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skywalkerdude
USA
12 Posts |
 Posted - 07/06/2004 : 14:43:45
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I have posted here a few times regarding pelvic pain/prostatitis. AustinGary mentioned that he had tight pelvic muscles. Gary what type of exercises did you do and from where? I have noticed gradual improvement in my symptoms over the past 2 weeks. I purchased the mind-body workbook and have been completing it. My frequent urinary problems have decreased almost back to normal and the burning pain that I felt down in my pelvis has decreased. It's like the "pain" has stopped or decreased but the muscles are still tight. The tight muscles are what's leading to some sexual dysfunction, etc. I believe that Sarno's methods have decreased the pain but will it eventually lead to a relaxation in the pelvic area???
Mark
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Suzanne
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 16:52:59
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Mark,
This isn't in reply to what you asked Gary, but I wanted to note to you that while browsing Amazon.com last night and looking at numerous types of books and other things (not just TMS books), I decided to read the reviews for Fred Amir's book, and the one review that reinforced my positive hope for recovery from this pelvic pain and the muscle spasms we both have was the review from April 26, 2004, a man with the same symptoms and diagnoses we've gotten (well, you, I've of course not gotten the prostatitis one, LOL).
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966982614/ref=ord_cart_shr/103-6127743-4883841?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER then scroll down a bit. (a Reader from Spain)
Just one more reason to keep moving ahead and not give up—another person with pelvic dysfunctions who was helped by Dr. Sarno's theories and methods! I've never read Fred Amir's book myself. Did you?
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 17:45:47
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AustinGary mentioned that he had tight pelvic muscles. Gary what type of exercises did you do and from where?
The kind of tightness I was talking about was muscular, holding the pelvis rigid, nothing to do with prostatitis or anything like that.
First, a physical therapy person pointed it out to me and I began to just work on being conscious of how I was standing and walking, holding my pelvis tight. After awhile, I learned to let it go. I would pull myself up on an imaginary string that went through the top of my head and then relax down along it. With knees bent a little and mid-body all loosey-goosey, I would walk around like Groucho Marx, just to get the feel of having that area relaxed.
Later, I ran onto this same topic as discussed by the exercise therapist Pete Egoscue. He strongly suggests that people relax their abs, says that most of us have learned to keep them tense all the time. I find that when I relax my abs, that pretty much takes care of relaxing my whole mid-section. I do the little set of daily morning exercises from the back of his book, "Pain Free". They made a strong difference, in just a week or two.
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skywalkerdude
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 18:22:48
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Yes, I have almost finished Fred's book. I have noticed at times that when I walk I keep my abs very tight to hold my stomach in. This probably leads to the very tense pelvic muscles. I have started trying to relax these muscles and can consciously do so - like when I'm walking in the grocery store which can be stressful for me. Now whenever I get "stressed" I can feel those pelvic muscles pull in tight and then I get this burning pain down in the prostate/rectum area. Those muscles are really tight and can send some intense pain.
Mark |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 11:00:04
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It has been my experience that as soon as I start focusing on my posture/holding muscles not holding muscles - I am feeding into the TMS. I have been reading the board over the last few days and see a very strong thread happening with such a focus on the physical - I really believe THIS IS EXACTLY THE WRONG WAY TO GO ABOUT IT.
I feel very passionate about this.
My story is I have been in pain over the last ten years - seeing countless therapists, chirpractors - alexander technique - my pain has been all over my upper back muscles (with knots all over) and excruciating sciatic pain down my left and right leg and buttock - last December I became totally incapicatated and was living on steroid injections just to be able to walk. I had loads of MRIs covering the whole spine and even gastronenterolgist tests like colonoscopies - all clear accept for a small herniated disc. I saw Sarno 3 months ago and went to a lecture and read and reread his book. I have started working with a therapist just to get further into my emotional work - I have no back pain at all. I do any exercise I want - i couldn't even walk for longer than 8 minutes 3 months ago. I now do aerobics, yoga, run - I get muscle soreness but that is normal.
What did I do? The most important thing was I accepted totally that there is nothing wrong with me - no doubt, no questions and I decided to slowly start exercising, wearing high heels and doing whatever I wanted. I have experienced some worsening constipation problems - but even that is going now as I am applying the Sarno principal.
