| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| mala |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 05:35:52
I have been looking at myself in the mirror recently and have made the following observations about my body:
1. My face is tilted to the right
2. My right shoulder is significantly lower than my left one
3. My 2 collar bones are not symmetrical as a result of the drop in the right shoulder
4. Whenever I look at my shirt it always hangs significantly lower on my right.
My pain is mostly on the right side. I know that since I started the having pain nearly 4 years ago that I have held a lot of tension in various parts of my body that are now chronically stiff and painful. In fact I am completely unable to relax my lower back, upper back, shoulder, chest and thigh muscles. Could someone please comment.
Thanks and good health to all.
mala |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 21:22:17
I do not believe that holding our muscles tense can pull our bones out of alignment.
I think this is common; we see and experience it all the time. I have had this problem myself in the past, where one hip was pulled up because of tension in the muscles on one side of my back. Tense one shoulder and see what happens: your shoulder on that side comes up. If you walked around that way, it would appear as though your shoulder was "out of alignment" but it would just be flexed muscles.
I think that some people have naturally "misaligned" bones.
...doesn't mean in is an abnormality, nor that it should cause pain.
I have not said that there is pain in all such cases or that the cause of pain is the misalingned bone or that muscle tension is the only reason why someone's bones might appear to be misaligned.
But here, we have someone complaining of pain who also says her bones appear misaligned and she has felt "a lot of tension" in her body. So, in this case, it seems likely to me that the apparent misalignment is caused by the muscle tension which also causes the pain. What causes the muscle tension in the first place? Well, that is another question. Maybe it's psychogenic, maybe not.
My point is not that bones out of alignment necessarily cause pain but that holding muscles tense over long periods of time causes pain. That can also pull your bones into an abnormal position. In fact, "pulling bones" is the only function muscles have!
Keeping a muscle flexed over time, without relief, causes pain -- I'd say that is a known fact. If you don't believe me, try it. On the other hand, if you try reducing the blood flow in your hand or leg, you will find that that does not cause pain -- at least until you let the blood flow back in, which can hurt.
Seems to me that muscle tension, rather than reduced blood flow, is a much more likely vehicle for pain caused by mental "tension", i.e. TMS. |
| Dave |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 10:09:17
quote:
Originally posted by austingary
In most cases, when alignment issues are that obvious, the bones are where they are because the muscles are pulling them there.
What is your basis for this explanation?
I do not believe that holding our muscles tense can pull our bones out of alignment. I think that some people have naturally "misaligned" bones. Just because one shoulder appears lower than the other doesn't mean in is an abnormality, nor that it should cause pain. Even severe scoliosis in some people causes no pain whatsoever. |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 09:33:32
Forget the way you look in the mirror.
The point is not how you look in the mirror, or even that bones "out of alignment" cause pain on their own. In most cases, when alignment issues are that obvious, the bones are where they are because the muscles are pulling them there.
If your muscles are pulling them there, then you are holding certain muscles very tensely, all the time, and probably completely unconsciously. Also, those muscles are probably getting no exercise, no movement, which makes them weaker, even as they are being forced to constantly do this useless work.
I would argue that such a condition, which is quite common, can and often does cause pain. Take a weak muscle, put it into a constantly-flexed position and hold it there, hour after hour, day after day, and you will get spasms in it. Spasms hurt and lead to knots which hurt chronically.
When Dr. Sarno shows us how rage and stress can cause or exacerbate pain, he does us a great service. But the idea that we are free to misuse our body in any way we like because almost all our pain is psychogenic -- that is harmful; there's just no way around it.
There is a difference between "structural" and "physical". While the commonly-blamed structural problems may seldom cause pain, there are many things that we do that do cause pain. It's not where your bones are, not even where your muscles are, it's what you are doing with them that is important, rage or no rage. |
| pault |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 05:04:01
Good answer Dave! We all are out of alignment,as it is normal.Forget the way you look in the mirror.All normal! |
| April |
Posted - 06/14/2004 : 07:28:25
>>My right shoulder is significantly lower than my left one...
I know that since I started the having pain nearly 4 years ago that I have held a lot of tension in various parts of my body that are now chronically stiff and painful. In fact I am completely unable to relax my lower back, upper back, shoulder, chest and thigh muscles.
Mala,
I agree with Dave's "So what?" to the lower shoulder.
I noticed years ago that my left shoulder was lower than my right because my clothes used to fall to that side. Back then I wasn’t in pain and guessed that maybe my ride side was out just stronger from playing tennis. I really didn’t know or care.
