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jeffRCarlson
USA
4 Posts |
 Posted - 08/08/2006 : 10:22:27
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I have been reading through the posts and it looks like many treat any/every pain as a symptom of TMS and not a real injury.
How do you tell the difference?
While suffering from severe RSI of the arms I developed a knee problem while running to relieve stress. Following much of what I read about Sarno I should have ignored it (which I tried to do for 2 years). Finally I pushed the doctor for an MRI and discovered I had a meniscus tear. After surgery my knee is now pain free.
If I had followed Sarno's advice I would still be suffering from knee pain.
So again what is the criteria if any for determining if it's stress, subconscious mind, etc... causing the problem versus something real?
Certainly in the case of my knee all the signs/symptoms to claim it was my mind and the associated stress of possibly losing my job from my RSI in the arms that was causing the problem. I had what I believe with a classic symptoms to point to a mind not body issue yet ultimately the problem is real and had nothing to do with the mind.
Thanks jrc
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2006 : 10:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffRCarlson
I have been reading through the posts and it looks like many treat any/every pain as a symptom of TMS and not a real injury.
How do you tell the difference?
While suffering from severe RSI of the arms I developed a knee problem while running to relieve stress. Following much of what I read about Sarno I should have ignored it (which I tried to do for 2 years). Finally I pushed the doctor for an MRI and discovered I had a meniscus tear. After surgery my knee is now pain free.
If I had followed Sarno's advice I would still be suffering from knee pain.
So again what is the criteria if any for determining if it's stress, subconscious mind, etc... causing the problem versus something real?
Certainly in the case of my knee all the signs/symptoms to claim it was my mind and the associated stress of possibly losing my job from my RSI in the arms that was causing the problem. I had what I believe with a classic symptoms to point to a mind not body issue yet ultimately the problem is real and had nothing to do with the mind.
Thanks jrc
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THis is an exceedingly difficult question...Probably the one we all struggle witih the most...There's no simple answer unfortunately...
The first thing to do if in serious doubt is to see a TMS doc.
As you know from the reading, many benign conditions seen on x-rays and mri's are often considered proof of structural problems by unenlightened physicians...
Having said all that, chances are quite good that if a person has found his or her way to this site, most aches and pains are in fact TMS..Yours evidently was an exception...
I say evidently because it seems to me I read in one of Sarno's books that some operations for a torn meniscus are actually unnecessary.. |
Edited by - art on 08/08/2006 10:48:13 |
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shari
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2006 : 10:45:10
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| Sarno says that the first step is to see a doctor who will determine whether your pain is TMS or not. In the case of your knee, your doctor gave you a correct diagnosis, and you shouldn't have waited two years before seeing him. I agree with you that many people on this board tend to self-diagnose every pain and ache to TMS instead of consulting a doctor first. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2006 : 11:00:03
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Jeff,
Are you still suffering from RSI?
What Shari and Art said is correct. If I had some new pain that wasn't obviously an acute injury, I would probably try treating it
1) as a mild injury, if there was some reasonable precipitating factor, with rest/ice/etc
2) as mindbody, if it didn't heal within a reasonable time or there was no known factor to start it
3) as a potentially real acute or chronic injury, if I saw no improvement after a few weeks or a month of mindbody (based on the fact that I successfully banished my primany TMS, forearm RSI, in a month, I wouldn't think another bout would last much longer and I'd want to get things checked out if it did).
4) As mindbody again, if there was no good explanation for it after examination (hopefully by a TMS doctor, but otherwise by a regular doctor).
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
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sonora sky
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2006 : 12:35:41
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Also, one way that I can tell if a new symptom is TMS-related, is that my previous/current symptom (in your case, RSI) lessens or dissapears as the new symptom (knee pain, in your case) increases. I think Sarno refers to this as the 'symptom imperitive.' Usually, when I begin to see improvement in one area, I notice a different symptom starting somewhere else. I rarely have more than one severe symptom occuring at any one time. From the TMS gremlin's point of view, it's not necessary to have two excruciating conditions simultaneously, when one will do the trick to distract you from your emotions. Though I'm not sure this is true for ALL TMSers. . .(??)
