| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| mala |
Posted - 01/24/2010 : 18:44:45
Things have been bad for me. My back pain has now extended into hip pain and knee pain and I have also got a bunion. This is all on the same side- the left. I can't sit too long nor can i walk but ism still not giving up. I'm in bangkok at the moment & trying to walk around as much as I can but it's hard work. The pain is constant.
Yesterday i felt a little pain in my right toe area and this morning I see a slight bump/redness - the beginnings of a bunion on my other foot.
I am mortified & very very frightened. My body seems to be falling apart & I can't seem to do anything about it.
If it is Tms how can it be manifesting itself like this so physically so fast?
I am not on any drugs right now but I am doing some physical workout for my bone density.
I a seeing a spine specialist today to rule out anything sinister but now I don't know what to do & where to go from here.
My whole left side is screwed & now my right side is going too.
Has anyone had a similar experience?
Any thoughts would help me a lot right now. I feel so alone .
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| winnieboo |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 09:27:23
quote:
I was looking up adhesions & low back pain and came across this link.
I wouldn't go there! |
| skizzik |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 08:10:00
What about that anger your perhaps holding in? It would be interesting to see if you just started typing and a lot of emotions poured out, and you got a reduction in pain. I had a similar experience lately, and I want to see if someone else has that too.
Start typing perhaps, you don't have to post it, you can delete it right away. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 08:07:27
all I know is that there is this woman at my wife's work who suffers from real bad low back pain. 30ish, car accident, I think just a distectomy was done. She claims she was glad she had it, but the pain is still bad.
Seems to be a typical cycle. Some relief after surgery, but it creeps back. Then she explores fusion, puts that aside, and goes into the female trouble route. She then is diagnosed with uteris whatever, and fibroids, and was told she is probably having the pain from them. She has a hysterectomy I think, and of course, pain still there, and is currently on disability recovering from her, you guessed it, fusion.
I'm looking forward to her rtn to work, if ever, so I can ask my wife how she is doing.
I'm no expert on the uteris stuff, but thats the thought I had when you posted that link. |
| mala |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 05:23:26
I was looking up adhesions & low back pain and came across this link.
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Back--Neck/low-back-pain-from-adhesions/show/5804
Any thoughts. Surely this can't be tms.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| catspine |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 18:16:10
That's alright Mala let it all out until there is no more tears...and then laugh when it's all done!
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| mala |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 17:36:54
I just woke up after a terrible night in which my stomach & fists were clenched & I didn't want to get out of bed this morning.
I have just checked all the responses to my post last night and I am overwhelmed by the time you have all taken to write to me and for your kindness & quick response. There is a lot of good advice that I will look at bit by bit.
Right now I am sobbing uncontrollably coz I'm very emotional.
Thank you all. will write later.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| skizzik |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 16:02:01
aww heck, for sh-tz and giggles mala, lets go back to Sarno 101. Of the thousands of patients Sarno had, he made the correlation that the number one attribute of tms symptoms was an inability to exhibit the emotion of anger.
Well, who do you wish you could lash out at and put in thier place? And after you did, they would in our perfect world change for the better and not stress you out anymore and then understand you were just a human expressing their anger and not hold it against you and still love ya. |
| catspine |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 15:50:31
Mala
Chances are the pain is constant because it is fueled by the fear.
Please don't forget that plenty people happen to recover from big problems everyday and actually you want to be one of them and that's where your strength is.
You're going through the most difficult part at this time which is to make the best decision now that you have the results of the tests and the doctors opinions and a better understanding of the situation.
So if this is not only TMS in this situation I would address this as a decision making problem only for now and I would deal with it as with a third person in order to remove the emotional aspect out of it simply makes it easier to think or to choose.
For example :
How would you do this suppose it wasn't for you ? Where would you take this person if you were willing to help?, What would you recommend? What practical piece of advice would you give, Where would you find the most accurate information you need? How would you talk or listen? How much can this person take? How to improve her mood? and so on...
The great advantage of this technique is that it may reveal other options that you have not thought about yet because your mind is likely to be focused on the danger. Speaking of which, the danger is always there no matter what : if you eat you may choke or if you walk you may fall and yet we do that everyday...it's just part of the equation.
