| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/02/2014 : 21:58:19
Hey guys! Only a year between posts this time, I'm getting better (or is it worse?).
I actually sprained myself again about six months ago, same foot different tissue, but I had the same course of healing as before - difficult, with relapses not explained by tissue pathology. I've been startlingly unwilling to consider it TMS this time, I guess because I just keep thinking I must have done something terrible to my ankle and that's why it keeps hurting.
Recently I've been considering it again though because I realized that at this point the anxiety about the pain, the analysis and concern over every little twinge, is worse than the actual twinges, and that not infrequently, my uninjured but overburdened right foot feels worse than my "injured" but underused left foot.
Not really thinking about TMS, but thinking about the emotional component and possible neural miswring, I started researching "pain and hypervigilance" on the web and came up with some interesting links where they discuss the neural sensitization that can occur, and I even found an article from the Cleveland Clinic about "chronic nonmalignant pain syndrome", which after reading I realized is the fanciest newest medical talk for ... TMS. http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/medicalpubs/diseasemanagement/psychiatry-psychology/chronic-nonmalignant-pain/ Oh yeah, I know something about that thing...
I must say it's a great comfort to me to come back here and find you all still here, healing and helping others heal. It feels a bit like coming home. I was looking for people who understand what I've been dealing with, and here you are.
Aside from advising paced return to activity, where Sarno is much more full-on, and not giving as much airtime to emotional components (though there's plenty of mention of mindfulness and relaxation - similar idea), the advice for coping with what they call CNMP or neural oversensitivity is basically the same as TMS. I think I might go more that direction for now (it's basically the advice the doc/PT have been giving me anyway) just to not overwhelm myself with the fear that's been such a big obstacle to progress.
Any thoughts and encouragement welcome. BTW, I did have some big stressors in my life this year as well. In fact I had LITERALLY just moved into the house I bought, the day before I sprained my ankle again! And a few months before I had changed jobs. So, moving, owning a house, new job. Those are just some minor stressors, right? 
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What were you expecting? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 01/13/2015 : 22:38:41
It's interesting to keep this thread, it's almost like a recovery log. 12/22: Worried about walking 32 blocks. 1/13: Considers walking ~30 blocks roundtrip routine, experiences few symptoms with that roundtrip distance.
I am still experiencing periods of acute worry, often with very small and random triggers such as lightly kicking the left foot with the right. Only hurt after I thought "Shouldn't that bother me?"
Still a fair amount of day to day irritation but I mostly ignore it. While I sometimes habitually sit to wait for something, or stand more on my right foot, the habits are less now. Conditioned pain is definitely still an issue and it does bother me more than it probably would in an uninjured joint because it smacks of injury or the potential for future injury. Conditioned fear is a bigger issue. Although I overcame the distance barrier (the first one at least) the barriers around more adventurous activities are still present. Hoping that in a month or so I'll be back saying I've cracked a few more. :)
I haven't been able to really determine a particular cause for this round although I think that general angst about approaching middle age and the fragility of life is playing a role, probably combined with more typical work and house stress. I have been to the OT once more and find diminishing returns, except that the relaxation state that she induces is better than any other one I've gotten. I really must figure out how to do that on my own.
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What were you expecting? |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/22/2014 : 10:55:12
Definitely struggling after yesterday - all the conditioned fear is like "Hi! You should be worried about this!"
The funny thing is there isn't that much to be worried about. I woke up with my foot not feeling sore, and just a little swollen. So I can tell it's more about habit and conditioning.
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What were you expecting? |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/21/2014 : 22:04:22
I did finally take the next step to walk further - total 32 blocks today, besides the chores I did earlier. Not too surprised that the heat / inflammation and then pain have kicked up. Deconditioning takes time. Trying to think psychologically...
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What were you expecting? |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/21/2014 : 14:51:55
That's a good suggestion. I'm a trained amateur musician, so there's a lot of music I like, and I sort of enjoy those kind of "relaxation music CDs" that a lot of massage therapists use. Norah Jones has a similar hypnotic effect (I listen to her on planes to fall asleep), as does a CD I have of modern takes on Hindu chants (Sean Johnson and the Wild Lotus Band). Some Dar Williams and Beth Orton works for that as well, although not quite as good, I tend to get too wrapped up in the actual music for those.