I cannot stress enough - if you have TMS - it is your thinking that has to change - do not feed into people here talking on and on about the physical structural problems IT WILL NOT HELP.
I have a huge problem with you Gary - as this is all you do and I know it is not helping anyone. I know this is a place that supports freedom of speech and opinion but with the greatest respect you are simply hindering other people's progress with this constant discussion of physical stretches etc - that is feeding into TMS - I know I've done it. I am all for exercise as I work out with a trainer now and incorporate that as part of my life.
These are just my thoughts and observations - I so want everyone to be out of pain as it is truly wonderful. Sarno's methods work - I am an extreme example of it. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 14:09:42
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| I totally agree with you Suz, thank you for the post. I too believe we need to get back to the TMS aspect. After all, isn't that why we are here. |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 14:33:55
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Yes - 2 scoops - I believe that is what this forum is about. I would like to help those people who have TMS to get rid of their pain. All I can do is emphasize the theory and tell my story.
I know that people like Gary say that it is healthy to question and not just blindly accept the TMS theory - but actually IT IS NOT HEALTHY AT ALL FOR PEOPLE WITH TMS. It is harmful - shame on you Gary. You may enjoy leisurely debating and hypothesizing on the physical aspect of pain - but it is incredibly self-centered and insensitive of you. You know it is in direct conflict to the TMS theory and will perpetuate the focus on the physical, thereby making it harder for people with TMS to get well. You may have managed to combine the emotional work with working on the physical, but for most that does not reduce the pain if they have TMS. Actually, you are 95% out of pain - why? Why not 100%?
It took all I could muster to really accept and believe the TMS theory as it defied everything I had thought previously. Today, only 3 months later, I am exercising very vigorously and stretching like any other person would without any focus on this muscle here or this muscle there. All of that is absolute no help to TMS sufferers. I have had years of focusing on the physical - after all, that is what all the physical therapists, chiropractors, neurologists etc.had been affirming - that I had disc problems or too tight a piriformis muscle or too flat feet. I have spent thousands on special equipment, massages, physical therapy, orthotics. All those years were wasted - when it was all caused by my emotions. Now, because of Dr. Sarno, I have my life back.
I think this board should be here to help people put this TMS work into practic in their daily lives if they are a sufferer - that is it.
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JayP
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 14:40:24
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Great post, Suz, and I agree that there is way too much physical talk going on here. When I decided to drop my chiropractor and really get back to focusing on TMS, I couldn't believe how quickly I progressed. In fact, as I look back on posts talking about relaxing muscles and not holding our abdominals tight, I really thought I was heading down the right road, but in reality, I was heading back down the physical road. The only way I got relief was to work on the 9-step plan (Amir's), and sure enough, my pain was gone. I've held in my abdominal muscles all my life--I'm a woman--what woman doesn't?? And if that was really what was causing the pain, why didn't it last year and the year before?
I'm very happy you're doing so well. Keep up the work, don't slack off. It's easy to do. Your post deserves to be on my topic "Positive Results". I started that topic because I wanted to start seeing more positive "talk" on this forum. There isn't enough of it, and as you said, way too much focus on the physical.
Keep up the great work!
JayP
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 14:55:39
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| I agree with you, Suz, that any focus on the physical - whether it be thoughts of a structural anormality, of a tight or tense muscle, of poor posture, or of incorrect bio-mechanical movements - and the need to "correct" these things which may or may not exist - are going to disrupt the progress of most TMS suffers, especially the newbies, who are trying to implement Sarno's anti-TMS advice. Why screw around with a system (Sarno's) that has helped thousands (at least according to Sarno's self-reported research) and has helped tremendously so many of us who post on this board (thanks Gary for starting this board -- if it were not for this board, I never would have accepted Sarno 100% and doubt that I would have made the substantial progress that I have enjoyed). All the flirtations that I have had with this or that tight muscle/postural/structural theory have resulted in major steps backward for me in my efforts to rid myself of sciatic and buttocks pain. I find it increasingly difficult to listen to non-purists viewpoints although I am, believe it or not, by nature a very open-minded and skeptical person.....Stay true to Sarno's model. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 15:17:16
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Suz: I know that people like Gary say that it is healthy to question and not just blindly accept the TMS theory - but actually IT IS NOT HEALTHY AT ALL FOR PEOPLE WITH TMS. It is harmful - shame on you Gary.