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2006 : 12:45:34
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Sonora,
It was certainly true with me that I would have only one "major" pain at a time when I suffered my TMS.
JRC, I once heard it said that "RSI is ALWAYS something you are avoiding dealing with." Hope you've checked out Nate McNamara's site at www.conquerrsi.com. Nobody should suffer from RSI. I know, I suffered for 7 years.
I have to agree that I believe lots of torn soft tissue heals eventually, maybe all. Of course, it's good news you didn't have to wait.
For me, its always clear when it's a real injury. Gets worse with use, gets better with rest. Period. Gets a little stronger and better every day, none of this better and worse roller coaster.
Beth |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2006 : 13:35:45
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quote:
Gets worse with use, gets better with rest. Period. Gets a little stronger and better every day, none of this better and worse roller coaster.
That has the virtue of simplicity...plus, it makes good common sense...
However, it's not fool proof...Illiotibial Band Syndrome for one, definitely gets worse with use, and better with rest, and yet it's often TMS...Was with me...
I'd just run til it set in, then keep running til it got so bad I couldn't take another step....Then I'd repeat the process on my next running day...Based on symptoms, there's no way I would have thought that could be TMS, but Dr. Z and one or two others set me str8...
THree cheers for this forum   |
Edited by - art on 08/08/2006 13:37:10 |
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jeffRCarlson
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 11:04:35
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So is it true that the fact that my RSI did not get better while my knee got worse should have been an indication that it was not likely TMS related since most TMS issues are singular in nature?
Back to my RSI issue since many here seem to have suffered from RSI and the mind-body approach helped. I do not currently suffer from any repetitive stress injury symptoms on a daily basis because I now use voice recognition software to do my job.
However it only takes a day or two of backing away from the voice-recognition to start getting mild symptoms of repetitive stress injury back in my forearms.
The difference now between my full-blown RSI 6 years ago and the state I am currently at is the key few days rest in my arms are back to normal. When I was in my full-blown RSI state even a few weeks rest showed little or no improvement.
I have not read Dr. Sarno's book yet but had many people on the sore hands newsgroup recommend it. However from what I understand the mind-body approach you basically ignore your symptoms. Which is what I did as well is following at advice for my physical therapist which worsened the problem considerably.
So it's not hard to believe there could have been a mind body component since I was under I stressed begin with and that stress even increased once I was unable to do my job.
Now I take life in a completely different view, a much more relaxed state, do not stress about work, exercise regularly, etc.
So I would think if my RSI condition was TMS related that in my current state they should be able to go back to typing eight hours a day without having problems. However as I mentioned earlier it only takes a day or two of backing away from the voice-recognition and/or an evening of playing Xbox with the kids to remind me that I am now more susceptible than I used be.
To me this is an indication that my repetitive stress injury was real and not a mind body issue. Does this sound like a reasonable conclusion to those of you who have experienced similar situations?
Thanks jrc
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 11:39:08
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jrc,
the fact that you are not back to typing 8 hours a day tells me that you have not dealt with your TMS! NOT that your RSI is not TMS related. I do not believe there is such a thing as "real" RSI. You are not 'more susceptible' than before, you still have TMS symptoms, maybe less severe, maybe you've conditioned yourself differently now to think it gets better with rest, but I believe its TMS symptoms. No repetitive actions can have such a lasting physical effect.
Also, the mind-body approach is NOT (!!!!!!) just to ignore your symptoms.
best,
ndb |
Edited by - ndb on 08/09/2006 11:41:07 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 11:43:52
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffRCarlson
So I would think if my RSI condition was TMS related that in my current state they should be able to go back to typing eight hours a day without having problems. However as I mentioned earlier it only takes a day or two of backing away from the voice-recognition and/or an evening of playing Xbox with the kids to remind me that I am now more susceptible than I used be.