If I could get myself to sit or lie down for a few minutes a day listening to any of that, I suspect it would improve my life a lot. Something to do post-dinner, maybe.
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What were you expecting? |
| alexis |
Posted - 12/19/2014 : 09:17:28
One thing I did find I could do more often was short meditations with music. It really depends on your meditation goals (probably not a route to enlightenment), but for things like calming and focussing the mind music has many of the same benefits, and for me music accompanied meditations are a good compromise. I use the same relaxing music for things like laundry that I hate. I'm borderline tone deaf so I won't recommend music, but what I use is both peaceful to me and dischordant (if that's the right word) enough to break up thought loops. I read once that classical Indian music works better for this reason, although that's not what I use (mine is sort of a piano and nature sounds mix). |
| alexis |
Posted - 12/19/2014 : 09:00:28
I have a similar problem doing meditation, though intellectually I believe it is helpful in numerous psychological and pain related ways (I did a good grad level course on both research and practice plus did the full MBSR program as a part of it). I find organized meditation (at a local insight society) very helpful, but don't have the discipline to stick to it on my own, even using guided meditations. Let me know if you come up with a way to stay with it! |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/18/2014 : 23:38:41
At my old job I didn't attend a standup standing up until probably about six months in. I just borrowed a seat...But those took forever - standups are only supposed to be 10 min or so, which is what this one is.
Yesterday I went out with a friend, and did some chores around home, tonight an appointment with the OT and then more chores, and I also went to the post office today to mail something and had to stand in line. I saw more inflammation both days than on Tuesday, and the trigger point on the bottom of my foot is clearly acting up, which is quite fine because it is not the original injury :) Most of my focus has been on confidence, paying less attention to any pain and not fearing minor twinges, and some emotional focus, thinking about stuff that bothered me.
I really have that confidence barrier to get over as far as increasing beyond what I have done before (this week is just more quantity, not more quality). I may try this weekend or next. When the OT was working on me tonight I suddenly wanted to go swim/float in saltwater. There is a warm saltwater pool nearby that is out of my prior walking range in roundtrip distance...to walk there would be quite a triumph plus i would get the swim, and I could take the bus back in case I was not feeling very good, but would try to walk back as well.
The OT is a strange experience. Afterwards I do feel better and more mobile, but it's not exactly clear why since she does only very gentle manipulations, like a very soft massage/stretch. It is for sure super relaxing, though - like an hour of quiet meditation with gentle massage. Worth it just for that really :) My mind comes up with odd images and ideas (like the saltwater one), like having a little film running in my mind - I am almost asleep, but not quite. I likely will have another appointment with her but have not scheduled one. I would like to talk with her more about some plans for returning to activity and building confidence - yoga, progressive walking increase, and the like.
I think it's easy when I'm injured or emotionally challenged for me to shut down both emotionally and physically - to become 'guarded' so that I am not experiencing things fully and aware. It is just a constant habit which I really always need to be aware of, and build in some practices to counter it. Increasingly I keep encountering situations where meditation seems to be an option that makes sense. I am so resistant to doing it daily for some reason, but it seems wise. I think that I think of it as boring, but actually my mind is quite interesting when running untethered (see reflections above). The difficult bit is to be relaxed enough that I can untether it.
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What were you expecting? |
| alexis |
Posted - 12/17/2014 : 12:29:09
So glad you're foot's doing well. It sounds like you got a lot done yesterday foot-wise so I'd guess any real injury is well on it's way to healing. (I've had to attend stand-up meetings with and injured knee and it can be a literal pain.) |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/17/2014 : 08:27:32
quote:
Not that many Rolfers around, guess you'd have to have some sadist in you to do be one.
I sometimes used to say that I thought my physical therapist was a bit of a sadist. It was funny to me because she was the nicest blond lady from the Midwest, as sweet and wholesome as could be, but she was definitely not letting anyone get away with anything.