The way I see it, it is your kind of Moonie-esque, mindless fanatical thinking that is harmful. You encourage people to practice rigid mind-control but when it breaks down, as it inevitably does, all their progress goes out the window with it.
In my experience, it is doing the psychological work that makes the difference -- at least against pain that is of psychological origin -- not how strong your fanaticism may or may not be.
It is also harmful, in my opinion, to preach that the only cause of body pain is repressed emotions. It is irresponsible to lead people to believe that how they behave, treat their bodies, physical habits they may have, do not make any difference. Of course they do. Only a fool thinks otherwise. |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 15:39:45
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"Yes - 2 scoops - I believe that is what this forum is about. I would like to help those people who have TMS to get rid of their pain. All I can do is emphasize the theory and tell my story.
I know that people like Gary say that it is healthy to question and not just blindly accept the TMS theory - but actually IT IS NOT HEALTHY AT ALL FOR PEOPLE WITH TMS. It is harmful - shame on you Gary. You may enjoy leisurely debating and hypothesizing on the physical aspect of pain - but it is incredibly self-centered and insensitive of you. You know it is in direct conflict to the TMS theory and will perpetuate the focus on the physical, thereby making it harder for people with TMS to get well. You may have managed to combine the emotional work with working on the physical, but for most that does not reduce the pain if they have TMS. Actually, you are 95% out of pain - why? Why not 100%?
It took all I could muster to really accept and believe the TMS theory as it defied everything I had thought previously. Today, only 3 months later, I am exercising very vigorously and stretching like any other person would without any focus on this muscle here or this muscle there. All of that is absolute no help to TMS sufferers. I have had years of focusing on the physical - after all, that is what all the physical therapists, chiropractors, neurologists etc.had been affirming - that I had disc problems or too tight a piriformis muscle or too flat feet. I have spent thousands on special equipment, massages, physical therapy, orthotics. All those years were wasted - when it was all caused by my emotions. Now, because of Dr. Sarno, I have my life back.
I think this board should be here to help people put this TMS work into practic in their daily lives if they are a sufferer - that is it."
Once again well done.
"It is also harmful, in my opinion, to preach that the only cause of body pain is repressed emotions. It is irresponsible to lead people to believe that how they behave, treat their bodies, physical habits they may have, do not make any difference. Of course they do. Only a fool thinks otherwise."
Once again Gary, you attack someone else for doing the TMS work. What keeps you here, go be a physical therapist already. I wonder how many people you have helped here, think about that. You never have anything to say about TMS. That is the focus here.
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 07:25:16
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Once again Gary, you attack someone else for doing the TMS work. What keeps you here, go be a physical therapist already. I wonder how many people you have helped here, think about that. You never have anything to say about TMS. That is the focus here.
Obviously, I have not attacked anyone for "doing the TMS work" nor have I ever done so. Does this quote -- from the very post to which you are replying here -- support your contention?
Austingary: In my experience, it is doing the psychological work that makes the difference -- at least against pain that is of psychological origin -- not how strong your fanaticism may or may not be.
I think not. But I do defend myself when I am attacked for attempting to be a voice of reason. BTW, if you despise my words so much, why do you continue to read my posts? What is there about me that so fascinates you?
In any case, once again, scoops, you demonstrate that you don't even know what the TMS work is. I think my credentials around here on that score have been established pretty solidly over the last three years, thank you. As for how many people I have helped, I will let others judge that.
You and some of the other thought-control fanatics who habituate this board seem to think that the TMS work is a matter of religious faith -- as you believe, so shall you get relief. But that is mistaken.
The TMS work is a matter of changing mental habits by changing what you do in response to pain. Instead of focusing on the pain and visualizing the painful area, you turn your mind to your emotions, especially any anger you can contact. In private, you may even give vent to the anger with your voice and your body. In this way, you re-train your mind that pain = emotion instead of pain = avoidance of emotion and the psychogenic pain goes away.
There are other aspects to it, but that is the essence of the TMS work. It does not require religous belief. It does not require that you eliminate any and all thoughts that there could be any physical cause for any of your pain. It requires that you do the work, assiduously. The only belief it requires is enough to do the work. More belief than that will take care of itself, as you improve, and will help you to apply yourself even more to doing the work.