To me this is an indication that my repetitive stress injury was real and not a mind body issue. Does this sound like a reasonable conclusion to those of you who have experienced similar situations?
No, this conclusion is completely inaccurate. You need to read Dr. Sarno's book for a full explanation.
In a nutshell, it's all about conditioning. You are conditioned to feel the RSI symptoms whenever you perform an activity that is supposed to cause them. The symptoms are carefully orchestrated by the unconscious mind to mimic a physical problem in a convincing way.
By the way, you can't ignore the symptoms and see a physical therapist at the same time. That's a contradiction.
Bottom line: read the book before making any more conclusions. It has to be the first step.
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sonora sky
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 11:44:03
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Hi JRC,
First off, I would recommend beginning to read Sarno immediately, so you can get a better grasp on his concepts, right from the source. I think many here would agree that Sarno has a way of explaining things so simply and clearly, that his ideas really 'click' in your mind while reading. I would recommend beginning with The MindBody Prescription, but others on this forum might have a different suggestion.
Battling TMS in your mind differs for each of us, as our situations are all unique. However, from what I've read on this forum and what I have personally experienced, ignoring the pain is NOT usually effective. Especially if the pain is excruciating, you'd have to be a Zen master to convince your mind that the pain does not exist. And furthermore, the pain IS real, so ignoring it (pretending it isn't there) doesn't really get to the root of the problem. I've found that getting angry/frustrated at the pain often makes it worse, so I try not to go that route, either. On a recent thread, someone mentioned the act of acceptance of the pain, or of being mindful of the way you are feeling (body and mind) as a method of interrupting the mind-body pathway of TMS. I think part of the process is 'un-learning' the physical responses you have become accustomed to. In your case, I see the development of a learned response--you are hesitant and/or fearful to use your hands in certain activities during which you have experienced pain in the past, because you fear (maybe expect) that the pain will return. Your mind knows this, so your hands/wrists/arms are a perfect TMS outlet. TMS thrives on fear.
Part of stopping the mind-to-physical-pain cycle is the recognition that the pain response is only TMS. There are a list of statments that Sarno gives in Healing Back Pain (they might be in MBP, too) that you must accept 100% in order to break the TMS cycle. These include believing that the pain is TMS and not some underlying structural problem; because it is TMS, there is nothing to fear; because there is nothing to fear, you must resume all normal physical activity; no harm can come from this activity, because TMS is harmless; you must always think psychological (emotional), not physical, and so on. . . These are important concepts to learn if you choose to follow Sarno's mindbody prescription.
Best of luck!
ss |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 12:10:58
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Jeff,
I would join Beth in recommending Nate's site at conquerrsi.com for excellent information on how to deal with RSI in the context of Sarno's theory. His was the site that allowed me to get control over my RSI. I experience no symptoms now, and I type all day for work as well as working on a journal and website at home sometimes. You can find my story (and HilaryN's, which is really excellent) by searching on the forum for "SuccessStory RSI". I had RSI for three years; Hilary had it for 10. Both of us are completely recovered.
To me, it sounds like you have TMS in the form of RSI. You say that it started while you were under stress. You've reduced the stress and changed your lifestyle, and you don't have symptoms now. That's typical TMS behavior (it's more or less what happened to me). The symptoms go away with stress reduction because reduced stress means reduced rage. They also go away with behavioral restriction, because the behavioral restriction does the job of distracting you in the same way that the pain does.
The reason the symptoms come back when you type is conditioning, and to continue keeping you distracted by limiting your activity. You are conditioned to experience pain on typing, and you also believe it will happen, so it does. Just "ignoring the symptoms" will not help if you don't change your beliefs and attitude about them; the pain will come back both from conditioning and from needing to distract you since the behavioral restriction is no longer present. To deal with your mind's need to distract you, you will likely need to do some of the typical Sarno things, like journaling and other emotional work. Again, Nate's site, as well as Rachel's at http://podolsky.everybody.org/rsi/, are extremely helpful in describing this process.