Many years and a few rounds of TMS later, my left shoulder is still lower than my right. I can’t even carry a purse on that side because it would slide off my shoulder. I have never associated this imbalance with pain. Maybe because I noticed it before what I now know to be a TMS attack and in hindsight I also can know I eventually came out of the pain, yet my left side is still lower.
My thought is that the chronic pain in your back muscles is likely from a constant state of tension. But I see the root of this tension as TMS rather than structural. Breaking that spasm either from a TMS emotional release or some help from medication can work is so welcome when it finally happens. I like Dr. Andrew Weil’s advice on TMS in that TMS is actually so common that it should be ruled out first before other avenues are pursued.
April
PS I will offer a non TMS solution for chronic headaches & backpain that worked for my sister. Someone along the way said her one leg was shorter than the other. She put a lift in her shoe and the pain has been gone for years now.
|
| mala |
Posted - 06/13/2004 : 21:03:26
But whatever Sarno said to or about us, it's would not be of great consequence, because this site is not an homage to John Sarno or his ideas. Here, all ideas, including Sarno's, have always been up for discussion and argument. Personally, I hope that will never change.
Absolutely. It IS all about ideas so please let's have lots of them. It's what makes this forum so successful and useful. There is a certain danger to limiting what people can or should say and leans towards being fanatical.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/13/2004 : 18:35:57
But this is not my battle against spine abnormalities, but it is a chance for me to look deeper into myself and my emotions.
I don't think anyone here has been discussing "spine abnormalities". I think you are confusing "structural" with "physical". Most of us who post here are in full agreement with Sarno and others that the structural abnormalities that chiropractors thrive on do not necessarily cause any pain at all. There is lots of evidence for that. But there are many physical things that you can do to cause yourself pain and other problems.
If you want to look deeper into yourself, nobody is stopping you. Go for it.
Sarno has done more for me than any other doctor and guess what he did not make a cent off of me.
Whether you bought the book or just borrowed it is not the point. The point is, "Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut." Sarno's life and work are all built around his ideas about TMS and now that's all he sees, everywhere he looks. He writes as though it makes no difference whatsoever how you use or misuse your body, as long as you think right. While that's an attractive message for those who don't want to make any physical effort, there are not many people who agree with it and not much evidence for it.
The 400-pound man with bad knees is not going to get much better by looking deeper into himself. Neither is the person who spends all day hunched over a computer screen and never exercises.
TMS is certainly part of the picture. But you kid yourself if you think that looking deeper into yourself is all you have to do. |
| 2scoops |
Posted - 06/13/2004 : 14:13:02
"If you get good ideas from John Sarno, great. But you better just take them as more ammo for your battle, because it is your battle and no one else is there in the foxhole with you. Not John Sarno, not anyone. Your recovery is your responsibility. Own it."
You are right gary, this is my battle no one else'e. But this is not my battle against spine abnormalities, but it is a chance for me to look deeper into myself and my emotions. Sarno has don more for me than any other doctor and guess what he did not make a cent off of me. |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/13/2004 : 07:58:35
I think if Sarno visited this site he would tell us to look to at our unconsciuos for the answers.
Sure, I think if Sarno visited this site he would tell us to look there for the solution to everything, because that's what he does. That's his business, and he's done very well with it.
To whatever extent he's right or wrong, it's still his business and you should never completely trust someone when they're making money (books and patients, in John Sarno's case) off their advice.
Actually, you should never completely trust any advice without question just because humans are fallible.
But whatever Sarno said to or about us, it's would not be of great consequence, because this site is not an homage to John Sarno or his ideas. Here, all ideas, including Sarno's, have always been up for discussion and argument. Personally, I hope that will never change.
Over the past week, we have seen with what over-the-top fervor a large percentage of Americans apparently long for a king, rather than a chief executive, as head of our government. I could not be happier that this week-long orgy of royalty-worship and fake grief over someone who was already dead, for all practical purposes, is over.
I bring that up in order to compare it with those who would like to turn this site into royalty-worship: install John Sarno as High Priest in the Church of TMS so they can slaver over him and his ideas.
In the long run, this kind of religious orientation to the anti-TMS work will not serve you, because it takes your attention away from the hard and cold fact that the total responsibility for your health, your fitness, your well-being, and living a life as free of pain as possible rests on you. It's your responsibility.
