 95% success rate. Four weeks of rest post-op (I still had pain in my adductors), then 4 weeks PT. Went back to doc and he said i developed osteitis pubis from the surgeyr - gave me Indocin. Now 4 weeks later, and 3-1/2 months post-op i have the same pain and worse than before the surgery.
My fears now are: why did the surgery fail, is it TMS = meaning no treatment or even surgery will work, will i be in chronic pain the rest of my life; will the TMS stuff work even though i had surgery , i.e. did the surgery damage me forever; will i ever run again.
I did start exercising a couple of weeks ago because the PT didn't work, the Indocin didn't work and 3-1/2 months post-op no way i could undo the surgery. IT HURTS. it just is horrible to have the same pain and more after surgery which was my last resort. NOW WHAT?
I was wondering if anyone out there has had an issue like this. The thoughts are just horrible - what ifs, etc.
Thanks alot. |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2005 : 18:15:40
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hsb,
My fears now are: why did the surgery fail, is it TMS = meaning no treatment or even surgery will work, will i be in chronic pain the rest of my life; will the TMS stuff work even though i had surgery , i.e. did the surgery damage me forever; will i ever run again.
I remember replying to your earlier post in May. I am no doctor but the fact that you still have pain after your surgery may well mean that you have tms. Also I remember saying in my last post that somewhere in Sarno's video a patient asks him whether he could still do the tms work even though he had had surgery and Sarno said yes.
I think the only way to remove any doubts in your mind and to get correct answers to your questions is to go see a tms doctor. I think that this is important since you have had surgery. He or she may also be able to help with the pain. Do you think that it might be possible for you to do that?
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2005 : 18:21:07
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mala:
I wonder what a TMS doctor could tell me. The surgery is done. When I went through this originally, the ortho. had a name for it: athletic pubalgia. It is becoming a more fashionable diagnosis - another name is a sports hernia. I think only 2 doctors in the country perform the procedure. What could a TMS doctor tell me?
I think one thing i fear is that surgery was sort of a last resort and now where do I go except throw myself into the TMS aspect. The surgeon who performed my surgery can no longer do anything I guess. He doesn't see many failures. 3-1/2 months post=op I should be way on the road to recovery instead of regressing.
So i have many obsessive thoughts about the surgeon doing something that will cause chronic pain the rest of my life. Is running and exercising going to be detrimental. Many confusing things.
Thanks |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2005 : 18:44:16
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Well, how about the tms doctor could answer your questions better than anyone else here can? These are the question you have just asked.
Q1. is it TMS = meaning no treatment or even surgery will work,
Q2. will i be in chronic pain the rest of my life;
Q3. will the TMS stuff work even though i had surgery , i.e. did the surgery damage me forever; will i ever run again.
Also both your posts indicate that you are still thinking very much physically and not even trying to think psychologically. Most of your posts talk about surgery. You don't seem to have moved forward in the tms direction at all since your last post which I just read again. You asked exactly the same questions then as you are asking now.
So my question to you is how much tms material have you read, understood and applied so far and do you think you may have tms ?
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 03:51:42
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mala-
In response to your questions, again I am not sure what a TMS physician could do? I had been to one many years ago. The surgery I had was not your typical knee surgery or shoulder surgery. That is why I am hesitant.
I have read Dr. Sarno's books and I do see a therapist. As many of you have written here, the hardest thing is the fear = i fear i won't run again, i fear i will be in chronic pain forever, i fear the surgery caused something insde to go awry, i fear that going back to exercising will exacerbate whatever the surgeon did. I realize the answer lies within me but I have seen these very questions from various posters.
Yes i am speaking physically. I wake up in the morning and I open my eyes and there is the groin/adductor pain, worse than before the surgery. It is difficult not to think that the surgeon did something internally to me that caused things to go haywire.
Is believing in TMS sort of an easy way out to allow me to go back to exercising? Sometimes I feel that way - it is the permission I need to work out.
Thanks. |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 23:13:44
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First, if you have seen a tms doctor like you say you have then he must have been able to answer those 3 questions that you have been asking repeatedly on this board. Well what did he or she say?