Once you've done that to the best of your abilities with or w/o help then see how your list would work for you.
Instead of asking your doctor or reading about the possible side effects online try to find out what to do about these side effects in order to put the best chances on your side or find how to promote your recovery if you proceed with surgery.
Once you've made a decision (what ever your decision is) everything will fall into place and you 'll go through with it knowing it is the best you can come up with and chances are it will be plenty good enough.
If you beat it once you can surely do it again. |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 15:45:31
Hi Mala,
I think your first priority right now is to take a step back and take some time out.
You're not going to be able to make any rational decisions the way you're feeling right now, so the first thing is to try and get some calm into your mind.
I know this is easier said than done, and I'm not saying you should magically transform from a state of anxiety into a perfect Zen-like state.
Just try and do it little by little. Use whatever aids you find useful to help you relax, e.g. listen to music, find a quiet place to sit, have a calming drink, ask your husband to sit with you and hold your hand / put his arm around you.
Allow yourself to wallow in self-pity and be afraid, but from time to time find a tiny bit of resource within yourself to allow yourself to calm down. Do some slow breathing and try and focus your mind just on the breathing. Whenever you notice your mind go back into anxiety mode, just bring it gently back to yourself and your breathing.
I think I'd better go off and follow my own advice now! ;-)
Hilary N |
| winnieboo |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 11:54:24
quote:
Doctor recommends to have the cyst removed for pathology. He also says that the uterus is enlarged and retroverted which means it's tilted backwards. I asked if it was possible that this was causing more than usual back pain and he said possibly but can't say definitely. the ligaments attaching the uterus to the back could be inflammed. Since I am menopausal he suggested that i might want to have a hysterectomy.
i have been researching and looking for more info on hysterectomies.
I am disturbed by some of the side effects mentioned one of them being back pain can you believe.
Hi Mala,
I'm so sorry you are going through this agony. It sounds like you will have to deal with the ovarian cyst, and the fact that you had the previous uterine issues only complicates your current mental outlook, as well as the decisions you'll soon be making.
If I were you, I would pursue a second opinion regarding how to deal with the cyst, and spend any extra research time on finding the absolute best surgeon in Bangkok, one who has performed whatever surgery you choose 100s of times. I would also look for one who is compassionate, who will pick up the phone PERSONALLY post-procedure when you have questions about ANYTHING.
As an aside, and I'm certainly not advocating anything, Louise Hay ("Heal Your Body") healed her own cyst, which in her case was supposedly cancerous, so if you believe that, then it can be done. I think she reports that she asked the doctors for several months, which they weren't comfortable granting her, and she changed her diet, found people who laid hands on her--I'm probably not remembering the whole scenario perfectly, but it was close to that. I personally am not that much of a thrillseeker.
In any case, for today, stay with your physical workout for your bone density and if you have to go on the internet, maybe focus on finding best doctor, if you don't have the best already, and perhaps the best surgeon, because looking up side effects of the surgery, while wise on many levels, is also dangerous for us. To think that I had two c-sections and sinus surgery, and had my wisdom teeth pulled, all before I had the internet to tell me everything that could wrong...well, I'm glad the procedures are behind me! Because everything worked out fine. Yet each of those procedures came with complications, long-lasting infections in two cases, bruises and weeks of discomfort with the wisdom teeth, etc. Not one of the procedures was something I could have lived without, but back then, I had nothing but my doctors words and positive attitude. That was enough to get me through and to heal my body.
I am not a doctor, but I think that when one part of your body is "off," it can challenge and potentially disable your entire system. I remember three years ago when my neck was in terrible shape: within six months, I also had lower back pain, my knees were a mess, I had a pinched nerve affecting my left elbow, and the list went on and on.
I think you have to focus on one issue at a time.
Your back, knee and spine issues do fall into the TMS category, at least as outlined by Sarno. The cyst? It might be completely benign, yet how does anyone know? Sometimes it's a "better safe than sorry" situation.