Your erroneous interpretation of the anti-TMS work closes the door to rational people who A. tend to be skeptical until they see that a method actually works, B. are unable to simply make themselves believe something because they have decided to believe it, and C. understand that health and freedom from pain and illness require a lot more than just thinking or believing something. |
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Irish Jimmy
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 08:39:23
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| I'm in agreement to keep this board and it's posts on the psychological aspects of recovery and not the physical. This is the basis of TMS. This is important, especially for people new to this TMS thing. It's too serious a matter, and we want to avoid putting doubts into peoples' minds, especially when this could be the only thing that helps them. TMS is the only thing that has helped me. Let's stay with Sarno's theories and principles folks, they've only helped thousands. Take care. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 09:11:20
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If reading messages on this board is enough to put doubt into people's minds about the psychogenic basis of TMS, then (1) their belief is not strong to begin with, (2) they are reading too much into the messages. To be clear, by "belief" I am not talking about some blind religious faith; I am talking about an understanding of the theory and acceptance that it applies to them. All that is needed to reach this point is to read Dr. Sarno's book.
No messages here have outright disputed that TMS is real and that it is a psychological syndrome. Yet, it seems like some people have drawn that conclusion.
In my opinion, the start of this thread is contrary to TMS. I strongly believe that doing exercises specifically designed to treat "tight" muscles is one of the worst things you can do when starting to treat TMS. Looking at the pain in a physical way, in any physical way during this important time sends the wrong message to your unconscious, which is stubborn to begin with.
Nevertheless, I will not tolerate any personal attacks on this forum. As always people are free to express their opinions here. I allow a certain amount of leeway regarding the topics discussed, because I believe in a free exchange of ideas, even if they are contrary to my own opinion and stray from the core TMS theory.
Please, be aware of the line between a strongly voiced opinion and a personal attack. If you are offended by certain members, do not read their posts. Instead of posting a response, look inward. |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 07:51:38
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It's been quite a while since I posted anything but I read the forums from time to time. It does concern me to see all the talk on focusing on different physical aspects as the cause of pain. This only reinforces the minds ability to continue the deception. I personally think belief is of vital importance in recovering from TMS. I know Gary and others despise the thought of belief or faith but I think that comes from a misunderstanding of the term. Belief to me is nothing magical, in and of itself it does not do anything. I was in awful shape for 3 years.
I run a farm and when the pain started it changed my whole life. It got to the point where I could hardly do anything. Days were bad and nights were terrible. I had to lie on the floor hours each day and could only sit in a hard chair. I went to several different doctors and was told my condition was something that would never get better and could get worse. I "believed" what I was told and promptly got worse. I looked rationally at the evidence I was presented by the doctors, namely that my back had a defect and was quite fragile and I had to be careful how I stood, walked and bent so I would not injure it further, and I "believed" them.
Then I stumbled upon Dr.Sarno's book. Like most, I dismissed it at first but as I read it again I began to see the personality traits he spoke about in my own life. The inconsistancies he spoke of in the physical symptoms I discovered in mine. The evidence he presented that the physical changes, bulging and herniated disks etc, do not cause chronic pain I found to be compeling and overwhelming.
After rereading his book several times and studying what he said, I chose to "believe" his theory. After allowing time to let the truths I had learned to sink deeply into my mind by reviewing them over and over I had to put them into practice. If my pain was not due to a structural problem as I now "believed" then it is only logical for me to resume normal activities. I started slowly with simple things and each day or so added a new activity I had given up due to a "bad back".
Within a couple of months I was back to doing everything I had always done. The funny thing was, that each time I would do something new I would have to reinforce my mind in the "belief" that there was nothing structurally wrong with my back so there was no reason I could not do this. Sometimes I would get pain but I would continue with the activity, if not then at least by the next day, and continue doing it till my mind gave in and accepted the truth that had just been reinforced by that activity, namely that there is nothing structurally wrong with my back.
That was about 2 years ago and I still read portions of Dr.Sarnos books to refresh my mind in proper "belief" and thinking. The Tms has tried to pop up different places but the same system I just described has put it down time and again. As of this writing I am back to 100% of what I was minus a little slow down due to aging. I pick about 200lbs of tomatoes every day bent over in every concievable way or crawling around to reach the tomatoes way back in the center or bottoms of the plants. I work 14 hour days, 6 days a week and last night didn't get done till 9:30PM after spraying with a 30lb sprayer which I often have to tote on my back over a mile. Do I get tired? yes. Do I get sore muscles? definitly. But these go away with rest. The chronic pain that was not due to physical exertion is gone due to logical application of right "belief".
