| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| alix |
Posted - 03/26/2013 : 12:20:10
This is an interesting web site full of information.
http://www.bodyinmind.org/
http://www.bodyinmind.org/stress-model-of-chronic-pain-vachon-presseau/
What is astonishing however is that while all the TMS factors are covered in many articles (limbic system, amygdala, stress), there is not a word on Sarno. I saw a reference to the "back pain controversy of the 1980s" and yet no Sarno. It is like Sarno is a taboo subject and if his name was mentioned, the site would loose credibility. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 03/28/2013 : 12:19:45
Thank-you Dr. Alexander, for your post. Excellent information. |
| tmsjptc |
Posted - 03/28/2013 : 10:04:28
Dr. Alexander, thank you very much. I appreciate you answering Rik's comments. I had chosen to just ignore them but do believe they are potentially harmful to some folks, especially those who haven't reached a relatively pain-free state. I wish him well on his journey though. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/28/2013 : 06:10:10
Nice post Dr. Alexander, thanks for taking the time to contribute to this site, it's greatly appreciated. I find Rik's posts here perplexing also, one moment he's proselytizing and the next he's criticizing, he seems extremely torn. I've suggested to him several times, when he's asked for suggestions and help, that his issues probably stem from fear of aging, but have gotten no response. He just keeps starting new threads.
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TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
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| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 23:25:37
Rik- I find myself oscillating between just wanting to ignore many of your posts, and feeling the need to respond simply because other people are reading them. I fear that much of what you have to say is potentially harmful to others, as it is so loaded with cynicism and dismissal of anything which is outside your range of experience or knowledge set- as such, I feel compelled to comment, not because I think it has any chance of helping you, but it may help others. As an example, you state that becoming aware of past hurts is merely a distraction and will stall people’s recovery. I wonder how recovered you are? Do you still experience pain (physical or emotional), or has your approach got you to a pain free place? A great many people (both on and off this forum) have found psychological peace and a recovery from pain by doing exactly what you call a distraction. I have seen many of these people in my work, as did Sarno, Steve O, Nicole, etc, etc. Each day of my working life, I see people who are creating much better lives for themselves (and ultimately for their kids as well) by exploring their past experiences, and then undergoing processes which alleviates the emotional pain. This is a common and normal experience for therapists who use particular transformative approaches (but not part of the normal experience for psychologists who stick with counteracting therapies, such as CBT and its progeny- perhaps this is you?).
I am also an enthusiastic follower of Echart Tolle, and consider him to be just the most recent of enlightened beings who have been reiterating the same messages for eons. However, I am yet to meet a person (not one) who has become enlightened (as evidenced, in part, by being totally free of emotional and physical pain) as a result of reading one of his books. The enlightenment, which is the natural conclusion to living fully in the present, does not come about as a result of reading or following other people’s teachings, including Tolle’s. I have certainly seen ‘the perennial philosophy’ lighten people’s burdens (my own included), but I have never seen it result in someone becoming enlightened and ego free (and problem free) as Tolle etc appears to be. Rare people like Tolle arrive at this place via their own unique experiences in life, not through following a guru or reading a book (not that reading his books are useless- they aren’t, but they just wont result in what he has).
What I have seen repeatedly, however, is people succeeding in the far more modest goal of becoming pain free (mostly, or entirely) and (mostly, or entirely) free of psychological pain which has dogged them for their lives. It is not only possible, but it happens on a regular basis when people undergo processes which facilitate this progression. You want to call such successes a ‘placebo effect’, however this only highlights your own lack of understanding of mind/body issues, as well as your own emotional issues which manifest as cynicism and denial. I don’t have a problem with you being where you are at in your life at this moment (its your journey, not mine), but as stated, I do have a concern for the impact which this has on other people. If my recovery from 18 years of TMS pain is a placebo, then I say ‘bravo! Bring on placebos’, and perhaps others can be so lucky so as to experience their own ‘placebo effect’ (which, by the way, don’t last- I have now been pain free for around 13 years- pretty good placebo effect- ditto for my and Sarno’s patients who get and stay better).
Are people really condemned to be scared of black dogs for their whole life? I can think of a woman I worked with a few years ago. She was in her 80’s, and had been sexually abused as a child. For her entire life, she had felt dirty, unworthy, bad- these feelings were easily trigger by cues relating to her memory. Using EMDR with her, she was alleviated of these feelings, and her black dog’s bark could no longer frighten or upset her. Another placebo effect? (if so, it was one she was certainly grateful for). What would have happened to her if she had have read your posts and got the idea that exploring such experiences is merely a diversion? She would have lived her few remaining years in the same torment that she spent most of her life in. And I have seen literally hundreds of other people who have been released from the hold which distressed emotion has had on them for most of their lives. More placebo effects? There’s plenty of it going around mate.