So, I don't know Mala. Female issues can be really painful. And facing these medical decisions is so difficult. We have so much information and so many choices. Re: hysterectomy, I have two friends who have gone through it, and both are happy they did. I am not advocating surgery nor am I recommending one path over another. There are risks involved with everything, not just medical procedures. I think if it were me going through this, I would try, without going on the internet, to get to the bottom of how I felt about what the risks of living with the cyst for a time (if that's even an option), versus the risks of having it removed. Then move up the ladder with how much risk you can tolerate, weighing all your options (doing nothing, removing the cyst, removing the ovary, doing and entire hysterectomy). Do this in a journal, on paper, with a trusted doctor, a patient relative or friend. This might be more important than getting the facts via medical research. You will have to be okay and you'll need to be positive and "up" recovery.
I just think that not every ache and pain that people have is TMS. Sometimes we must listen to and trust the doctors. Maybe pray about, if you pray. I pray, so I will pray about it for you!
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| guej |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 09:18:05
I'm with Skizzik, although Dr. Sarno would STRONGLY disagree and say we were all lucky that nothing was seriously wrong with us. I remember crying after every doctor's appointment last year when all the test results would come back fine, and no one could explain why I was still in pain. If they couldn't find what was wrong, then I couldn't fix it, and the pain went on. You know you've hit rock bottom when you start to envy people who get treatable cancer, go through the lousy chemo, and then it's over and they resume their lives. I know I don't really envy them, but that's how warped your perspective gets when you're in constant pain.
Mala, you've got a lot of weird things going on. Personally, I'd rule out physical maladies. All the worrying about what it could be, will keep you from treating it like TMS. I know I had to go through that physical "quest" before I was open to a psychological cause. Now I don't spend any time chasing physical symptoms. I still spend too much time focused on the pain itself (but that's a whole different post...). Hang in there. When I worried and stressed and cried the most over the physical symptoms, that was when they really took off out of control. Easier said than done, but calming down mentally will calm your body down a bit too. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 07:03:25
I hate TMS.
I hate it. I wish all pain was an indicator something was medically wrong and it could be diagnosed and fixed appropriately.
I hate the grey area of not knowing, the "get it checked out just in case" the resultant depression. The hopelessness, the desperation.
Just plain old hate it.
|
| mala |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 05:02:47
Thank you all for being so patient, reading my posts and for commenting.
I have read them all, just don't know how to respond & what to say & what to think. I am just so overwhelmed by what is going on with me. i can't sit too long, walking is painful on the knees & I am soooooo depressed. I keep seeing my life as over. No more traveling, no more plans, can't think what i am going to do 2morrow or what i am going to be able to do. I'm sorry that i am so focusing on the physical at the moment but please please let me wallow in self pity right now. i have no strength, no energy to do anything else.
I am still in bangkok and got more results from the ob/gyn 2day. I had an MRI of the abdomen becoz a 6 cm ovarian cyst was detected when i was last in hospital for my colon CT scan 2 months ago.
I had a myomectomy (surgery to remove 7 fibroids) 10 years ago. Instead of taking out the whole uterus, i opted to have the fibroids cut from the womb. The largest was 11cm. Fast forward to now & there is this huge ovarian cyst and a few more fibroids again. This wasn't supposed to happen coz I'm menopausal so no estrogen should mean no cysts or fibroids. My luck!!
Doctor recommends to have the cyst removed for pathology. He also says that the uterus is enlarged and retroverted which means it's tilted backwards. I asked if it was possible that this was causing more than usual back pain and he said possibly but can't say definitely. the ligaments attaching the uterus to the back could be inflammed. Since I am menopausal he suggested that i might want to have a hysterectomy.
i have been researching and looking for more info on hysterectomies.
I am disturbed by some of the side effects mentioned one of them being back pain can you believe.
So here i am utterly confused, in pain, depressed & yes wallowing in self pity.