I did very well yesterday within the parameters I'm comfortable in at the moment - stood up during a ten-minute standup meeting, ran an errand after work, set up and trimmed the Christmas tree, took the garbage out, tidied up. I was quite tired by the end and could feel my muscles trying to set trigger points out of sheer tiredness, so I'm glad I'm doing things gradually - they need time to get back in shape. Definitely some mild to moderate pain in the afternoon and evening, but I was able to remind myself that I've had the same intensity of pain many times without noticeable change in my condition and try to pay attention to other things or thinking psychological. I woke up this morning with virtually no inflammation and my foot felt really good, even less stiff than it usually does in the morning.
Funny how the basics have to be re-established. But, onward! I definitely still have a confidence barrier and a thinking barrier around doing more than I have been doing. Doing a baseline with reduced pain first is helping but eventually I will have to make the leap!
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What were you expecting? |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/16/2014 : 11:19:10
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
... I thought about something like that on the way home when I felt the catch behind my shin - I had been stood up for a Rolfing appointment (maybe it is a sign that I don't need Rolfing ) and was surprisingly angry about it, but of course had been polite and mild about it to the person who was actually there. Goodism at work
javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
Rolfing huh, I had about 90 sessions a few years back, enjoyed it--if that is possible. Guess it's part of my TMS masochistic personality. My Rolfer had really sharp elbows. Breathed the best I'd ever for a few days after, nothing like having your nostrils opened up by someone sticking their finger half way to your brain. Not to mention other orifii. Thought about doing the ten sessions again--just for grins--but it's getting really expensive. Also read Ida Rolf's book at the time--when your in that much pain, a lot of emotional stuff sure as hell can come up to the surface. Not that many Rolfers around, guess you'd have to have some sadist in you to do be one.
On that pleasant note, cheers and happy holidaze,
tt/lsmft
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| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/15/2014 : 23:09:42
That is a great story, Tom, thanks for the link. I recently re-read my own success stories, of all things, and was inspired by them. Funny what can inspire us. I am still struggling with that critical first step of moving from "I had an acute injury" to "...and now my tissue is okay again", but reviewing these stories did remind me how bad pain can be, and how great fear can be, and still be entirely TMS. Any notion that TMS cannot cause the symptoms I am experiencing, or cannot cause pain as persistent or severe - that is clearly nonsense. I am reading stories about people in wheelchairs or on crutches because they had such bad pain - I just walk funny and can't walk far.
I like what she says further down about "Other than the pain, what ELSE is bothering me?" That could be a good question for me when I am challenged. I thought about something like that on the way home when I felt the catch behind my shin - I had been stood up for a Rolfing appointment (maybe it is a sign that I don't need Rolfing ) and was surprisingly angry about it, but of course had been polite and mild about it to the person who was actually there. Goodism at work
I also just had the funniest experience of seeing my cat jump up on the couch and lose her footing a little. Suddenly my brain was like "Oh my god! What if the cat sprains her ankle?!" This was such a silly thought that I was like "Oh wow, so much of this fear is not about my actual foot." Not that it could never happen, cats do sometimes injure their feet, but it is not likely to happen from jumping up on the couch, nor it is a thing I personally would need to panic about or experience pain from. Very telling that my brain is able to transfer the panic to something totally unrelated.
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What were you expecting? |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/14/2014 : 23:49:53
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
Tom, FWIW I find you entertaining, which I take to be your goal most of the time, except occasionally when you are making a serious point about Sarno. :)
Thank you ACL, I'm working on being a TMS stand-up comedian. I'm hoping to get on the Howard Stern show with an out of work pole-dancer suffering from TMS/back-pain. I will cure her with a TMS intervention and do a follow up with a bologna toss to prove her cured.
Here's a good thread from the TMS Wiki about foot-pain:
http://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/my-tms-success-story-crippling-foot-pain-plantar-fasciitis-wrist-pain-eye-pain.5224/
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| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/14/2014 : 14:05:10
Tom, FWIW I find you entertaining, which I take to be your goal most of the time, except occasionally when you are making a serious point about Sarno. :)
I have been doing better the last few days. Mainly what I decided is that I set some thresholds on what I believe cannot damage me. Since currently I don't have unlimited confidence, I am going with what I have. I feel confident that walking ~1/2 mile at a time (up to about 2 mi per day), doing light housework, and biking ~3 miles at a time cannot do damage. Also sitting down with my feet on the floor, standing for 5-10 minutes, and miscellaneous small things.