You strike me as an evidenced-based kind of guy (well, selectively, anyway). On the basis of accumulated research evidence, EMDR was recently acknowledged and recommended by the World Health Organisation as a first line treatment for trauma. Because of its accumulated evidence, it has been accepted as having the highest level of evidence possible by most of the psychological and psychiatric associations on the planet (many –most?-of the other hundreds of available therapies have not achieved this status), all on research-based evidence, which does include methodologies which control for placebo effects.
EMDR is only one example of transformative psychotherapies which are apparently launching a reconsolidation process. It is clear that other therapeutic approaches are also effective in achieving transformation, e.g Coherence Therapy, NLP, Gestalt, etc. Just because they are outside of your range of experience does not mean they don’t exist. You may not be impressed by reconsolidation, but there are many leading neuroscientists who are, e.g Jaak Panskepp and others. These are people who are actively working in the neuroscience field. You have taken only the smallest look you can at what Ecker is saying, just enough to equip you with what you think is an ability to knock down the science behind it. This is not a scientific attitude or approach, and only displays a closed mindedness, which is not even consistent with scepticism (ie. withholding a conclusion until the evidence is in- aka- open mindedness). Still, despite the advances in imaging technology, very little is known about the brain with absolute certainty. The same is true for reconsolidation, as it is for all of neuroscience. It is clear that many psychotherapeutic approaches work- and none of them work for reasons that are clearly understood from a neuroscience perspective. This only demonstrates the incomplete state of knowledge regarding the brain, and not the inadequacy of effective psychotherapies. The study of reconsolidation is no different. In condemning this field of study, you are standing outside of what neuroscience currently knows about memory formation, and the ability to alter distressed emotions. Effective psychotherapy has been doing this for over a century; and pre-psychology, no doubt there were effective ways of doing this in traditional cultures. People like Eric report to being able to do it themselves. The neuroscience is only slowly catching up with the reality of therapeutic change; and you are way behind the game in terms of the (albeit incomplete) neuroscience. Poohoo it as much as you like- it does not change the reality that people all over the globe are being regularly helped by therapeutic processes (even though you don’t understand or endorse them).
James |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 18:54:05
Thanks, Dr. Alexander, For the first time in a long time, I feel that perhaps psychotherapy has something to offer me. In the past, before reading about the recent advances in neuroscience and the discovery of "neuroplasticity" of the brain, I thought that these neural circuits laid down by my early life experiences were unchangeable. I didn't think psychotherapy could help much because, although I would have a understanding and knowledgeable person to relate with, these memories couldn't be manipulated. I am very encouraged reading about EMDR and Coherence Therapy. I read several books about the recent advances in Neuroscience before reading your book and information on EMDR. I also read on your site the introduction to Coherence Therapy. They all seem to be very much in sync with the recent scientific advances. It made a lot of sense to me. Of course, I have some concerns like getting a therapist with whom I can relate and who has a good understanding of the topic. Perhaps I can do some phone sessions first and that can help me to decide if it will be worth it to travel for more intense therapy. |
| kalo |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 18:35:47
The trick is how do you unlock the unconcious to come to the surface..
I know what bothers me conciously, but, unconcious, I don't know...
Ugh, back to the OCD going around and around...
Kalo |
| bryan3000 |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 18:02:06
Rik,
People forget things all the time. Names, dates, directions. If the mind was wired for infinite memory, we'd have photographic memories.
Use it or lose it is real for most people, despite your example of muscle memory.
There's also part of the equation where we replace the association with something else.
So, I don't really see any real-world evidence that we're permanently hard-wired, either.
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| Ace1 |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 17:57:45
Your welcome chickenbone. Keep working , but please be patient. If I expected to get better in the time frame your looking at, I would have never recovered. Trust me, if I heard you were perfect by now, I would be suspicious. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 17:31:46
So Rik you didn't answer me before, are the practitioners who say they have had success with depth psychology methods such as Arlene Feinblatt (Dr. Sarno's therapist), our own James Alexander, Howard Schubiner, etc. etc., and their patients, just lying or wrong? It's fine to give your opinion but you make statements like "digging for repressed emotions does not work" as though you have some monopoly on truth. By the way, remind us please of your background if you would, since you seem to have a lot of medical education, thanks. |
| eric watson |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 16:45:39
Don't knock what you haven't tried
just cause you don't believe
it doesn't make it less effective
I just used it moments ago on a lady that had pain to a 10
then when we finished it was a three- she's bed- ridden
so I left the three there- shes knows now so she will find her way and finish.
no reconsolidation is not a dime a dozen
I wish it were-
we need know processes before we say that don't work
you know a lot of stuff Rik, but tell me when have you tried reconsolidation
That is the only factor that you don't get
well that and sarnos theory
and the 40 year automatic story would be the repression that would be flipped if it were allowed
let me give you one rik- 40 yrs ago that car was good to go huh
today with no up keep- it would be rust
the reconsolidation would take away the rust
then you got to go and buy the paint
paint the car real pretty,
and this old car will be running again
now rik explain this to me and if you come close- well
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| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 16:32:03
Chickenbone- you have perfectly articulated the role of the unconscious in all this, as well as personal history of traumas etc. There are ways of reconciling these realities with a focus on now, cognitive schemas etc. You are showing how this is done in a lived-in experience way; and therapists/authors like Ecker, Ticic & Hulley (Unlocking the Emotional Brian) are showing the role of this stuff in helping people to get better. Thanks for your contributions- they are very illuminating for a lot of people.