Your actions show more clearly than words what you truly believe. I choose to believe Dr.Sarno's theory is correct and act upon it. If I am wrong then all my relief is due only to Placebo and will eventually fade. If I am right and Dr.Sarno is correct all the PT and chiropractors and tight pelvic muscles are in error and produce placebo. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 09:52:13
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FarmerEd: I know Gary and others despise the thought of belief or faith
I don't know where you get that. Back when I ran this site, I even posted some book titles, such as "The Power of Your Subconscious Mind" on the "Books" page that are all about how you can change your life by changing your beliefs. I, personally, practice vigilance over what I allow myself to casually implant into my belief system. To a great extent, our world is formed by what we believe about it.
The problem comes when you try to make life changes by forcing yourself to believe things that you don't really think are true. Eventually, the artificial edifice you have built up usually comes crumbling down pretty quickly. Truth, or the closest you can come to it, is usually best.
But I do not suggest that people think of the anti-TMS work in the same way that they might think of a faith-based religion, i.e., it works just because you believe in it. That is not to say that it may not work just because you believe in it, but so does Voodoo.
I think the way it works best is when you use the psychological work as a tool to re-train your mind, so that it no longer automatically responds to emotional pain by creating body pain. A person can do that work, even if he believes in the TMS concept just enough to try it.
I think the over-reaction by emotional types to me and some of my ideas on this board comes from the fact that some of these people live with complicated religions and other belief systems that are supported by nothing more than their belief. They have no grounding in logical thinking or basing what they believe on evidence, rather than what they desire to be true. So no evidence whatsoever backs up the most important ideas in their lives and, consequently, they live in fear of someone kicking over the fragile support under these edifices they have built up.
This is why irrational, emotionally-driven people can be so dangerous, btw, especially when they get into positions of power. They become fanatical, thought-control-oriented, totalitarians. They will do anything to prevent reason from intruding into their belief structures. Witness the horror coming out of the MidEast now to see what that looks like.
Finally, I do not think that there is such a clear dividing line between "placebo" and other forms of cure as Dr. Sarno and most other doctors would have us believe. It seems to me that if your positive reaction to Dr. Sarno's ideas are completely based on belief in them, then you are, in fact, getting a "placebo" cure, no matter what you call it. And there is nothing wrong with that. I am not even sure that a "placebo" cure is sure to fade quickly, either.
On the other hand, if you approach the anti-TMS work as exercises to re-train your mind, then, I think, the result of that work may be quite different from a placebo cure, based on belief. You have not changed because of what you believe but rather because your mind now has a new habit of behaving differently, due to your constant practice of making it do so.
Wouldn't you feel more free, more at ease, if you thought that you didn't have to constantly prop up your belief in what Dr. Sarno says in his books in order to say free of pain? Wouldn't that be comforting to you? Well, that's my message.
What I am saying is that the anti-TMS techniques do, in fact, work. And they work well enough that you should not have to constantly pump up your belief in them, as though they did not work. Just do them, diligently, and you will see results. I think that is a very positive message with regard to the anti-TMS work but, obviously, those who live in terror of any threat to their "faith" will never agree.
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Susie
USA
319 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 10:12:06
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| Gary- You used a phrase in your last post that I think says it all. I refer to re-train your mind. I think , in a nutshell, that is what this is all about. When symptoms occur, we must stop our mind from fearing and dwelling on the symptoms and switch over to the psycological aspect. This is easier said then done as we all know. That is basically what Rick Carson was trying to say in Taming Your Gremlin. Stop your brain from going to locations that are detrimental and frightening and instead, guide it to where you choose and I put emphasis in the word, guide. Sarno teaches us that we can basically control many aspects of our health by controling our thinking and he gives us the rational why. Whether it is placebo or a true control of our unconcious, I don't know. I know it works. |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 11:08:02
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Hello Gary,
You Wrote:"I, personally, practice vigilance over what I allow myself to casually implant into my belief system. To a great extent, our world is formed by what we believe about it.
The problem comes when you try to make life changes by forcing yourself to believe things that you don't really think are true."