This is basically, not pushing myself, and working to believe that these things (which I have often done without pain, but don't always do without pain) are consistently within my capacity. I sometimes do more but am not trying to unless I feel like it.
I expect if this is successful that I will keep expanding these limits til my limits are what a normal limit for someone in decent health would be (walk up to 5 mi per day, stand for an hour, bike 15 mi, for example), then perhaps work on getting in shape further.
One challenge for me is that the muscles and fascia in the left ankle are tight, and can cause some pain when trying to use them normally, if they're in the tight state. Tight doesn't indicate a pathology - it's consistent with TMS - but it does make it harder to use and move normally. So for the time being I am continuing to get some physically-oriented therapy on that. This is not consistent with Sarno, but it helps me feel better and be more confident that my tissues are ready to use fully. I am working to reframe it as assistance in helping get full use of basically healthy tissue and hope to be able to taper it off in the new year.
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What were you expecting? |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/12/2014 : 08:03:12
quote:
Originally posted by alexis
His style is your standard fare passive aggression. He doesn't expect people to be able to answer statements like "Where have you been hanging out, at the Mensa site? Honored to have you here even if it's so rarely, you really are much too smart for the Good Doctor's simple theory." That's why he uses them. "Glad to see you finally got the POINT" is an insult intended to say "You were ignorant and stupid, but even with your slowness you finally understand as much as I do." It's standard pragmatics and he knows what he's doing. Tom also knows full well that he is misrepresenting me as "bashing" Sarno, but he also knows he can get away with it because most people either don't care or don't pay enough attention to anyone else's conversation to know the history. He wants to distract and waste my time and try to maintain this one outlet that validates his ideas about himself. Whatever, it's his turf as no one else is going to bother to spend so much time here.
I must be losing my touch, I meant my tone to be sarcastic, not passive/agrressive--I better take a writing class. Not to but into you'lls thoughts on kali drivers, but I think the best explanation for them is most of them are stoned on medicinal canabis. I drive defensively assuming, everyone on the road is stoned. This will be even more so now that the in-Justice Dept. has legalized the growth of herb on Indian Reservations--well, there goes the Empire...
Cheers,
tt/lsmft
==================================================
"All my friends in Los Angeles are the sensitive type. They all have like all the diseases like Chronic Fatigue, Epstien Barr, Fibromyalgia. Like all the diseases where the only symptoms seem to be you had a really crappy childhood and at the prospect of full time work ya feel kinda achy and tired."
Posted by Skizzik @ TMSHelp from comedian Maria Bamford
"...there are so many things little and big that are tms, I wouldn't have time to write about all of them"
Told to icelikeaninja by Dr. Sarno
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| alexis |
Posted - 12/12/2014 : 07:28:39
I never thought about passive-agressive driving, but now that you mention it I think I can identify it. Since there are repercussions for true agressive driving and no real way for most people to work things out, I imagine it's more common even than passive aggressive speech (which is so particularly annoying because there are so many better alternatives). The alternative in driving seems really to be to have a broader perspective and understand there are reasons others are doing what they do, but many people will never develop that skill in any context. i will definitely be considering passive vs. passive agressive driving from now on...I think this is something my partner comments on occassionally, but without ever using the term passive-aggressive, so I hadn't thought it through.
Congrats on your raise and level bump! I read about some study or survey recently about reviews and how much everyone hates them and thinks they are relatively useless. One of the specific comments was on how you don't get feedback in a timely manner with a review only once or twice a year...so of course people go months without knowing about people being unhappy. I could imagine how just like in relationships some would wimp out and take the passive aggressive route to handling conflict. It really is the worst to deal with because there's no good way to handle a snidely intoned or phrased "It's fine" ... And you can't even fire people for this type of counterproductive attitude problem because you can't document it well enough for HR. I think the best thing would be for every teenager to learn these passive-aggressive pragmatics as part of high school psychology/social skills, and then we as a culture would be a lot less tolerant of the behavior.