If you get good ideas from John Sarno, great. But you better just take them as more ammo for your battle, because it is your battle and no one else is there in the foxhole with you. Not John Sarno, not anyone. Your recovery is your responsibility. Own it. |
| 2scoops |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 22:34:06
All I am saying is I think we would recover faster if we do Sarno's work. I am only trying to help. I think if Sarno visited this site he would tell us to look to at our unconsciuos for the answers. If we are unable to let go of the structural aspects like is my one leg shorter than the other, than we will not be able to heal this pain. Sarno's research has healed many. I have hope because of him. I got my life back, which is priceless. Now that I am able to say there is nothing wrong with my back or spine alignment I can live a normal life. |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 20:39:52
2scoops, it seems to me like something else may be slowing down your progress.
No doubt. And this is something for each of us to consider: Are we assigning responsibility for our progress to others? In the beginning, middle and end, the entire responsibility is our own. If we hurt, we do so because of how we react to the world around us. No one else, unless they beat us, can make us hurt. No one else can cure us.
One of the valuable side topics we have discussed here are The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. Marcus' watchword, as given to him by the Oracle, was simple: "It's up to you!" |
| mala |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 20:02:34
'It has slowed my progress down to come in here sometimes because some of us seem to be focused on structural aspects.'
2scoops, it seems to me like something else may be slowing down your progress. If you feel that your progress is being slowed down by reading the posts here then perhaps you should'nt read them or choose which ones you read very carefully. Perhaps sticking to Sarno's books or videos may be more suitable in your case.
We are all on a learning curve here. Most if not all who post here ARE trying to find relief from pain through the tms approach. Although Sarno's books and videos cover a lot of ground , there are still aspects and areas that need to be addressed. Questions arise when individuals read or think about tms with reference to their pain and they should be allowed to express what or how they feel and think. Remember, a lot of us live too far away to even find a tms doctor so this forum is crucial in helping us to understand more about it through other people's experiences and experiences do differ. The mindbody approach is by far the most sensible approach to resolving pain that I have come across but 'minds' do differ. It would be simplistic to say that only one approach would work for everyone.
It would be dangerous to restrict this forum. People should be allowed to express their thoughts and write about their experiences in a polite, helpful and encouraging way.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 18:22:35
I think there some of here who are still focused too much on the way we sit, blah blablah. This is the TMS help board.
You're late to the party, friend. When I started this board two years ago, it was open to all topics related to TMS and, under Dave's ownership, as far as I know, it still is. If you don't like the subject matter, start your own board. If you don't like my posts or those of any others, don't read them. But what you choose to read is your responsibility. The subject matter of the TMS Board is not. |
| 2scoops |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 12:13:11
I think there some of here who are still focused too much on the way we sit, blah blablah. This is the TMS help board. Sarno created the TMS theory not the theory of sitting. We need to focus on Sarno's work. People come in here to to get with Sarno's research. It has slowed my progress down to come in here sometimes because some of us seem to be focused on structural aspects. Let's focus on the unconsciouss please. |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 23:16:04
The Egoscue exercises are very similar to yoga. So what kind of results have you had?
Excellent, so far. I read through the book, then started doing the set of daily exercises Egoscue recommends at the end of the book, adding a gentle 1-minute hamstring stretch using a belt, since I have had such tight hamstrings. I do those every morning. They take about 20 minutes. I think I've been doing them for about a month, now. I do them very gently, nothing like what I used to think of as stretching.
Within two weeks, the hamstring pain and tightness that had plagued me while running was gone. My pelvic and hip area is now noticeably more flexible which translates into a more fluid, fuller hip movement while walking and running. I have much less soreness around my hip bones. And my neck will turn a little farther to each side.
For me, it is not that I have tossed TMS theory over the side and signed up with a new religion. But every problem is not TMS. For example, about 6 weeks ago I slammed my right index finger knuckle into a board in our garden. Pain and swelling. That was not TMS.
But after a month, it was still somewhat swollen and prone to hurt after any significant exertion using that finger. Had it X-rayed: no break, no sign of anything untoward.
So, now -- I am thinking TMS, and I have started using the anti-TMS methods against it. When it hurts, I turn my mind to my emotions and expect that I will get relief because that has been my experience. And there is evidence that I may be getting somewhere. That's my way of including TMS into the Big Picture. |
| mala |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 19:43:24
IMO The body aspect of the mindbody connection is as important as the mind aspect. The way we use and treat our body physically has a great impact on our mind which again affects the body. It is sometimes hard to know whether the initial problem is physical or emotional. A bit like which came first, the chicken or the egg.