Thank you all for reading this. Sorry to be such a baby.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 15:02:07
Hi mala,
I think it's worth doing Dr Schubiner's programme whether or not you have an op.
http://tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/Dr.+Schubiner%27s+online+Mind+Body+Program
Here's a Success Story for you to read:
http://tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/Spondylolisthesis
I really think pandamonium's story is worth a re-read, too:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5396
Hilary N |
| altherunner |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 10:00:37
The degenerative changes you mentioned sound about normal for anyone in my vintage - 50+. The doc showing them to you can cause them to hurt. I keep thinking that you have a huge anger issued buried, perhaps at your parents. The bigger the rage, the bigger the distraction, the more intense the pain syndrome. I found out that I had anger issues with my mother for neglecting my siblings and I, and my father for abandoning us. I found out later that my mom was following the Science of Mind, and didn't believe in doctors. That's ok, but it didn't work for toddlers with serious illneses. Are you avoiding facing something that you are truly enraged about? Your posts are mainly about the physical, obviously because you are in such pain, your posts have not referred to the root cause, past anger, grief, heartache. Are you a "people pleaser" or "perfectionist"? I am both. Keep digging. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 06:14:39
wow Hell, that was really good! I'll be rereading that one over and over for a bit.
|
| catspine |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 22:03:53
Mala
I never wore high heels so I couldn't tell you for or against it but I can tell you that a period of transition is always difficult and which ever solution you choose you'll need time to solve the problem so first thing first. Understanding comes with time. Make sure you have the support of your loved ones and then take the time you need to make a decision that YOU approve of and will be able to live with on the long term. If you're challenged about it then explain why you want it that way as long as it is legitimate you will have all the strength you need to stand for it.
Your ortho told you he doesn't want to operate yet, well here is your luck! it's much better than finding out you didn't need it after it's all done and paid for.
Surgery IS invasive what ever they want to call it doesn't change that and there is always a risk so take advantage of your good luck and try an alternative method that can not hurt you first, all it takes is a bit of patience and reading and nobody is going to do it for you. If that doesn't give any satisfaction after a few months you will just be exactly where you are now and you'll still have the other option. The other way around is not as potentially trouble free.
Ultimately your decision may be either subjective or objective or have a bit of both in it but it should be your decision. This is key to your healing.
All you need to know is how you want to heal and if you're ready to do what it takes from there thing will fall into place more smoothly.
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| mala |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 20:31:16
Thx HellNY for such a quick response. I hear & understand a lot of what you are saying & believe me surgery is a very frightening spectre one which I don't ever want to face. At the moment though I don't have a life so to speak. Every waking moment is spent in agony, nights are spent sleeping all tensed up. i hate what I'm doing to my husband who is actually being very good about it all. I can't plan anything. I don't see a future.
So can I ask you directly what you think I should do ?
BTW do you have a post on the success stories forum?
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| HellNY |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 18:56:21
The relationship between disc bulges and herniations with pain is so poor in the literature there is a whole lot of reason to question the physical diagnosis of degenerative disk disease for "radiculopathy."
I had pain that had a l5/s1 distribution. I had a disk "bulge" there. Like most 30+ year olds did (this was 10 years ago). That was not the ultimate cause of the pain.
The doctors have "correlated" my mothers pain to a spinal abnormality on 2 separate occasions and so far have failed miserably in resolving this issue.
Yes yes, I know all about the spine ...the l5/S1 dermatomes. I memorized them all in my 30s. The relationships between the nerve roots and the pattern of pain in the legs. Even further, the whole deal about central herniations actually impinging more on the central spinal nerves before they bifurcate at the next level down..therefore sometimes an l4/5 central herniation is suppose to cause pain in an unexpected l5/s1 distribiution because it is actually compressing the l5/s1 nerve roots that are passing through l4/5 on their way down. In contrast, lateral herniations will be more likely to cause pain at the affected level.
And of course the latest theories on how whats actually happen in the cytokines and related irritants in the nucleus pulpolsus that actually inflame the nerve roots. More justification for operating even before they herniate outright. Oh wait that was my 1st and second operation.
Of course we also learn of the ever-present facet arthritis and facet hypertrophy, which can cause irritations of the facet nerve which can give symptoms very much like a pinched nerve (including some radiating pain) at the same level as the nerve roots they are close to. Perhaps a facet rhizotomy is in order.
And let us never forget the alleged piriformis syndrom, which can also produce pain in a l5/s1 distribution or l4/5 (depending on which nerves your piriformis compresses).
And yet all too often these 'highly circumscribed" pain patterns that occur in lock-step dermatomal patterns are only the latest in a string of unrelated pain related ailments. So we have the surgery...maybe it gets fixed and more often (not). Only to be replace by another outrageous pain syndrome. And all too often there will be some abnormality in the spinal canal that is the cause of the pain (again). As you get older, there will be plentry of abnormalities at the site of the nerves in involved. Even in healthy people.