Good luck with the foot. My foot issues (achilles and plantar faciitis) have responded well to stretching exercises and use, though I know there are other issues where this can damage the tendons (as in posterior tibialis ruptures). My achilles was almost certainly TMS aggravated. I picked up some magazine at the dentists office the other day which as part of a chronic pain article covered the "personailty types" associated with chronic pain (the stuff we all know already). It was interesting to see it out there in relatively mainstream media. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/11/2014 : 20:21:42
I guess I swim in a sea of passive aggression, so I just don't notice. It's seriously one of the things that makes me crazy about the local culture...I couldn't figure out drivers here until I realized that they aren't aggressive, but passive-aggressive. Not usually a driving style you hear much about. Unfortunately it infects my workplace as well even though I don't think most people are locals originally (though they may have lived here a while). That was part of what lead to my difficult time at work - people were getting upset with me, but not telling me about it, so I didn't change my behavior, so they got more upset, etc. My manager got stuck "giving me feedback". He's very diplomatic but I'm sure the inner child was not too interested in that. I was pretty mad for a while anyway.
Interestingly today I got a raise and a level up (like going from I to II in a position - not quite a promotion). So things have settled down there.
Today I tried to put my foot on the ground normally when walking or sitting, and I wore my shoe all day even though my foot was doing its low-level burn. I can't really tell if it has made much of a difference. Still trying to convince myself that all these little things can't be doing real damage. That was one place the OT I think was directly helpful. She just seemed really skeptical that aside from my initial trauma and acute recovery, I should have this level of issue with pain. Not skeptical in a bad way, like she thinks I don't, but like she thinks I don't need to. It is kind of a line between over-testing myself and over-protecting. Just trying to do small, normal things if I notice myself doing them anyway seems like a good idea though.
Oh TOM, related to your post above. The OT coded me for "arthralgia" and I noticed your quote from Dave that if it ends in algia it might be TMS. :) (She coded me for insurance purposes. I did notice that nothing she wrote down was an actual injury. I believe it was arthralgia in the ankle, acquired pelvic deformity, abnormality of gait, and something else. Basically: your ankle hurts so you stand and walk funny.)
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What were you expecting? |
| alexis |
Posted - 12/11/2014 : 10:57:31
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
Hey, I thought tom's post was okay. He has a style, just like Dave does.
His style is your standard fare passive aggression. He doesn't expect people to be able to answer statements like "Where have you been hanging out, at the Mensa site? Honored to have you here even if it's so rarely, you really are much too smart for the Good Doctor's simple theory." That's why he uses them. "Glad to see you finally got the POINT" is an insult intended to say "You were ignorant and stupid, but even with your slowness you finally understand as much as I do." It's standard pragmatics and he knows what he's doing. Tom also knows full well that he is misrepresenting me as "bashing" Sarno, but he also knows he can get away with it because most people either don't care or don't pay enough attention to anyone else's conversation to know the history. He wants to distract and waste my time and try to maintain this one outlet that validates his ideas about himself. Whatever, it's his turf as no one else is going to bother to spend so much time here.
On more interesting topics, I have a similar struggle with literalism and scientific thought and where to draw the line. I actually often make the error of treating others' beliefs as less literal than they are, because I think they couldn't REALLY believe THAT literally (and they do correct me!). And I know full well the limits of the scientific approach, and as a result those who are generally scientific like myself often seem like extremists to me, even as those who are into chakras etc. seem illogical. And yet I suspect that the me now would look at the me just three years ago and in various areas think the same of myself!
Historically despite knowing the necessary falsehoods and inventions of out realities, I have still broken the world into true and false (at least emotionally). My more recent approach has moved to seeing it all as false (emotionally rather than just intellectually). I'm not sure yet how successful it will be, but so far it is an improvement.
Yeah, I don't get traditional "symbolism" either, which is funny since metaphor in language development is one of my linguistic interests. Isn't metaphor, a necessary part of language and concept development, just a form of symbolism?
I know what you mean about the preemptive precautions. I find after an injury I do that to. On the other hand constantly testing certain injuries isn't great either, so when I have an injury it's a constant sanity check of "am I over-treating this" and I do have to know the data on that specific issue/non-issue because it isn't all the same.
