| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| RikR |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 06:48:38
Once you have identified the repressed emotion what have you found is the best way to work with it to get it to stop expressing as TMS? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| alix |
Posted - 03/17/2013 : 16:12:12
It is funny that you mention him. When I was a kid in the 60s, my European born parents took me on a cruise from Italy to Asia.
The Italian orchestra on the ship played non stop for 2 weeks West side story. We just couldn't take it anymore:
"I like to be in America
Okay by me in America
Everything free in America"
And 20 years later, I emigrated to... America. The power of the subconscious?
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| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/17/2013 : 15:35:32
He wrote the lyrics yes. The quote is from into the woods. |
| alix |
Posted - 03/17/2013 : 15:18:49
Exactly. Sondheim? The "West side story" author? |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/17/2013 : 14:07:34
Is it always "or," is it never "and"? -- Stephen Sondheim. |
| alix |
Posted - 03/17/2013 : 13:13:32
It shouldn't be a conflict. I can testify that I got symptoms free 50% by in-depth work and the other 50% by behavioral changes in my life.
I am not the only one.
I remember that Dr.Alexander in his book gives credit to the self-help books he read after his accident in addition to the in-depth work he did later. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/17/2013 : 09:37:34
Well said Dr. James, agree with you fully! On most any other forum, stuff like that would be considered "trolling". Due to the psychological nature of the topic and the "delicate" conditions of the participants, it's more common to bash TMS fundamentals.
Maybe it's another "defense mechanism" from having to "get it", and make changes that are scary. It's akin to going to a Dodge forum and saying: "Dodge's suck, Chevys rule, (but my engine's blown up).
Cheers,
tt/lsmft |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/17/2013 : 08:49:41
James thanks for that very thoughtful post. It seems there is an endless tension here between depth psychology and cognitive behavioral approaches, and one can see it in the archoves going back years. |
| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 23:25:43
RikR. All one needs to do is refer to the research evidence. Look up the EMDR Institute website and avail your self to the evidence (including research that controlled for placebo effects). Then ask yourself why nearly every credible mental health association and authority around the world endorses EMDR as an evidence based approach with the highest level of evidence. Anyone denying the state of research evidence is simply grinding their own axe for their own reasons (and i dont see why they think other people who are suffering will benefit from this). We are all ignorant of certain things, but to choose to remain in ignorance when the evidence is available (or to deny it) is something else again.
You seem to want to deny just about everything which Sarno reports from his several decades of practice, including not only the model which he uses to make sense of his observations, but also his observations themselves. Of course, this is anyone's prerogative, but why do it on a web site which is set up to help people using Sarno's ideas? There is a whole internet out there in which you can promote your own pet theories- why use a site called TMS Help, or TMS Wiki to do this? People who are suffering from chronic pain, and learn to call it TMS, come to these sites to try and get some clarification about the TMS model and see how they may be able to apply it to themselves. There is a whole internet out there in which you and others can ridicule this approach and promote your own- in fact, most of the world will agree with you- the world is your forum already. Why use this little part of the world to try and dissuade people from an approach which they have sought out and from which they hope to benefit (and many people do benefit from it).
Your criticisms of EMDR are pretty easily addressed in reference to the evidence. But this is just part of your overall rejection of depth-psychology approached in preference to surface level cognitive approaches. Sarno's approach, the TMS approach, is all about depth-psychology. You dont have to agree with it, but nor do you have to use TMS sites as vehicles in which to ridicule the very notions which these sites were created to promote. I suspect that your posts are only adding to the confusion and despair of people who are interested in using the TMS approach to heal themselves- perhaps interfering with their healing. I dont agree with many religions in the world, nor too many political doctrines, but i dont go to their chat rooms just to try and convince them that they are wrong and that they need to follow my cosmology. This doesnt mean that i agree with them, but that i respect their right to hold their own views unmolested by mine. If they want to debate me in the big world outside of their forum, fine- thats a different matter, but i will not gate-crash their forum (or lounge room) in order to disabuse them of their false beliefs. They have a right to their beliefs and their forum, unmolested by me. I think it would be a good idea for people who are wanting to disagree with most of Sanro's main tenants to ask themselves why they are engaged in this forum? Surely there are other chronic pain forums out there that dont reflect the depth-psychology approach of Sarno? There must be- yours is the majority view (in a world where between 1/3 and 1/6 people are suffering from chronic pain- could there be a relationship between these two facts?).
James |
| alix |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 18:54:09
quote:
With a placebo people relax and when they relax the parasympathetic system engages and they heal themselves.