I agree. That is why I said I first read and studied Dr.Sarno's theory and decided it was correct and that I would believe it. This has indeed changed the way my world is formed and the way I view it and my actions have changed accordingly. I regret using the word "despise" and appologize for the choice perhaps contempt would have been a better choice. From your posts in the past and this recent one I think it is fair to say you have contempt for blind faith. If that is incorrect I'm sorry but that is the way it comes across to me.
You Wrote: "Truth, or the closest you can come to it, is usually best."
I agree with this and I believe that the closest I can come to it in this matter is Dr. Sarno's theory.
You Wrote:" But I do not suggest that people think of the anti-TMS work in the same way that they might think of a faith-based religion, i.e., it works just because you believe in it. That is not to say that it may not work just because you believe in it, but so does Voodoo"
I agree with you here as well and that is what I was trying to get across in my other post. My view of belief and faith is perhaps different from others. I also think Belief must be grounded in something true, it does not magically make something become true. If Dr.Sarno is correct and most structural problems do not cause pain, but the pain is mainly psycogenic, then that remains true whether I believe it or not. My believeing it does not make it true it only allows me to derive a benefit from that truth. If Dr. Sarno is wrong, then all my belief does is cause a temporary placebo effect that will go away in time. If most structural back problems [/b]are[/b] the true source of back pain then that also will remain true whether I believe it or not and the pain will eventually return.
I do not intend to turn this into a religious debate and Dave, feel free to delete this paragraph if you feel it inappropriate, I think this is the correct view of faith and belief taught in the bible. The Apostle Paul wrote in 1Corinthians 15:13-17 "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea and we are found false witnesses of God: because we testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is Christ not raised; and if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain" He went on to say a few verses later, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most misrable" and, "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageeth it me if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die."
I only quote this to show Paul was not a man lacking in logic . He also understood that if the truth that was the basis of his belief was a lie then he was an idiot and of all men most miserable. No amount of belief will turn a lie into the truth. If Sarno's truth turns out to be a lie I'm an idiot for doing things that other doctors say will devestate my weak fragile back.
You Wrote:"Wouldn't you feel more free, more at ease, if you thought that you didn't have to constantly prop up your belief in what Dr. Sarno says in his books in order to stay free of pain? Wouldn't that be comforting to you?"
Of course it would and more concrete evidence that Dr.Sarno is correct would be welcome. The problem is that most work done in the area of back pain focuses on a structural problem being the root cause. With all this wrong information constantly bombarding us it is difficult not to drift back into that mindset, hence the need to refresh the mind with the basic principals of Sarno's theory. If his theory was the predominant one taught I don't think this would be as necessary.
Ed |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 09:28:47
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Ed:From your posts in the past and this recent one I think it is fair to say you have contempt for blind faith.
Someone once said that "faith" is believing something you know damn well ain't true.
The way I see it, some elements of my world view are well-supported by the evidence, at least enough evidence to suffice for day-to-day life, where "testimonial" evidence, for example, that would not be acceptable in a good scientific study, is sufficient 90% of the time. (My wife says she got phone call; I accept that she got a phone call.)
Then there is everything else that you might say that I "believe", all the facts and factoids about the world and the universe for which there is no definitive proof. I have beliefs and opinions about all these things but I am open to the idea that I could wrong and, in the final analysis, the truth of the matter is a mystery.
When I walk outside at night and look up at the stars -- apparently, there are fifty billion at least in just our galaxy and we have evidence of at least fifty billion galaxies -- the universe laughs at my little beliefs and opinions. How arrogant I would be to say that I "know" this and I "know" that about the universe and how it works! Sure, I have my ideas, beliefs and opinions but I will always reserve the possibility that I am competely wrong -- the universe demands it!
You have strayed off into your religion, quoting its founder, Paul, talking about faith. So, I will add this aside to yours: As you probably know, the earliest extant writings about Christianity are his "Epistles".
You might be interested in the work of the Canadian historian and classical scholar, Earl Doherty, who wrote a book called "The Jesus Puzzle". He came to the conclusion, based on extensive studies of all the Christian writings, that Paul never meant to suggest that the Christ in whom he had faith had ever lived in this world at all, but rather in another "heavenly" world, a kind of separate dimension.
Ideas like this were common at that time and were a part of many "mystery" religions like Christianity. The Greek gods were thought to have lived in such a world. So, the faith that Paul talked about was perhaps not faith in things that had ever actually happened but in things that had happened off in this "heaven".