James |
| RikR |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 16:32:03
This is the basis of Ecker’s theory: Through reconsolidation, the unwanted neural circuits are unwired and cannot relapse.
First lets talk about theories in psychology – they are a dime a thousand. We in the industry want so bad to have a theory than many spend their whole lives trying to come up with one. If you are in academia you better have one if you want to keep working. Publish or perish!!
Then you explore the premise and the supporting evidence. I have seen several citations where he twists other researchers conclusions. And the whole premise of unwiring neural circuits is not found in any reputable neuroscience.
Let me give you a simple example: I used to race sports cars in my 20’s – I shifted a 6 speed many thousand times. I have not driven a stick shift in over 40 years. I took a Mini Cooper in trade for a boat last week and without hesitation I ran through the gears and double clutched just like I was back on the track. Spent a few days on the worst mountain roads I could find with great joy.
Now if you could extinct a memory circuit I would think 40 years of driving an automatic would do it. Emotional memories are not as concrete as process memories but once laid down into memory something a small as smell or a sound can bring them back from storage. If you were ever attacked by a black dog I can guarantee you that that fear of black dogs emotion can be brought back even 90 years later with the right triggers.
People with far more education and experience in neuroscience than I have looked at his theory and found it “circumstantial” at best. |
| alix |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 15:54:29
So RikR, what do you think about the reconsolidation theory from Bruce Ecker et al? |
| RikR |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 15:00:51
Strain is a cognitive driven behavior. If you want to lessen the internal stress you have to look beyond strain to see what is the root cause/belief.
This is good example why doing regressive inquiry (digging for old emotions does not work) the digging and hoping to find the “big one” is a major distraction from looking right now,today at what personality traits and beliefs you hold that cause the pain and suffering.
Trying to lessen strain without having a core understanding of the real cause is just more will power driven strain. At some point we decided (those who strain) it helped them survive or reach a desired goal.
My educational path was much the same as Ace’s – it is darn hard to survive the rigors and not strain. In fact I believe the path of medicine is one that attracts people who push and if you don’t you may not make it! I was so burnt out after graduation I lied about my education and went to work in a warehouse for 6 months to recuperate.
The epiphany of how and why we are the way we are, right now...TODAY is the Holy Grail. |
| alix |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 14:09:46
Yes Ace that makes sense. Thanks. In fact now that I think about it I had a knee injury when I was younger and the neural pathway just got reactivated. |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 13:54:01
Dear alix, please refer back to my analogy of the squeeze (stress) ball that when you squeeze it, it herniates out from the area od least resistance. Imagine if the force on the ball is very strong, well, it is likely the herniation will remain fixed where it is, but as you lessen the pressure, it is more apt to herniate anywhere where the resistance is less. As you release the pressure completely, then the ball does not deform at all. I think this is how it works in TMS. Let me know if you dont understand what I have tried to explain. |
| alix |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 12:40:10
Thanks Ace. Food for thoughts. But do you understand why my brain chose to give me "knee pain" for 30 minutes instead of my usual symptoms. That was just so random and hard to take seriously. Almost the work of a "child" trying to prank me.
Don't get me wrong, the behavioral part was huge in my recovery. I am much calmer, more attentive to others, and don't try to rush or get over things as quickly as possible.
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| eric watson |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 12:21:36
that's it ace
when the thought is broken by experiencing
a good thought at the peak of the bad
thought to distinguish the bad thought
when you try to think of it again
then the charge or bad feelings or
negative emotions to that thought is gone
if theres resistance it won't work
look at nlp decision destroyer
or the nlp white out techniques
but this is to be studied after
learning submodalities work
Guys it like this- I healed first with tms healing therapy
but I had these memories that I couldn't let go or even wanted to look at again so I learnt how to discharge negative memories
and you have to be willing ya know
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| Ace1 |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 11:22:22
Hi Alix, I have a theory of why you experienced what you did. I also on occasion if I thought of that angry child it would lessen my symptoms. I think the way it works is that it somehow takes your mind away from the intense strain thought that is habitual (lets say being in a rush for example). to something else that can capture your attention enough. Since the thought of this angry child is not yet a habit, it doesn't stay with you or reinforce the tension associated with the original strained habit. So in a way it breaks you train of though and doesn't reinforce it bc it is a different pattern of thinking. In the long run though I don't think it's as good as working on it from the other end. |
| eric watson |
Posted - 03/27/2013 : 10:50:49
Thank you chickenbone-
I mean my warrior |
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