| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| cnotes11 |
Posted - 02/29/2012 : 01:15:30
I've written on here a couple times before and usually gotten good responses, so I thought I'd try again.
I'm assuming that most people here have experienced some type of chronic health problem of one type or another. Mine happens to be back pain which has gone on for 7 years. I am doing what I can to help myself and have hope for the future, but at times the present moment gets quite difficult.
I am wondering if there is anything other members would suggest to do when frustration and pain seem to reach a breaking point? I typically just fall apart and then try to pick myself up a couple days later. If you have chronic pain you know what I'm talking about. Its the times where you feel that simply not existing would be much better than the current state of things. And I dont mean this in as depressing a way as it probably sounds. Just a simple statement of fact.
I've thought about posting this to some other support groups but find so many of them to be self pitying and energy sucking. I'm not looking for pity...I am just hoping someone knows what I'm talking about and can offer something of use.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post.
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cnotes11 |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 21:25:23
@ Bryan3000 - Fair enough. I watched an interview with Dr. Dispenza last night. Hes got some good stuff to say and I like his scientific approach to things. Don't always get that when you start talking about energy or "being", subconscious, etc.
I will need to watch more to really nail down what it is hes advising people to do, but thanks for the tip, looks to be another good source of information.
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| bryan3000 |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 16:41:43
Cnotes,
Thanks much. I'm improving slowly. Again, I've got a physical issue due to a bad drug reaction that I'm overcoming, but I think that's nearing an end and I'll just be dealing with my organic, underlying issues of anxiety/panic.
The subconscious issue is an interesting one. Hillbilly gives great advice, and essentially believes tinkering with it is wasting time. I freely admit to having some interest in it, as the cause of my issues have been elusive and I've generally gotten back to all normal activities myself. (Outside of heavy sports and weights, which I miss and love and hopefully is up next.)
So, I'm in that category of people Hillbilly talks about who very well may not be well enough to offer advice! All I can say is, I have made progress... my understanding is way up and it's mostly due to learning that the symptoms aren't dangerous and trying to live life.
That said, I do think my issue also may be more below the surface. But, even if it is... like Dispenza says, your subconscious reacts to what you're DOING... how you're BEING. If it believes you're sick and in constant danger, I assume it's going to continue to prepare the way for self "protection" via chemicals, bodily pains, etc. So, even if our problem IS subconscious... there's a good argument to be made that affecting this area of the brain can be done through our conscious actions and thoughts. The limbic system is in constant communication with the front brain and its setting is determined by the feedback it receives.
Basically what I'm saying is.... you may be right, but Hillbilly may be right as well.
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| cnotes11 |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 00:41:27
Also if you hear/see yourself in some of my posts I am very sorry. I wish you better health in the future. |
| cnotes11 |
Posted - 03/05/2012 : 00:38:14
@ Bryan3000 -- Another person who responded was telling me I needed to go about business as usual like I had no pain. The bit about quitting work along with the other things I listed to meant to show that I am trying to do this. Travel is something I've wanted to do and didnt want to let pain stop me. I guess without the full context that could be confusing.
You are partially right about the other stuff. I'm probably a bit stubborn..yes at times its hard feeling like you've got no control...and the pain hasn't become my personality so much as my entire life.
About the letting go part...I think I've made some progress with this in a general life sense. But when it comes to the experience of physical pain I dont know how/haven't succeeded yet at letting go. Pain necessitates attention and even if I don't mean to "have it under a watchful eye".. is what happens when it gets bad enough. And yes I am constantly searching for a solution. I can't not. Where I am right now is simply too uncomfortable. I dont think much of that is in line with acceptance..but thats how it is for me at the moment.
No I have not read either of those people, I'll add them to my list to check into. I'm not laughing at Tony Robbins believe me. If Jim Jones was holding a weekend seminar and I thought It would help I'd go.
I think everyone is trying to change something about themselves right? I of course am, 7 years of pain ages 18-25 goes a long way in getting your attention to the fact something about your life or yourself as a person is not working.
But as I alluded to above I feel a bit stuck with the conscious/subconscious thing. The quote is interesting, I'll have to investigate that author further. |
| bryan3000 |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 18:12:24
Cnotes,
Just thought of you when I heard a great line by Joe Dispenza...