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/11/2014 : 08:40:19
Alexis, I'm honored that you are dialoguing with me in a thread and not in your bio anymore. I'm happy to be a fool for Sarno 24/7. At 66, I'm happy to be referred to as "juvenile". Where have you been hanging out, at the Mensa site? Honored to have you here even if it's so rarely, you really are much too smart for the Good Doctor's simple theory.
Cheers,
tt/lsmft |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/11/2014 : 08:35:58
Hey, I thought tom's post was okay. He has a style, just like Dave does.
alexis, that's interesting that you are really focused on the issue of community shared reality and the alienation that can result if people are on totally different pages. I think that can be a very tough thing to experience, definitely a source of anger and pain.
I came to where I am pretty gradually, with tarot actually being the first thing that I was able to do that with. Yoga was helpful for me too. I had a very wise yoga teacher - she was excellent physically, and was studying to be a counselor so she had a lot of emotional insight. She really was not all that into the chakra or other stuff, but she was definitely not a literalist and read us a lot of poems and parables. We sang mantras as well and I found them comforting even though a lot of the words were kind of mystical. I didn't need to believe in Hanuman or think I had to have a guru to find strength in the story of Hanuman or sing about bowing to the great teachers. (I generally don't mind singing religious music, especially in other languages - music is one of the ways I access the transcendent anyway.) I still shake my head sometimes when I hear the things people believe but I try to pick out what seems insightful and leave the rest. At least where mysticism is concerned. With real life that's not so easy (politics).
I am a literalist in general so symbolic thinking is still not natural to me. That is actually an appeal of Sarno, or related concepts like CNMP. It's not physically generated but it's still scientific and literal. The processes they describe are physical like oxygen deprivation or amplified neural feedback. I think that a lot of people actually find this description just as mystical as the notion of 'energy' (which I believe is partially literal in that the human body as an electrochemical object clearly has an energy and activity about it) so perhaps it's just the case that my religion is science. ;)
I woke up this morning thinking about how even though I said something about all the journaling I did, there's really a lot I never covered. Some of it's a bit older, but some of it is since last year and I still just hadn't thought to consider it. Doing a little chronological inventory should give some good topics to consider. The fact that I missed all that stuff, I can see the denial operating.
In the traditional Sarno mold I am also trying some small steps. Mainly, to consider the arbitariness of when my foot acts up, as well as how I've seen the pain try to transfer into the right foot (easy when people keep telling me it must be overloaded). From there to try and sit with minor flares and not accommodate them by doing something like taking my shoe off or putting my foot up. It's such a habit that I barely notice I'm doing it most of the time! And, to sit or lie in ways I have not been, like lying on my left side with no pillow under my left leg, at least until I notice some discomfort. Basically not avoiding discomfort pre-emptively if I'm just doing something normal and relatively neutral.
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What were you expecting? |
| alexis |
Posted - 12/11/2014 : 05:46:54
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
I don't regard this kind of stuff as literal truth, but I think it can be quite interesting or illuminating to consider. It's like the questions that miehnesor asked me - a vehicle for insight.
This is an approach I believe in intellectually but with which I struggle personally so it's encouraging to see you implementing it what seems successfully. It's so easy to find the errors that make a whole system weak to the foundations, and yet systems with weak foundations offer benefits for many reasons...like drugs which work but whose mechanisms are wholy different than initially imagined. My great accomplishment this year has been not leaving Yoga claases when they discuss things like chakras (something I consider unfounded in reality). Not only that, but I no longer really care when I hear this stuff. I know that the speaker still has things to offer and that the ideas and approaches can serve a purpose even when the "reality" is in doubt...or more than in doubt. And the alienation doesn't stab at me as it once did.
But it's still hard to find the balance. Most of these folks do believe in the literal reality of their concepts, and there's still that potential for alienation as a result, on top of the old drive for logic. Sometime for me that alienation is as big an issue as the cringing I do at knowing they are literal. The human evolutionary standard of a community shared reality is out of the reach of so many of us, and learning, over so many decades, to find a good way to live with this is really for me a major focus now. |
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