| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chantal |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 02:53:13
quote:
I see no reason that anyone needs to appologize for their replys because no one wrote anything negative or insensitive. It is the TMS gremlin just f...ing with us.
I have removed my list of hilarious symptoms. It was not taken seriously and it was a major mistake to post here. I never got my question answered. It is impossible to write off all symptoms as "just TMS" when they have never been discussed or mentioned in TMS literature. "Fibro" symptoms go far beyond the average "wide-spread muscular pain" that most of you think it is. So, how can one honestly TRUST that? Just because some of you sarcastic folks say so? C'mon! You all seem to liberally write things off as "just TMS" regardless of WHAT those symptoms are! It is also interesting how some of you conveniently blame the "TMS Gremlin" for your rancor and lack of compassion. "TMS made me do it"... please...
I will continue to study Sarno, but this place... talk about a stress-rage-generator! Now that I have read many posts out here, I see that this is nothing new. Some of you guys are really mean to each other, and seem to enjoy the sport of attacking one another out here all of the time... well no thanks!
Again to those of you who responded with care and genuine support...
my sincere thanks and good luck to you.
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| miche |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:25:49
Sorry for the double posting, computor problem, maybe it has tms also lol |
| miche |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:18:01
Victoria I have fibro, I understand your despair, but you mustn't give up, last night it occured to me that fibro is the equivalent of a suit of armor for me, it may keep me stiff and rigid , but it protects me also, as long as I wear it I look calm and composed and it suits my purpose , I will visualise shedding it like the burden that it has become, journalling has had minimum effect on my pain level, maybe this new approach will help. |
| miche |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:07:58
Victoria I have fibro, I understand your despair, but you mustn't give up, last night it occured to me that fibro is the equivalent of a suit of armor for me, it may keep me stiff and rigid , but it protects me also, as long as I wear it I look calm and composed and it suits my purpose , I will visualise shedding it like the burden that it has become, journalling has had minimum effect on my pain level, maybe this new approach will help. |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:38:43
quote:
One thing I learned from the threads is that it takes time. I am impatient, cuz it just feels so horrible some days. I know you know what I mean. Baffling and powerful.
Victoria -
yes, that is the big thing. It takes time, just like those other programs you are obviously alluding to!!!
Welcome to Sick-Anon
Although you may not like us, you may come to love us, the way we already love you.
xxx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| Victoria008 |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 13:34:13
Wow, what a thread! After reading I broke down and cried. Today has been a terrible day for me. I decided to give up. When I first read 2 of Sarno's books and then found this forum, I had hope and started feeling better. So I got real excited and thought it was all behind me. Then I had a few bad days, then more, I wasn't doing much journaling or reading. I just wanted it to be over NOW! During the last 2 weeks it's like all the symptoms came back, plus some new ones. I kept trying to stay positive and not focus on it, then today, I just lost hope. Whatever this syndrome is I don't care, F--k it! I quit! If I have to quit my job, go on disability and lay on my hot pad for the rest of my life so be it! I am tired of fighting! I went to work with this attitude. Came home and for some reason wanted to read the forum. This thread was very helpful. Made me realize that everyone here has or is suffering. That many of you here have felt the same way I do now. Like poor Chantal. The fear and anger can be overwhelming! It can make one feel so desperate. One thing I learned from the threads is that it takes time. I am impatient, cuz it just feels so horrible some days. I know you know what I mean. Baffling and powerful.
I want to thank you all for sharing your experience, strength and hope. You sure helped me today.
Victoria |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 13:00:27
WHATEVER  --what do you expect from a dumb guy, (not to mention an idiot and an imbecile). But please, I'm certainly not looking for an apology. |
| miche |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 12:05:14
One does not have to be right nor wrong to extend an apology, it is sufficient to know that our words or actions have hurt someone, to be able to do so is not tms goodism, it simply means that one has empathy, grace, and maturity. Bravo to the ladies who cared enough about a fellow sufferer to apologise ,to explain, and to reach out. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 09:27:57
quote:
Originally posted by Chantal
quote:
I see no reason that anyone needs to appologize for their replys because no one wrote anything negative or insensitive. It is the TMS gremlin just f...ing with us.