"... your subconscious mind responds to who you're BEING."
It's a very deep statement, imo. You'll have to listen to some of his stuff for it to make more sense... but there's a lot to it, imo.
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| bryan3000 |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 10:33:26
Cnotes
When you say you quit your job, how were you relating that to ignoring pain? Just curious and I'm probably not reading it correctly.
You sound very stubborn, by the way. Just like me! :)
I bet you internally hate the notion of going through your day and not mentioning your pain to someone, or at least being on guard about it. ( Jusy like me. )
I'll bet this pain has become your personality, despite your efforts to continue on normally. (Just like me)
I'll bet that you believe there is an answer to all of this that you'll find if you keep searching for it tirelessly. (Like me)
I'll bet that you fear letting go of the situation for fear it might get worse if not under your constant, watchful eye. (Yep, like me!)
I'll also bet you don't really not like having some control in situations.
Maybe I'm off base, but I hear a lot of myself in your posts. My main problem has been anxiety, with back pain a distant second. I've also had some actual physical healing to do from drug withdrawal a a result of prescription meds. (Lightly used, never abused)
Coping with pain, and changing my brain have been my focus as of late. Acceptance and yet restructuring. Have you read Claire Weekes, listened to Joe Dispenza? Even inspirational speakers like Tony Robbins? (Dont laugh, his work is based in solid science.)
Mala mentioned changing who you are in another thread. Would you say you're attempting to do so?
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| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 11:03:21
that book just plopped on my doorstep too, looking forward to cracking it and we can tawk abaddit!
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 01:56:35
Hi Cnotes11,
Sorry to hear you're not making progress, well wherever you go there you are and your TMS backache comes along. I recommend you read a new TMS book by Steven Ray Ozanich, "THE GREAT PAIN DECEPTION". I'm just cracking into it and it looks to be chock full of useful TMS information written by someone who's been there for many years and broke through.
Cheers,
tt |
| cnotes11 |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 21:39:28
@hillbilly - This may sound a bit blasphemous being on the TMS forum and all. But I am only partially on board with what the idea of TMS, and how it is presented in Sarno's books.
First a major criticism that has to be leveled is the books make it sound easy, when in fact its not. As people on here have said and is clearly evidenced through my own experience its a process. The book makes it sound is if simply knowing is enough and groundbreaking results are sure to follow.
Second I struggle around the idea of conscious thought vs. subconscious imprinting as the core of the problem. Maybe I've missed something but don't see a clear distinction between the two in regard to TMS. To me working with therapists, practicing positive self talk, flip switching or learning to deal with fear/anxiety are all great but they don't seem causal. It doesn't appear to be the root. I'm sure many people can get something through this cognitive/behavioral type approach. But it just doesnt seem to cut it for me. At least so far anyway.
This is why I say that I am only partially on board with the TMS school of thought. Its left me feeling abit at sea, because I think that my problem is subconscious and don't see any clear indication on how to approach that. I've had to look elsewhere -- and when it comes to "changing your subconscious mind" it seems to be a minefield as far as finding quality is concerned.
I've done exactly what I want to do with little thought to how I feel physically for a long time now. I've quit my job, moved 3,000 miles away from home, done systemic exercises on approaching my fear and come a long way in terms of caring what others think of me. Essentially told everyone to jog on and done exactly what I would do if I was dying + plus anything and everything thats been recommended to me for TMS. Close to a year later I feel about the same as when I paid chiros hundreds of dollars a month to "help" me.
It still all feels like fiddling around on the surface. I think what I'm going for is something akin to what Eckhart Tolle refers to as the "pain body". Unfortunately when you start trying to address years if not lifetimes of emotional garbage you are certainly not looking at a quick fix. I guess i've gone on abit of a tangent..but maybe someone else feels the same way I do when it comes to conscious/subconscious? or maybe I am completely wrong and just dont know it. If someone wants to tell me i've misunderstood something about TMS or how to deal with it I am all ears.
Either way I appreciate your and everyone else's perspective(s) and wish you all the best too. |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 09:23:44
cnotes,
I went through a terrible time with pain and anxiety about six-seven years ago. During my recovery, I investigated diagnoses and treatments at the speed of light, saw tons of doctors, therapists, etc. just like you describe.