Next, you haven't answered my question to you in my last post. I'll repeat it and please answer it clearly will you? Thanks.
So my question to you is how much tms material have you read, understood and applied so far and do you think you may have tms ?
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 23:26:29
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Hi HSB
Well,I don't run so I usually just read these posts without comment,BUT I did have a failed back surgery and it certainly made me no worse when I finally did the TMS mambo.I am fully recovered pain free for years,though not after the surgery.
The Human Body has amazing healing properties.Even after surgeries,regardless if they were 'necessary'(mine wasn't).I actually was in more pain AFTER my 'successful' back surgery than before.....probably due to the anxiety of not being relieved of pain("Oh no...now what's wrong??)
The Doctor who cut me was the team physician for the New York Knicks and also confidently bragged about his 95% success rate......until I didn't get better.I heard him talking into his dictaphone saying "...patient has less than 25% chance of ever returning to his previous occupation"..6 weeks after assuring me he was the best!!!!!
I wanted to punch his fat little arrogant face.
I suppose he didn't count me in his stats since it was clear that I had the "disease" of chronic pain.
So...I don't think that a failed surgery would preclude you from ever running again.It might be the proff that it IS TMS.There are a bunch of runners on the board...maybe start a new string with 'running' in title and you'll get more relevant input.
Hope that helped a little
Baseball65 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 00:22:49
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hsb,
Do what you can to lose your fears..take that leap of faith, believe in your heart that your pain is benign...
I'm no expert of course, far from it, but based on the little knowledge I do have, you've the classic TMS temperament..
I identify with you one hundred percent. I'm also a runner, and over the years I've had every single running injury known to man I think..There's just no way one human being would have all those injuries I realized...My body is just as strong as the next guy's
Therefore, had to be TMS...In just the last month or so I've sustained, and run through, three or four new or recurring "injuries." All TMS. |
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marytabby
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:54:13
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| I am a runner, and after being told about my disk herniations, scoliosis related problems, piriformus syndrome, and many others, I gave up my thoughts of ever running again. I never had surgery, just LOTS of chiros, PT's, massage, you name it I tried it for four years. I am now running pain free after just a few months of reading the books and coming here. I do still have flare-ups but they're never the ones that were blamed on running. They are just your garden variety TMS pains that try to get me. So I say start slow but get back to running again. I did walking/running to start back slow. Now I'm fully running. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 15:28:14
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thanks maryalma
i did this morning run 10 min, walk 5 min., 3 times. everything hurts, especially the abdomen and adductors where i had the surgery. but i am on my own about this now. no one is going to help me, no doctor; i have to stop seeking the cures. so i will continue this regime and see what happens. though the chronic pain fear is still very very much alive in me. |
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vikki
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 14:17:43
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Hi hsb,
I came across your posts, and I can relate. I'm a runner too. I am so worried about the "what ifs." At first, it was "what if I can never run again?" Now it's, "what if I am permanently disabled?"
But I have become convinced that the body is very efficient at healing itself -- from injuries, surgery, or whatever. I just think back to my sprained ankles, cuts and bruises, even surgery -- all healed within a matter of days or weeks. Most of the time, I didn't even have to *do* anything except take the occasional painkiller.
So why does chronic pain appear not to heal? I think Sarno is totally right here -- it must not be an injury. There's something else going on.
I am just beginning this process. I went to see Dr. Schecther. If you're near LA, I definitely recommend going to see him. He has a sports medicine background, and he can reassure you about your fear of permanent damage by surgery. He can also tell you that your problem is in fact TMS -- it does help to hear this from a doctor you trust.
And the other thing is, I never had a running injury (other than minor sprains and stuff) until I started worrying about running injuries. Suggests that a lot of this has a psychological cause ...