It just gets to be nonsense after a while. You finally stop hoping the orthopedics will solve your problem with some surgical magic and start listening to the evidence that tended to suggest that spinal disks were rarely the cause of pain...such as teh well documents fact that thousands upon thousands of people with herniated disks have absolutely no back or leg pain at all. Many people with considerable central canal stenosis do not have pain either. You;d heard of this in the past but didnt want to believe it..because then that would threaten your hope to get better because you believed "if we know the cause, the doctors will fix me." More terrifying was the idea that it was NOT your spine. To the naive, that is like a death sentence (read: NOW what??)
Here's a thought: what IF (and lets just think IF) we belonged to a groups of people with excessively tension and worry-prone personalities/temperaments. What if we tend to hold all sorts of involuntary, autonomic driven tension in our bodies because of our innate predisposition to fear and be afraid and guard ourselevs. What if this starts causing constriction of blood, oxygen and nutrients to nerves and/or tissues in our bodies. So our nerves are always at the endge. Autonomic overload.
So we turn 30, or 40 or whatever. Or we have an injury. Whatever. A mild invertebral disk herniation, which oridinarily doesnt cause pain in a normal person, beccomes excrutiating to us. Primarily because, say, so many of our nerves and tissues are already near threshold. Already compressed by chornically tense muscles, already inflamed because they dont get the oxygen they need, already hair-trigger because they are bombarded by alarm signals. And extra modest compression or restriction from a moderate bit of diplacement in the spinal canal is the last straw. OUr nerves cross threshold that oridinary people's nerves would not. We feel horrible pain acutely.
Yes, maybe it relates - in a proximal way -- to the the bulging disk in your back. But unless you are going stop time -- you are not going to stop the fact that as you get older, more disks will bulge and some will herniate, And you will get central canal stenosis. And you will get arthritis. And. And. And.
And yet why are you so debilitated when we look at other people with MRIS with equal (normal) degeneration and they dont have anyhing like your pain? Why some people hurt their back and are better in a few days and we linger in agaony for years?
How about the notion that we have nerves throughout or body that barely have any "tolerance" left to handle "normal" aging because they are already so starved of oxygen, or blood flow, or are constantly bombarded with fight or flight adrenaline and their are always a hair trigger away from an action potential?
In other words, why is our entire pain system on such a hair trigger form the normal sorts of things that happnen in our bodies while others are not?
It is only the theory of TMS and psychosomatic pain that has ever provided a sensible answer (and solution, in my case) after years of chasing disk bulge after disk bulge, all with the "classic dermatomal signs"
Only early in my "pain life" was I so enraptured and enthralled by orthopedic medicine. Ten years later and I see it for the nonsense that much of it is. I stopped marveling at the doctors long ago.
Sure, check with your doctor. But use your head. Look at your history. |
| mala |
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 18:48:43
Hi all I have just changed the topic a bit rather than starting a new one.
Had 2 Mri's done one for spine (ortho) & one for abdomen(gyne) and 9 xrays of back, hip, knees.
Saw the ortho and he said I have facet joint arthritis & degenerative disc at 2 levels L4/L5 & L5/S1. I also have spondylolythesis which means that the last disc has slipped forward by 2mm. The slip is what is causing the pain in the low back. The curve in my lower back is very arched and he says its the spondy which is causing it. He said he did not want to operate but if it slips further he may have no choice. SI joints are Ok and so is the hip.
Now to the knees. degenerative changes in both but more in the left. that means the cartilage is wearing thin. This explains why the left knee is so sore.
I will see knee doc & gyne tomorrow & post again Pain levels are really bad.
I know that I am focusing on the physical but at this stage don't know what to do. I know that all the things mentioned have been ruled out by sarno as causing pain. Part of me wants to put on my high heels & walk around for miles despite the pain & tell my brain that I don't believe there is anything wrong but part of me is so scared that i may make it worse. I think that my pain has become worse recently because I have been throwing caution to the wind.
i want to do schubiner's course but i need to be reassured by a TMS doctor that it is OK for me to do so.
Please please any insights, comments, views would be appreciated.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
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