I have removed my list of hilarious symptoms. It was not taken seriously and it was a major mistake to post here. I never got my question answered. It is impossible to write off all symptoms as "just TMS" when they have never been discussed or mentioned in TMS literature. "Fibro" symptoms go far beyond the average "wide-spread muscular pain" that most of you think it is. So, how can one honestly TRUST that? Just because some of you sarcastic folks say so? C'mon! You all seem to liberally write things off as "just TMS" regardless of WHAT those symptoms are! It is also interesting how some of you conveniently blame the "TMS Gremlin" for your rancor and lack of compassion. "TMS made me do it"... please...
I will continue to study Sarno, but this place... talk about a stress-rage-generator! Now that I have read many posts out here, I see that this is nothing new. Some of you guys are really mean to each other, and seem to enjoy the sport of attacking one another out here all of the time... well no thanks!
Again to those of you who responded with care and genuine support...
my sincere thanks and good luck to you.
Well, that was an interesting case. I hope if anyone is doing a "clinical" study or doctoral thesis, from the TMS research gleaned from this board, that they take full note of Chantal's important contribution.
That was one of the most whirl-wind arrivals and departures I have witnessed, (and for a change), I don't think I can be blamed for being one of the "TMS meanies" driving Chantal away (being a late arrival to the scene of the thread).
Her case displays how fibro/TMS is truly one of the most severe forms of psychosomatic/psychogenic disease. No one said anything that remotely required apology, yet some in typical TMS-goodist fashion apologized anyway. Chantal, in a classic example of TMS "in-accurate" observational thinking, misconstrued everything said to her.
Her thinking inputs are 180 degrees off, therefore her pro-preoceptive inputs are equally off. . No matter what anyone would have said to Chantal, she would have mis-construed it as an attack--she is fully defensed.
She did say that she would stick with the TMS books and that is the BEST thing she can do. Maybe the TMS "knowledge penicillin" will get there some day on a cellular level. As for the the "mean" spirited debate she alludes to (I, for one, have NO idea what that's all about  )-- WELLCOME TO THE REAL WORLD! It often SUCKS, causes stress, rage and TMS psychosomatic dis-ease.
Who has the time to go down that list she presented to study and reply as to which is legit and which is psychosomatic? You get what you pay for--and none of us are getting paid to provide treatment to a perfect stanger.
Rather than being grateful for the sincere help she was given, gratis, she cut and ran. Well I guess she or her insurance comapany will continue paying thou$$$and$$$ of dollar$$$ for more bad advice. What a pity. It points out whether the purpose of the board is to give attention or useful TMS accurate information. Maybe she was a troll, that's always a possiblity over the internet.
I answered her question but it went right by her. Good try kids, better luck next time.
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| alexis |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 08:20:28
Hi Chantal,
I don't know if you are still reading here, but I wanted to direct you to this topic by Dave, the forum moderator, to provide some perspective on what you have experienced here:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2300&SearchTerms=forum+isn't
Certainly we could have handled some things a little better, and maybe you would have stayed around a few weeks longer. But I think you still want the kind of support available in a fibromyalgia group. This is, if you have TMS, both counter-productive and, frankly, no longer likely to be available to you in the fibromyalgia world, once you have crossed the TMS line.
If in a few months you have a new perspective on what happened here, just come back. Pick a different screen name if you want. It won't be a big deal to anyone.
I noticed you never commented on the book recommended by many of us here (or on any other piece of advice, for that matter ... in either you current or now deleted posts). I hope you will pick up this book.
And I hope you will look seriously at the reason why you focused on specifics you found negative, but never once commented on any specific of advice or support, offering ever only a general and vague "thanks". And yet you listed in detail every item you found offensive.
You came in announcing in your first post that you already expected to meet a lack of understanding, and as a result, that is mostly all you saw.
I think, by the way, that you are misreading the quote that you posted in your modified introductory post. Read it again. I will let the author clarify, but I am pretty sure it refers to those being offended and not those perceived as offending. |
| sonora sky |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 07:34:11
I'm not sure what to say or how to help, Chantal. It seems like you will not believe fibro is TMS until it is proven, scientifically, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that each and every sypmptom is in fact mind-body related. (Is this correct?) I guess the answer to your question is "no," all these symptoms have not been addressed by Sarno (though many of them have). Perhaps, if you were able to schedule a personal appointment/exam with Sarno himself or another TMS doctor, they may be able to go through the list of symptoms with you and tell you 100% that they are TMS, or that they strongly believe that they are. I think this may be the only way (at this point in time) that you would be able to get a definitive answer. Though I'm not sure that they would be able to offer you "proof" in the form of studies/reports, as in many cases, these have not yet been performed. (Additionally, mindbody symptoms/disorders are often difficult to test/quantify with hard, cold science.) So, I think you may be at a stalemate (sp?) in your personal exploration of TMS.