I hope that these ideas help you and you are able to improve and eventually recover completely.
Edited to add: if you have not read a Sarno book, or have not read one in a while, that's even more important than Nate's site. But Nate's site is a great companion and confirmation.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
Edited by - armchairlinguist on 08/09/2006 12:18:15 |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 13:31:00
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| Don't know if anyone else mentioned this already, but just because there was a meniscus tear on MRI, and just because it got better from surgery, that doesn't mean that the knee pain was not TMS! Surgery can have a huge placebo effect, and it's not uncommon for TMS symptoms to improve after surgery, though they usually come back either in the same location or somewhere else. |
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Tunza
New Zealand
198 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 15:02:25
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I agree with Dr Ziggles. Some TMS doctors refer to this as "white coat syndrome".
I had an interesting experience recently with a cold. I was fighting off a throat/ear infection or something similar (half my workmates were ill with similar things). My glands were up and down and morning and evening my throat and sometimes ears would be sore. It wasn't bad enough to take time off work but I go sick of feeling this way after a week and a half. So off to the doctor so he could take a look in my ears and just check that everything was ok.
He gave me the once over and said he thought I was just taking some time to fight off whatever was hitting my workmates. He said he suspected my immune system was stronger than theirs but that I would just need to be patient while my body fought this thing off.
Well, I felt quite chuffed about what he said about my immune system being strong and went away feeling happy. Lo and behold, the next morning my symptoms were gone. Either the confidence he gave me allowed upped my immune system somehow OR my sickness was TMS and the raised glands etc were just another distraction (I have been having problems with my "wanting to be liked no matter what" affecting my ability to be effective at work).
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Tunza
New Zealand
198 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 15:03:33
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I agree with Dr Ziggles. Some TMS doctors refer to this as "white coat syndrome".
I had an interesting experience recently with a cold. I was fighting off a throat/ear infection or something similar (half my workmates were ill with similar things). My glands were up and down and morning and evening my throat and sometimes ears would be sore. It wasn't bad enough to take time off work but I go sick of feeling this way after a week and a half. So off to the doctor so he could take a look in my ears and just check that everything was ok.
He gave me the once over and said he thought I was just taking some time to fight off whatever was hitting my workmates. He said he suspected my immune system was stronger than theirs but that I would just need to be patient while my body fought this thing off.
Well, I felt quite chuffed about what he said about my immune system being strong and went away feeling happy. Lo and behold, the next morning my symptoms were gone. Either the confidence he gave me allowed upped my immune system somehow OR my sickness was TMS and the raised glands etc were just another distraction (I have been having problems with my "wanting to be liked no matter what" affecting my ability to be effective at work).
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bigbadpete
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 18:57:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sonora sky
In your case, I see the development of a learned response--you are hesitant and/or fearful to use your hands in certain activities during which you have experienced pain in the past, because you fear (maybe expect) that the pain will return. Your mind knows this, so your hands/wrists/arms are a perfect TMS outlet. TMS thrives on fear.
I agree with this heartily. Once I became confident of the diagnosis of TMS, I was able to stop worrying and getting scared when I felt any symptoms coming on. Once you can cut off that emotional reaction to the pain, you can then start gradually increasing your activity level. If and when you feel pain, don't panic, just finish what you were doing if you can, then take a break. For instance, I used to have to drive by barely squeezing the steering wheel to avoid aggravating my forearms. Once I was certain it was TMS, though, I just said the heck with it, and held the wheel normally throughout my (fortunately short) drive to and from work. Yeah, it was painful, but not so much that I couldn't do what I had to do. Eventually, I didn't feel any pain anymore, and not because I was better at ignoring it, because there wasn't any. |
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jeffRCarlson
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 18:57:26
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While I find it quite believable that unconscious conditioning can contribute to things that can be harmful to your body. For example in the case of my RSI from typing I believe I had subconsciously trained my arm muscles to remain tense and at the ready from 10 to 12 hours a day on the computer six days a week. So even when at rest the muscles were still tense and not able to relax and recover.