-Vikki |
Edited by - vikki on 07/01/2005 14:22:22 |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2005 : 16:11:33
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vicki
yes the what ifs are so so painful. what if i can't run again, what if the surgery caused chronic pain that i have to spend all my time in a pain clinic in order to live an ordinary life, etc. etc. etc.
why did i have the surgery in the first place.
one of the things that always got to me and i am sure art and al the runner could relate - how come all the runners i know heal in 6 weeks max and every time i get an "injury", it is months and months. now i have the biggest "injury" - went and had surgery and i think it failed, the pain is worse than before and i hurt so badly still. this was supposed to be surgery - back on the roads in 8 weeks like every one of his professional athletes who he treats. one reads many times about the horror stories of failed surgeries and the debilating effects they might have. THAT STICKS IN MY MIND as does PAIN CLINIC.
vicki i think i understand what you said about chronic pain - something is happening that makes it stick with you - but don't i keep thinking the surgeon messed up inside and screwed up something that i will always have pain. i am not sure how to stop those kinds of thoughts. if the doc made a mistake, is there another doc that can fix it? i know that is still focusing on the structural but don't others out there feel this way?
thanks. |
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Allan
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2005 : 16:35:07
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hsb
"What can a TMS doctor tell you"
Plenty, plus reassurance.
One of the best spinal doctors in the USA at the world famous Brigham and Woman's Hospital in Boston put my MRI up on the wall and told me that I had a severe case of spinal stenosis (the spinal cord rubbing against the verterbrae) and that I needed a lamenectomy (removal of a huge chunk of verterbrae) of S-4 and S-5 to relieve the pain thus caused.
A week later I saw a TMS doctor in Sandwich, MA. He put the very same MRI up on the wall and told me that I had a very mild case of spinal stenosis, there was no impact of the spinal cord and that my problem was a clear case of TMS.
I cancelled the surgery. Today, five years later, I am still pain free, playing golf the summer and cross country skiing.
What can a TMS doctor tell you? Plenty.
Most people can recover without seeing a TMS doctor. In my case, this was also true but what a great reassurance that it was TMS and not structural.
Allan. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2005 : 17:28:46
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alan-
i am in not trying to be argumentative in any way.
before i had my "sports hernia" surgery i went through all the conservative treatment, the PT, the meds, no running. sports hernia or athletic pubalgia will not show up on an x-ray, nor an mri as did mine. i went to a gyno as well and that showed nothing. this type of groin/adductor pain is hard to dx because there are alot of muscles, etc. in the area. the leading dr. who developed the surgery has performed it on all top level athletes in all sports who have groin/abdominal issues. OF COURSE THEY ALL DO WELL POST SURGERY.
i opted for the surgery because i wanted to run and be pain free. the thing that i am hesitant about a tms doc is that the don't have surgical expericence in this type of thing and i wonder if the would be able to go up against the developer of a procedure. can an internist know about a complicated procedure?
believe me i know there is merit to this tms stuff -- the surgery didn't work, nor did any treatments, nor has rest. so it is not that i am not a believer, it is that i'm not 100% there yet. i still have the typical questions - you guys call it fear - what if i don't get better, what if the surgeon messed me up forever, why did i consent to this procedure, will my life be one of debilitating pains.
the pain has definitely gotten worse post-op. what was supposed to be an 8 week recovery is now 4 months and i am worse off. i decided to do a little walking and swimming. for some reason the abdominal pain doesn't seem like it is coming from exercise but from something that the doc did.
i have yet reached the point where i have stopped thinking mayo clinic, another surgeon, johns hopkins or something like that.
the surgeon's explanation --- inflammation -- osteitis pubis as a result of surgery. damn it inflammation would be gone by now.
i know emotionally ALL I WANT TO DO IS RUN and that could probably be the crux of this whole thing. going for unwanted surgery, treatments to get to that end. more to come......
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EileenTM
92 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2005 : 17:52:48
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| Last year I had major abdominal surgery for removal of a benign ovarian cyst that weighed 4lbs and was the size of a small watermelon. I did have post surgical pain for about 2 months which is normal. But by the time everything healed at around 3 months, all the pain was completely gone. Nothing about that bothers me at all now. It is like I never had surgery. Even the scar is starting to fade and it was a big one, about 7 inches long. However my low back still bothers me from time to time. Especially when I play golf. To me that is clearly TMS. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2005 : 18:16:18
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| eileen-good for you that you recovered. clearly in my case - 4 months post op with worse pain, something is amiss, be it physical or mental/emotional. i expected to be hunky dory 8 weeks post op,12 weeks max. pretty upsetting not to be there. |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2005 : 18:38:03
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My God hsb, I never seen a more classic case of what appears to be TMS on this board than yours. All of your posts have TMS written all over them. I expect that you will have a full reovery - after seeing a TMS doctor and accepting the diagnosis - in no time.