We all have issues and those issues as well as various emotions have been with us since our childhood . In fact you could say that a lot of emotions are stored physaically in our bodies. When our bodies are strong, we are able to cope better with these issues. When our bodies are not strong enough , we are less likely to be able to cope emotionally too and the emotions overwhelm us and this leads to more physical problems.
Even people who do the Sarno work do it differently and it can be pretty confusing. Some just ignore the pain and plough on, others 'will it' to go away
while others think about emotional issues. Some people need to be able to pinpoint what exactly is bothering them while others get relief by just acknowledging they have issues. Some will get relief by doing both physical and mental work. Because we are so different and we all process information and emotions and treat our bodies differently, the way we find relief will be different too. Again, I believe very strongly that emotions and feelings do play a very important role but I think the body needs attention too.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| EileenTM |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 15:33:29
I am interested in how the Egoscue exercises work for you. I bought the book "Pain Free", but put it on the shelf to devote my complete energies to Sarno and Soper books. Most of my symptoms are now gone except for tinnitus and some occasional sciatic pain. So now I am thinking about doing those Egoscue exercises as part of my fitness program. I play tennis and golf and do weights (to prevent osteoporosis). I also do some light yoga. The Egoscue exercises are very similar to yoga. So what kind of results have you had? Which menu do you do and how often? Of course I am not looking for this to relieve pain. I already accept completely the TMS theory. I have seen it work for myself, my husband and my father. I am just interested in it for fitness. |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 10:02:00
I truly believe that thinking physical in any way, during the early stages of the process while you are trying to drive the TMS concept into your unconscious, will slow recovery from psychogenic pain. This is based on my own personal experience and Dr. Sarno's experience with thousands.
Agreed, this would be the recipe for recovery for someone whose pain was primarily or totally TMS. But it would also be the recipe for a really good placebo effect. |
| Dave |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 09:38:07
quote:
Originally posted by austingary
...why not choose to believe that you can effectively do the anti-TMS work along with other work on the way you use your body?
I don't think you can choose, because TMS is an unconscious process over which we do not have direct control.
This is why I believe that if we consciously think about physical causes of pain, those beliefs get pushed into our unconscious and give TMS an opportunity to grab our attention.
Yes, it is absoluely likely that our muscle pains come from different sources. It is entirely possible that part of our pain comes from the way we sit or walk, or the fact that we are out of shape, or eat the wrong foods. Maybe strong-minded people can have success taking multiple approaches to treating the pain, as you have done. But I do not believe that everyone can do this.
I truly believe that thinking physical in any way, during the early stages of the process while you are trying to drive the TMS concept into your unconscious, will slow recovery from psychogenic pain. This is based on my own personal experience and Dr. Sarno's experience with thousands. |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/11/2004 : 09:26:58
Gary may be right, but in my personal experience (and in the opinion of Dr. Sarno) it is detrimental to think this way when you are in the early stages of fighting TMS.
Dave is not one of the space cadets here, but rather a rational person and his is a perfectly rational answer IF the problem is all or almost all TMS and not related to how you are using your muscles. (I would call that "physical" but not "structural", which is more like bones out of place.) But, in my opinion, while TMS is an important contributor to body pain, so is how we use and/or abuse our bodies in the environment we live in and this must also be taken into consideration if we want long-term health.
Dr. Sarno in his books makes it sound as though almost all body pain originates "in your mind" and the cure is also pretty much "in your mind". This is happy news (and, yes, good for book sales & new patients!) for those looking for a one-step, easy solution but I suspect it is only true for a few people with serious emotional issues, conscious or unconscious.
I believe that TMS is more likely to be one cause of pain but not the only cause of pain -- and that relief from pain over a long period of time probably requires a lot of unpleasant HABIT CHANGING. (But not surgery or medical intervention as a "structural" problem would.)
I have pointed out before how some want to look at TMS Theory almost like a religion. I ran onto this quote, which seemed appropo:
"Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think."
-- Schopenhauer
But if you conclude that the key to pain relief is to religiously believe (via thought control) in certain Sarnoesque Truths exactly as he wrote them down, and you think that you can actually consciously choose what to believe, then, if that is not working for one reason or another, why not choose to believe that you can effectively do the anti-TMS work along with other work on the way you use your body? On changing your physical habits? On your diet? Or exercise?
Well, I think the answer to that is that one way is "just think it and it's yours" while the other requires a lot of habit-changing and work, over a long period of time. People don't want to do that. We are searching for the Holy Grail. The words carved on the side of it are: "Something for Nothing". |
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