Do try the book that has been recommended on this thread, as it presents fibro, specifically, as a TMS concept.
I hope you will find relief, through this method or another. Good luck,
ss
p.s. FYI for those reading/responding, Chantal edited new comments into her original post. |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 22:44:29
The thing about fibromyalgia, from my point of view, was that because it kept moving around, it wasn't so easy to "work through."
One of the "drips" I had that eventually led me here was that I read a study saying that they found that people with fibromyalgia who focused a lot on the pain were developing MORE pain pathways! So a very real treatment was painkillers, even though they can be a problem, because they take the patient's focus off the pain.
When I read that, years ago, I saw the light for a few seconds. But soon plunged back into darkness as I searched the web for information on - let's see, maybe it was "hiatal hernia" that day!
Chantal! Come back! We're with you. We are you. We all resemble our own remarks!
xxx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 12:44:01
quote:
Originally posted by Chantal
Hi,
I have read and own all of Dr Sarno's books. [emphasis tt] I have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia. And yes, I know y'all call it "the F-word" around here. I have read many posts where the extensive/severe nature of fibro has been blown off and/or minimized. Its difficult to compare severe fibro with a bad knee or a sore hip. Although I do recognize that it's impossible to understand how severe these symptoms are, if you do not suffer in this way.
WARNING : This is in no way criticism of Chantal or anyone else with fibromayalgia/TMS.
I feel this is evidence of how the TMS gremlin tricks the mind into what Dr. Marc Sopher mentions in TDM as in-accurate thinking and emphasizes the need to read and re-read Dr. Sarno, until the "TMS knowledge penicillin" runs it's full course, is accepted by the mindbody/bodymind on a cellular level and deconditioned from the in-accurate thoughts and starts functioning accurately in a TMS positive way.
I have seen no evidence that people with fibro/TMS are treated any differntly than others here and I see no reason that anyone needs to appologize for their replys because no one wrote anything negative or insensitive. It is the TMS gremlin just f...ing with us.
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| momtoone |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 11:44:13
I generally am a reader and not much of a poster (word?) but I had to express a reply to Chantal. I think that she was coming here in hopes of support and to be honest I agree with her..she just did not get it (she did from some). Many people on this board have accepted and improved with Sarno's techniques. However, she is new to this, she is still at the point of one foot in the medical world and one in the "Sarno" world. She needed encouragement and guidance not mocking and although that was not the intention, I can see how that came across. People need to remember that when the majority first found Sarno they were at the end of their rope, just like her post screams out to me. She is not educated on the Sarno ways, she is just learning and how can she reject that symptom list when she does not have the confidence to do so. I do agree with TT in respect to the fact that I do not think anything was directed at you personally. I also agree that the Divided Mind and Nancy Selfridge (sp?) books are both wonderful works that will help you. I have been diagnosed with Fibro for 13 years now and I have had many of the symptoms on the list. But when you read these works, you begin to say Aha..that is me. I will caution you though that Fibro takes longer to rid yourself of the syptoms as expressed by Dr. Sarno and by the TMS DR. I see. I have struggled with this as I felt like I should have been healed immediately by reading like others were (peferctionist). Please return to the board and take another look at the posts and your own. Yours are like mine in the fact that it is filled with fear. This is a major componet of TMS and one not to rid yourself of easily especially if initiated in childhood, continuing on to the present. Best of luck to you. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 11:37:05
Chantal, the reason that Sarno focuses on pain is that his first ideas about TMS came from pain patients, primarily people with back pain. People with RSI complain similarly about HBP and how it's all about back pain. Only later did he start to realize that these are all intertwined. He's not an expert on fibro and probably would not want to include a huge list of symptoms like that in his books because lists like that can trigger the "clever" aspect of TMS to jump to something new, as a few people have mentioned. We all are annoyed that he doesn't talk just about our symptoms exactly, because we would be comforted if he did. But the point of TMS is it's not really about the specific symptoms.
Sarno believes that the syndrome of fibromyalgia is TMS. If all of these things are indeed symptoms of the syndrome, then by extension he would agree they're symptoms of TMS.