...but please don’t pay a lot of money for these things
I don't dispute that and I don't particularly care at this point. I am symptoms free. Maybe your education is an impediment to healing. I question however your motivation for asking a question and blasting the suggestions offered to you in response.
But let's discuss cost. I spent $50,000 (out of pocket) on an experimental pudendal nerve surgery by a top UCLA neurosurgeon that left me bedridden for 3 months in extreme pain and distress.
In contrast, I spent $280 on 2 NET sessions and bought a few books on iTunes that helped me recover from a 10 year nightmare. |
| RikR |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 16:44:37
I have been around long enough to see these “Novel” therapies like EFT and EMDR have be shouted from the roof tops only to fade into oblivion. Primal Scream, EST, Encounter, Rebirthing, TFT, Rorschach test and more are in the dump next to 9-track tapes.
Anytime you have a faulty premise all the following conclusions are in question. When Gary Craig “invented” EFT he based the premise on it working on “Subtle Energies” also known as energy meridians or Chi. This theory came from acupuncture – here is where the EFT premise of blown!!
Four randomized, double blind controlled scientific studies found that poking patients with tooth picks and not with needles was as, or more effective than real acupuncture treatments: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1897636,00.html
So if acupuncture does not work then the premise of EFT fails the basic premise test.
Remember when president Nixon went to China and saw a man operated on with only acupuncture –that was the first “China Gotcha” one of the Chinese doctors that later fled to the USA reported he was heavily medicated. Dr. Andrew Weil never had any training in EFT and was reported to “teach” a student how to tap to treat a headache. The student said the headache was better and Dr. Weil reported that he just randomly “tapped around somewhere” When he disclosed this to the student the headache came back.
If you want to engage some critical thinking you might want to read the book: Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud
In his new book The Placebo Effect in Clinical Practice, psychiatrist Walter Brown of Brown University writes that “the history of medical/psychological treatment is largely a chronicle of placebos. When subjected to scientific scrutiny, the overwhelming majority of treatments have turned out to be devoid of intrinsic therapeutic effectiveness; they derived their benefits from the placebo effect.
Back in 2010 I was facilitating community mental health groups and we invited EFT and EMDR teacher sto our groups. These were people teaching others the practice not practitioners...these were the experts. The treated members for free for two months. During that time a few people reported benefits. Within a few months none maintained the benefits.
I believe it all boils down to the patients expectations and belief. In my practice people with anxiety carried Xanax in their pockets for years and never took one. If you asked them to dispose of them their anxiety went way up. I did placebo trials in college and saw people get major relief from a sugar pill or a suggestion.
With a placebo people relax and when they relax the parasympathetic system engages and they heal themselves. So use what ever works for you but please don’t pay a lot of money for these things – remember the old saying....
“A rube is born every minute and two are waiting in line to take their money”
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| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 15:13:12
pspa123. EFT does sound pretty goofy, unless you look at it from a neurological and exposure therapy point of view if you are scientifically minded- people who are not often settle for the energy and meridian way of making sense of it as per traditional Chinese medicine. TCM may be valid, but whatever it is, it doesnt seem to be based on or verifiable by science (may be a limitation of science?). I'd suggest you listen to a Shrink Rap Radio podcast interview by David Feinstein on Energy Psychology- he discusses some of the research behind it.
Also, whoever mentioned it was correct- Sarno did not refer to CBT practitioners as, like physical therapy, he observed that this is not the type of psychology which creates changes that address chronic pain. Like physical therapy, CBT (and its derivatives) may be useful for a range of other problems, but not chronic pain. CBT etc is viewed as a counteractive therapy. i,e one in which the symptoms are controlled, kept in check, worked against. Sarno's observation, after having worked with more people in chronic pain than the rest of the world combined, was that depth-psychology approaches work at eradicating pain which is more resistant to change than mere information will move.
There are many types of depth-psychology to choose from. They are often (but not always) transformative approaches, whereby the (if successful) the person no longer has to work at anything for 1 month or 3 months or 6 months or the rest of their lives. The problematic emotions have been transformed and no longer need to be counteracted with affirmations or drugs or anything else. Sounds too good to be true, but listen to Shrink Rap Radio interview with Bruce Ecker and you will get just a glimpse of what is actually possible (and regularly occurs in the context of transformative therapies). And yes, these therapies do require that people revisit their past- not ignore or deny it or try and move on (the moving on quite naturally happens when reconsolidation has occurred). These processes and therapies are well known, available and effective- and highly suited to working with chronic pain.