Biofeedback sessions that I did showed that the arm muscles were far more tense than normal even when I thought I was relaxing.
Even to this date I believe it's easy for me to fall back into the subconscious pattern of tensing up the arm muscles unnecessarily when I switch back to a lot of typing. I just have to stop and think about what I'm doing in between typing and mousing to realize that my muscles are tensed when they don't need to be.
However I do not believe the conditioning/pain/RSI comes from some subconscious fear, anger, or other emotional distress unless I'm living some kind of subconscious life I am completely unaware of. In my conscious life I would find it difficult for things to be much better.
What I believe is that it is a negative side effect of doing any task repetitively.
Just think about how athletes become extremely skilled at any task like shooting a basketball hitting a baseball etc. They practice the task until the mind can subconsciously control the muscles to it. I believe that sometimes referred to as muscle memory but is really just the subconscious kicking in and controlling the muscles somewhat like breathing. You can choose to do it when you want to however it happens without even thinking about it.
I think some people like me who suffer from repetitive stress injuries often have trained the muscles to do the wrong thing and it happens subconsciously rather than consciously. I don't however believe it comes from fear or any other emotional reason. I believe it's just like the athlete do you train the body to do something only not correctly so it causes injury.
I guess I better pick up a copy of his book and get a better understanding of his theories.
Thanks jrc
This message was created using Dragon NaturallySpeaking.
Please pardon Any 'speakos' that may have gone unnoticed In this message.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 19:09:09
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quote:
guess I better pick up a copy of his book and get a better understanding of his theories
This is the very best way to start. |
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flyefisher
48 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 20:18:50
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The answer??
Well, Sarno says right up front you need diagnostics to determine the presence of real injury. Your MRI should have been done in the beginning.
For those of us who have had all the diagnostics under the sun and still no problem is inferred, then it may be TMS.
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sonora sky
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 21:16:35
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quote:
What I believe is that it is a negative side effect of doing any task repetitively.
I think some people like me who suffer from repetitive stress injuries often have trained the muscles to do the wrong thing and it happens subconsciously rather than consciously. I don't however believe it comes from fear or any other emotional reason. I believe it's just like the athlete do you train the body to do something only not correctly so it causes injury.
I guess I better pick up a copy of his book and get a better understanding of his theories.
Hi JRC, if you truly believe that your pain is a "negative side effect of doing any task repetitively," that thinking is running counter to your undertanding and acceptance of Sarno's theories about TMS. People have been doing repetitive tasks for hundreds of years, certainly since the industrial revolution. All of a sudden there is an epidemic of RSIs, but not because people are doing any more repetitive tasks than before. Think of the horrible sweatshop/assembly line conditions in the 19th century--why didn't these people develop CTS? Or the unfortunate conditions in which some people live and work today in '3rd world' countries. Why isn't there an epedemic of CTS in China? In both of these cases, people work(ed) for longer hours than we do today. Why is it that 20-30 years ago, there was no such thing as RSI, but now, almost every checkout person at the grocery store is wearing a wrist bandage? Sarno talks about TMS taking the form of injuries that are 'in fashion' and ones that can be easily explained away (though not well) by physical means.
I wonder if your personality traits fit the profile of the typical TMSer. In your postings you have thoroughly discussed your physical symptoms but you have said very little about your emotional life, personality, stressors, etc. I am interested to know whether you will "see yourself" in the pages of Sarno's books like many of us have.
Best,
SS |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 08:41:43
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffRCarlson
However I do not believe the conditioning/pain/RSI comes from some subconscious fear, anger, or other emotional distress unless I'm living some kind of subconscious life I am completely unaware of. In my conscious life I would find it difficult for things to be much better.
Please READ THE BOOK.
We are all living "some kind of subconscious life [we are] completely unaware of." It's part of being human. |
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So how do you tell TMS from a real injury?