I was told by a very insightful therapist whose experience with anxiety-related illness and inertia that I was suffering from intense rejection of myself and the world as I saw it fitting around me, which is to say that I was excessively egocentric and all the problems I saw with the world were that it didn't comport with my definition of how it "should be" or how I "should be." It wasn't until this realization that it is illogical and in direct violation of the laws of nature, God's plan, or however you term it to spend your life like this that I began to change little by little.
Here's a primer for you from my notebook: Fear is nothing more than a message from your brain to your body that something you are encountering is labeled "dangerous." It may be actual, physical danger, or it may be reputational. More than likely it is reputational. By that I mean, you are perceiving social hurts and rejection as a consequence of what you want to do, so you choose not to. This is how avoidance creeps in to your life like a morning fog that won't burn off. I double underlined this: You can't begin to conquer your fear until you realize what it is that you fear.
Your symptoms are what you fear currently. They are what serve as your excuse for non-participation in whatever your chosen activities would be if they weren't present. But your symptoms, if fear/sressed based, are not dangerous at all. What you really fear is what will happen to your reputation if you undertake the things you wish to do in a way that brings satisfaction. Some people fear failure. Others fear success. You have to sort this out for yourself. Some people, because of how they view others, revisit their judgments on themselves as they perceive themselves if they were successful and choose not to dive passionately into something because it might cause them to be disliked by jealous onlookers. Again, reputational dangers are seen and understood almost subliminally in our world. Oh my God, if I passed out in the mall, what would people think? Oh my God, if I limped disheveled into the grocery store and saw Mr. Givens, he might tell Mr. Baumgartner that I looked bad and must be suffering because I couldn't carry on a lucid conversation. On and on and on. The mind just goes like a wild river.
I don't know what dragons you foresee having to slay when you step out of your comfort zone, but I know for certain that slaying them is impossible if you don't attempt to go back, as Dr. Sarno, Dr. Weekes, Dr. Low, me, Baseball65, balto, and others repeatedly exhort you to, to DOING WHAT YOU WANT TO DO AND PAYING NO ATTENTION TO HOW YOU FEEL PHYSICALLY. You want comfort, and that's understandable, but you can't strike your muscles with fear at every turn and expect them to perform well in any circumstance. That has to be relearned.
I have come to the belief that social anxieties are the most destructive power unleashed upon the world, and a lot of what has been labeled alternately as TMS, irritable bowel syndrome, fibromyalgia, etc. has little at all to do with emotional repression and more to do with the constant CHOICE to avoid doing what we can to be successful and productive due to what others think. Even if repression is indeed the cause, beneath that is the choice to hold in anger and fear because of the fear of what others will think if it were expressed.
So what do you do at the end of your rope? Tie a knot, hang on, and keep swinging. Pay attention closely to the internal arguments and see if you can't spy the imagined reputational monster playing a prominent role. Then realize that he isn't real, your symptoms aren't dangerous at all, and that you have no excuse left but to go back to living a full, albeit imperfect, life.
All the best!
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
| cnotes11 |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 08:47:33
@ wavy soul - I think so. You use different words and method of phrasing -- but in effect what your saying is that I'm trying to do. Through meditation and a couple other avenues...but its not easy.
The part I'm struggling with isn't so much what to do, but what to do until something changes. At the moment what I am doing hasn't alleviated the symptoms. So I was simply looking around for thoughts on how to deal with the mounting frustrations of not being able to sleep at night, trying to function normally and being depressed by the pain when nothing seems to be changing. Its like some bad joke that get played on you every day without an end in sight.
And this might not be as good talking with "other living breathing humans" but for me its something, and for the moment all thats available to me.
@baseball65 - thanks for expanding on your post. I can imagine going to a parents grave would have that effect. I will keep trying, but I dont think theres all that much logic to something like this. Maybe at some point I will just have it happen naturally, I guess that would be ideal. I don't know, I'm rambling now.
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| bryan3000 |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 23:40:33
Wavy, holy cow that was awesome. Thanks !