Later, Christians re-interpreted his ideas to apply to the actual world, at a time and place some 100 years or so earlier. So, Paul's "faith" may not have been as demanding as we might think.
Ed: If Dr. Sarno is wrong, then all my belief does is cause a temporary placebo effect that will go away in time. If most structural back problems [/b]are[/b] the true source of back pain then that also will remain true whether I believe it or not and the pain will eventually return.
I have a couple of problems with this. The first is that a "placebo effect" will necessarily fade in time. I think that much of our perceived, personal world is determined by what we believe about it, true or false, and the effects of our beliefs may or may not fade away in time. If I believe that I am inferior to others, for example, then I may fail time after time because I am unconsciously acting out this belief, even though, by all objective standards, my belief is untrue. This could continue for my entire life. I don't think that this differs from the placebo effect in any substantial way.
We also know that beliefs can make substantive physical changes in the body. Everything from prayer to faith healing to little family rituals to make warts go away actually work sometimes and nobody really knows how. Some problems are very susceptible to beliefs while others are not. It is my personal opinion that the "placebo" does not differ in any substantive way from other attempts to alter the body through the manipulation of beliefs. Why should the results of a placebo not last long while the results of prayer, faith healing and those wart-removal rituals sometimes do? I think they are all probably the same thing.
Also, here you are confusing "structural" with "physical". I have never said that I disagreed with Sarno one bit as to the idea that most structural problems, such as bones out of alignment, do not cause body pain in and of themselves. (Of course, it is probably a matter of degree, as in just about everything else.) There is plenty of hard evidence to support Dr. Sarno here.
But to say that the world of the "physical" does not cause pain, well, that, I think, is preposterous. We are physical bodies, biological creatures. When we abuse our bodies, especially when we abuse them habitually over long periods of time, we cause ourselves all kinds of difficulties. The way we live is extremely abnormal, compared to the way our ancestors lived, going back a billion years. There is no way that our evolutionary environment could have selected for anything remotely like our life today in the United States. Unless the evidence for their existence has been completely covered up or destroyed (Atlantis, anyone?), no humans have ever lived the way we do today.
In this country, machines do most of the work and there is more food than anyone could possibly eat. But we are not adapted for this egregiously abnormal life and, while the benefits are obvious, we also pay a price for it. To suggest, as Dr. Sarno does, that we have evolved to deal with the elements of modern Western civilization is just ludicrous. An intelligent person in our world must constantly make choices to help him compensate physically, as well as mentally, for the gross abnormality of modern life.
In my case, I do the anti-TMS work -- turning my mind from pain to the emotions -- as a matter of habit now, without really thinking too much about it. I just assume that at least some of the pricks and pains of my life are emotionally-based.
But I also eat a highly nutritious diet and limit my calorie intake severely. I run and work out in a gym, walk up and down stairs, mow my own lawn and so on. And, every morning, I do a little set of yoga-based exercises that are specifically designed to keep my back, butt, pelvis and other body areas flexible. I am attending to the physical, which, for a biological creature like myself, is at least as important as anything I change in how I think.
Finally, Ed, I think there are two ways one could get benefits from Sarno's work: One is via pure belief -- what Sarno calls a temporary placebo effect but, I think, could last a long time, perhaps a lifetime. The other is from "doing the work": day after day, constantly turning the mind from the pain to the emotions. By doing this kind of work, I think we may be able to re-train the mind so that it stops reacting to our emotions by creating pain. This work I think we can do even if our overall belief in Sarno's theories is weak; we only need just enough belief to do the work. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 09:59:26
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| Right on, FarmerEd! What an elegant post! And what a great success story. |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 10:45:10
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Gary said "The way I see it, it is your kind of Moonie-esque, mindless fanatical thinking that is harmful. You encourage people to practice rigid mind-control but when it breaks down, as it inevitably does, all their progress goes out the window with it."
This is a very good point. Since most people with TMS are perfectionists, it is realistic that they would try to treat their TMS with this same personality trait that is one of the causes of TMS, and try to use this "rigid mind control" that Gary speaks of.
A much more realistic approach is needed regardless of whether we believe our pain is 100% psychogenic or a mix of psychogenic/physical.
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Tight pelvic muscles
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