One thing that Dr. Sarno firmly believes in - and so do I- is that the body has a remarkable ability to heal itself. In fact the real the doctor is the one within you. That inner doctor does not have an MD, but it is source of your restoration to full health. Just read Norman Cousin's books "Anatomy Of An Illness" and "Head First," and anything by Dr. Bernie Seigal. You will defeat this. You will get better and you will feel the fresh air in your face again as you once again run freely without any pain.
A fellow human-being recovering from TMS. |
Edited by - n/a on 07/02/2005 18:51:50 |
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pault
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2005 : 16:59:26
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| HSB Did you ask the Surgeon if running would aggrivate what you have now? If the surgery did not fix the problem,even with the great record of success,does that tell you that it might not have been the problem in the first place? Makes it sound like tms may have been the problem from the start.If the Doctor says you can run,apply the tms techniques and go for it .Read,Read Read. good luck , Paul. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 07:47:07
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i think the surgeon is at his wit's end. i don't think he sees many "failures". though there must be some. and he is a typical doctor - you must have inflammation now. get a cortisone shot, take anti-inflammatories.
i walked for an hour this morning and it just hurts terribly. has anybody on this board ever gone to the mayo clinic to get a slew of different doctors to look atyour cases? i can't help but think that the doc did something to make matters worse.
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 10:46:19
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quote:
i can't help but think that the doc did something to make matters worse.
That is an interesting assumption on your part,(and a typical responce of someone with TMS) but even if there was some kind of "damage" due to surgery, the body heals itself over time. (The femur, as Dr. Sarno mentions in his book, the largest bone in the body heals within six weeks if broken) I will repeat it again, the body heals itself over time, the body heals itself over time, the body heals itself over time. If there is no cessation of pain (despite no disease or other structural problems) after a number of weeks or months then you have to ask the question what is going on because, as I stated, the body heals itself of such injuries. Bodies have been doing this since the very beginning. This is an established fact of medicine. You can ask any doctor or read any medical book. Doctors have never healed one person in the history of medicine. The doctor is inside you, and MDs know this but keep it hush hush. That is why they scratch their heads when the pain does not decrease and attribute the pain to "injury" of some sort or another (real scientific reasoning don't you think- don't be fooled by thw white lab coats). What they are in fact witnessing is TMS but since they will not accept that diagnosis - being Cartesians - they will continue to grope in the dark filling you with pills and other usless therapies. They are stuck on the physical when the ultimate source of the pain is deep in the emotions. Sadly, the pain will continue because the source of it is not being dealt with. |
Edited by - n/a on 07/04/2005 14:30:57 |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 12:44:36
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quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
.... The doctor is inside you, and MDs know this but keep it hush hush. That is why they scratch their heads when the pain does not decrease and attribute the pain to "injury" of some sort or another (real scientific reasoning don't you think- don't be fooled by thw white lab coats). What they are in fact witnessing is TMS but since they will not accept that diagnosis.... They are stuck on the physical when the ultimate source of the pain is deep in the emotions. Sadly, the pain will continue because the source of it is not being dealt with.
Now there's an interesting concept that has also been mentioned in previous forum postings. Maybe an unintentional side effect of the burgeoning medical profession is to foster [TMS-related] disability. Being stuck on the psychological would not be very good for business.
Dr. Sarno mentions in his books that the TMS epidemic had taken a turn for the worse during the last 30 years. He asks the question how could the spine have de-evolved so much in such a short period of time to cause all this trouble after millions of years of human evolution? Well, maybe its only partially the fact that the population is more stressed in today's world, the other part of the problem is the medical profession has no motivation to solve the real problem. They are in denial of the pain just like their patients.
Take care, -Stryder |
Edited by - Stryder on 07/05/2005 12:51:51 |
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what to do now