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| Darko |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 21:44:23
Wrldtrv, check this out....I didn't give you the complete story. This is taken from the site
http://5htpbenefits.info/
"1. 5-htp can help you feel less anxiety and depression. If one of your goals is experiencing a happier state of mind, taking a 5-htp supplement may bring you a step closer. Numerous clinical trials have shown that 5-htp can be an effective treatment for anxiety and depression symptoms, and in some instances has compared favorably to prescription antidepressants.
5-htp’s effectiveness in alleviating anxiety and depression is all about the neurotransmitter serotonin, which is considered largely responsible for mood regulation and the perception of discomfort and pain. Because 5-htp is its chemical precursor, taking a 5-htp supplement amounts to giving your brain more of the material it needs to increase the serotonin levels in your brain. For many, that means better moods and less anxiety. However, it’s important to note that just taking 5-htp isn’t a magic fix; you need to take some responsibility for your mental state, and take steps to direct your thoughts and feelings in ways which will benefit you.
Most people using 5-htp to lessen anxiety and depression take between 50 and 300 mg daily. Some people obtain better results while taking a lower dose, so it’s a good idea to start with 50 mg and add more over time if necessary. For maximum absorption, 5-htp should be taken with or shortly before a meal, with a full glass of water. Don’t take more than 200 mg of 5-htp at a time unless your doctor specifically directs you to do so." |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 20:12:31
"But I try not to hold a grudge."
Cnotes, that was your quote referring to chiros who wasted your time and money and maybe made you feel worse. Maybe a little too forgiving? Remember Sarno's "goodist" and "perfectionist" referring to the typical TMS personality.
I think another thing that helps is sharing with others. This forum is great, but really, nothing beats having living, breathing humans to confide in. I know this to be true for myself. On those rare occasions when I can share my true feelings in person with the right person or persons, I can immediately go from the pits to paradise in a few minutes. Both physically and mentally.
Darko, thanks for the clarification about those supplements being only for depression. Actually, anxiety and rumination are much bigger issues for me. |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 09:42:00
Well... back when I was in LA It was always therapeutic to go to my Fathers grave (He died when I was 5)
Books: East of Eden, The Green Mile,Winter of our discontent (actually precipitated my divorce) The dead zone... I could actually turn this into a long list, but it's any sort of book where there is Loss and pain.
Movies: Saving Private Ryan, Requiem for a dream, Leaving Las Vegas... same sort of thing.
I guess it's a personal thing. You have to inspect your life and see what resonates with you... all of us have some sort of sorrow. It's what fuels our spiritual growth.(Or kills us)
I did just get divorced, and I'll tell you... not having to put on a show for someone else is quite liberating. In fact I am almost hedonistically criminal again...
That whole 'guys shouldn't cry' thing is a crock and a half. I'm 5'9,155-160 in athlete shape, tattoos and body piercings everywhere,Long hair with the Led Zeppelin T-shirt and the bandana...... Most people tell me after they know me 'man, you look like a bad ass'.... which is really funny, because I'm NOT! I'm the biggest people-pleasing-brown-nosing-kiss-ass-mommy-please-love-me wreck you could imagine.
But I KNOW it, so I've got the edge over TMS
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| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 08:43:15
At the end of my rope I decide to go just a bit further, beyond the rope.
What I mean by this is that rather than resisting the impending meltdown I embrace it. In fact I copyrighted the word Meltdown in 1995 for a spiritual psychological process which I teach in my work as therapist and seminar leader. A short, written version, which I've talked about here from time to time is this:
--separate the thoughts from the sensations/feelings
--they are in a bad, entangled marriage and need a time out from each other
--with the thoughts, change them immediately to something much better - in fact go as high as you can - from "I'm hopeless" to "I'm inevitably returning to perfect health like it or not" for example
--with the feelings and sensations, welcome them, don't resist them, breathe into them and follow them down their little body tunnels like a hunter or pakman mouth that just wants to travel around your whole body, or the field of awareness of the feeling, and eat them all up for lunch, yum yum - like a pig enjoying rolling in ****
--these sensations are just stuck energy, and your loving attention to the little bundles or knots of stuckness releases the energy back into circulation
--you have to breathe in a continuous fashion while doing the above (there's a lot to this, but any kind of conscious breathing is better than none)
--there is more to it - I teach it over a weeklong retreat, but I hope the above may be helpful.