James |
| alix |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 11:38:09
I just updated my message with "programmed dreams". Try it. It is amazing for recalling emotional conflicts.
I still think EFT is goofy. I could never get into that set-up sentence. But FasterEFT makes much more sense to me. It gets really to the core of what you are trying to accomplish.
You can also try the self-administered EMDR video above. There seems to be more science around it so it may resonate with you. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 11:26:52
Interesting. I will confess to being at the stage where it does seem like goofy new age nonsense, but I will check out the video as I know some reputable people are in the EFT camp. |
| alix |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 11:15:50
Hi pspa. Just a bit of background. I initially thought EFT was the most goofy new-age nonsense. But then I had a couple of NET sessions where the practitioner finds repressed memories and then applies some sort of EFT to erase the noxious effect. It worked great.
I looked for practices that resembled what she did and stumbled on FasterEFT that was very close.
I did it for a couple of months. I used the stuff that I had been journaling and just went down the list doing what is in the video I just posted. So I can recall all the negative memories now and there is no emotion attached to them. I feel completely indifferent.
That did not make me pain free but the pain would cycle abruptly, so I knew that something was happening and I was getting somewhere. It is only when I adopted the "no thinking" technique (we discussed in another thread) that I really experienced longer and longer periods of symptom-free bliss.
Let me mention also programmed dreams that are in Steve-O's and Dr.Alexander's books.
You tell yourself 10 minutes before drifting to sleep that you would like to dream about an event that is bothering your subconscious. You will get incredibly vivid dreams about it. I remember them easily. Your dreams are a great source of unresolved emotional conflicts that are EFT material.
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| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 11:01:13
quote:
Originally posted by alix
You can try EMDR or EFT. Dr.Alexander makes a good case for those practices in the context of TMS.
I personally used FasterEFT and was successful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnTwiQY2hcM
It is not only Dr.Alexander that recommends EFT or EMDR. I am reading the Bruce Ecker book on Coherence Therapy and he also mentions EFT and EMDR.
Can you describe your experience in a little more detail? Such as how long you did it, what the improvements were, etc.? |
| alix |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 10:57:54
chickenbone, you can use the following video for self-administered EMDR.
It is really great:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkdh5dVksw |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 10:41:54
I have done extremely well with EFT on myself to de condition myself from some very stressful situations that I often encounter. It has helped me with sudden TMS symptoms, health anxiety, and sleep anxiety, to name a few. I even use some eye movement techniques from EMDR. I am thinking of getting EMDR therapy from a qualified practitioner. |
| alix |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 10:22:56
You can try EMDR or EFT. Dr.Alexander makes a good case for those practices in the context of TMS.
I personally used FasterEFT and was successful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnTwiQY2hcM
It is not only Dr.Alexander that recommends EFT or EMDR. I am reading the Bruce Ecker book on Coherence Therapy and he also mentions EFT and EMDR. |
| RageSootheRatio |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 08:08:53
The best way(s) for me have been:
1. to journal about it, using a very specific form I learned from Emotional Brain Training, which is to journal (or say out loud alone, or to another person) the WHOLE "flow of feelings" (Anger, Sadness, Fear, Guilt) so that one does not get STUCK in one particular feeling, and then to identify the cognitive aspects such as the unreasonable expectations / beliefs and then to come up with something more cognitively empowering.
2. Just to express the feelings ... for example, if I am sad, then to cry.
3. Sometimes just identifying the issues in a long list and feeling the feelings about it.
I think this is a case of "it really DEPENDS" though .. if it is a "survival circuit" sort of "repressed emotion" ... ie a VERY deep issue (such as you have mentioned on other threads) and THAT is spawning a whole lot of other stressful situations and emotions, then it will need something different than a more superficial repressed emotion.
In that case, I have found the most success in an even more gentle approach, such as I learned from Emotional Brain Training, which starts with just a time (could be several months or more) of just BEING with and SEEING the issue and feeling the feelings around it (the ones I can tolerate) without trying to change the behavior(s) around it ...
So I think there are varying types of "repressed emotions" and need different approaches (and also one which is customized for the individual). Those are just some of the things that have been helpful to me from time to time. - RSR |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 08:07:34
Shawn as a static concept that may be true but in therapy or perhaps even on their own people can unmask what has been hidden. That is, as I understand it, why Sarno referred many people to therapists who did depth psychology. I could be wrong but I dont believe he referred people for CBT. But as I always say I think there are many approaches and different ones may work for different people. |