What DOESN'T work is to mix up thoughts and feelings. Like when someone says: I feel as though I have a serious illness. NO! That is a thought, entangled with some of your core fear or anger, having a solid fearful baby together. Abort! Together they have ever-mo-entangled babies called ego and subconscious mind that goes on forever and which you can NEVER get out of. So you can think you are "feeling your feelings" when really you are strengthening a thought/ sensation chemical pathway in your body-brain
Here is a take-home part of it: CHANGE THOUGHTS RADICALLY AND ALWAYS (IN THE MIND USING CONSCIOUS CHOICE)
FEEL (AS THEY ARE - DON'T CHANGE) THE FEELINGS IN THE BODY
Don't pander to your thoughts like they are poor lil inner children - they are not, they are just thoughts. Don't override the sensations in the body - they need to be entered and felt in order to complete themselves. But you have starved them of mental meaning by changing the thought. So they can easily resolve energetically.
Does this make sense?
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| cnotes11 |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 07:59:22
@baseball65 mind sharing your laundry list?..It is a subjective thing no doubt, but ive tried various approaches and haven't been able to get through the "men shouldn't cry" conditioning.
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 07:23:55
quote:
Posted - 02/29/2012 : 02:49:39
Hey mate,
I have been there plenty myself. Used to hope I just didn't wake up some days. I can't give you everything in this post but I'll give you a couple of bits of gold. Have yourself a really big cry....I mean really let it out. You should be choking and coughing you're crying so hard.....this helped me and it was only through the fact that I had a massive breakdown that I found this helped. Try getting really angry also, feel the rage pumping through your body....really get the emotion running and sit in it for as long as you can, it will be uncomfortable
Next, take a look at all the thoughts going on in your head. At the time my thoughts were VERY negative and this just causes you negative emotions. Hopelessness, frustration, depression, sadness, victimization and bitterness to name just a few.
One thing I can, hand on my heart, promise you is that it's not as bad as you think it is....and I really get how bad your situation appears to you. You have to understand that the mind is one MASSIVE BS producing drama machine....and your mind is making the situation much much worse than it really is!! Re-read that paragraph cause it's so important. Get control of your thoughts as best you can, ignore the negative stuff, it's not true, they're just thoughts.
Couple of other things that really helped was to get my energy levels up so I could "fight the fight" in my head and not let life push me around. Vital greens and Colloidal minerals will help with that....and eat heaps and heaps of veggies. Trust me on veggies thing. When you're low on energy the emotional breakdowns seem to come much easier
Good luck mate....you'll be fine many of us have passed through this ugly place, it's only temporary
Try and laugh more, look up funny stuff on youtube daily.
D
quote:
Marijuana and magic mushroom are natural too! :)
LOL and so is diacetylmorphine...aka Heroin. It's just a flowers' residue with two bound amino acids
(ba duhm-CRASH) but seriously folks.
Darko's answer was epic. After a decade doing this stuff (and it works every time) I have a laundry list of
1. Things that can elicit a crying meltdown aka. certain films, books,etc.
2.Reading the same damn books over again and reviewing the ten thousand notes in the margins (usually a new episode means I accidentally fell asleep)
3. FULL ON RAGE OUTS. Baseball bats to furniture... superhard workouts alone in the gym cussing like a sailor with tourettes. Usually the quicker I deal with it the sooner it disappears. It's funny how it 'creeps' up on you sometimes.
4. The day I get the big Buddah laugh because it tries to go somewhere else....which means, it's going,going,gone
you guys rule.
BB65 |
| balto |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 05:33:24
quote:
Originally posted by Darko
Both are natural...
Marijuana and magic mushroom are natural too! :)
I have a friend who suffer badly from depression. I'll tell him about this. Thanks Darko. |
| Darko |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 05:16:30
Wrldtrv, search the forum as I have posted about them quite a bit. Only useful to you if you're suffering a bit of depression, also helps calm you. Studies show it works as well if not better than the chemical stuff when it comes to depression. The body takes 5HTP and turns it into serotonin, but uses L-Tyrosine (amino acid) in the process.
Both are natural...
You'll sleep heaps better when taking it also.
I get it from Vitacost.com...very cheap
D
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