My best suggestion would be -- approach the symptoms that you feel are most troublesome for you, most at the heart of your own experience of the syndrome. Try treating them as TMS. Read the book recommended on fibromyalgia. Hopefully you will make some progress.
BTW, I agree with the other who say that the comments are not in any way directed at you. We've all been in pain. No one is minimizing anyone's experience of it.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 09:07:54
Good Morning Chantal,
If you are still around? But with "fibro" TMS you are probably not going anywhere too fast. WARNING : THAT WAS A BAD KOKE OR RATHER A BAD JOKE (maybe due to bad coke he, he). If you are still here after that, good! Depression is a TMS affective equivalent. It prevents people from understanding what a funny guy i am, but some people here get it.
Chantal, one of the first bits of evidence that your f....ing form of TMS is beginning to dissipate, will be when you can start to laugh again. In India, where all the brains are (not Europe), they have groups of people who get together to laugh as a form of yoga-therapy. They discovered laughing has healing properties. They don't laugh at anything in particular, they just laugh. You probably won't be laughing today but when you do, take it as evidence that you are improving.
Your recognition that Dr. Sarno is a genius is good evidence that you have gained a great insight and acceptance of the Good Doctor's TMS theory. I have observed with myself and others at this board, an interesting phenomenon. That is TMS sufferers's gloss over, miss, and forget the portions of the Dr. Sarno's book that refer to their personal symptom. They feel that the people with neck, back, butt, or enlarged testicles (joke) are getting all the good TMS stuff.
This is a trick the unconscious mind (or gremlin) plays on us. It is the same trick that your mind has played on you giving you all the symptoms. You have observed some more mind tricks when you read the replys here and thought you were being ridiculed or not getting empathy. If anything it was the opposite. I read all the posts and none were directed at you but at the system.
In regards to your question about Dr. Sarno not writing about cognitive and neurological symptoms--that's ALL he writes about. He says TMS is all about the cognitive..in-accurate cognitive. The neurological system is the messanger boy for all the in-accurate or dis-information that the unconscious (bad-cogniton) is sending out to the body causing great but harmless pain. Whether you have one symptom, symptoms that move or as in your case multiple symptoms--it's ALL TMS! It all emenates from the unconscius causing in-accurate neruological responses resulting in harmless pain.
Dr. Sarno, in his latest book says this is a psychological protective device. The greater your symptoms perhaps the more protection your psyche needs from the enraging thoughts. The symptoms serve as a distraction to stop you from following through on those enraging feelings and doing and saying things that would be found socially un-acceptable in our culture.
This is in the books but the mind plays it's tricks to prevent us from seeing the info.
Chantal have you read the latest TMS book, THE DIVIDED MIND?
Have you been dx'ed by a TMS MD? Have you had psycho-therapy by a TMS trained psych-therapist?
In closing, I repeat my warning, nothing I have said or anyone else has, been directed at you personaly from anything but a helpful and empathetic place. If you are NOT reading it that way, it is the BEST evidence of the tricks the TMS gremlin can play that is the source of the TMS symptoms.
Cheers,
tt
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| alexis |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 07:56:04
Hi Chantal,
First I want to apologize for laughing about the list. I realize that it was easily misunderstood and that it was inappropriate to focus on what many of us consider both a sad and humorous aspect of the medical system at this point in your diagnosis. Your concerns are much more immediate.
The thing in my case is that this is not actually the first time I've seen one of these lists. I suffered misdiagnosed B12 deficiency for several years, and if you'll check the symptoms (in the moderate to severe category) you'll see that I was likely every bit as miserable and in pain as you are. I did manage to just hold onto a job (something I can't say for when I developed the RSI) but because of the pain and the medications I had to have special arrangements to come in late and split the work day into workable shifts. I was beyond ever having a normal relationship or a normal job, and thought about nothing but my condition for hours a day. I broke down crying in a doctors office when I couldn't get the appointment I wanted, and I was a shell of who I had previously been.
And I was so miserable and had such odd symptoms they did consider fibro. I was sent for a trigger point analysis (I think that was what it was called). Before going I downloaded one of these lists. And you know what? I had had at least half the things on that list. And I definitely did not have fibro. Some symptoms were from the B12 deficiency, but others just normal parts of life or caused by stress (seeing things like shingles on that list stuns me...almost everyone over 20 has had chickenpox, and they've known for over 100 years shingles is triggered by stress. What do they expect of suffering people?).
But in the TMS framework handing out such a list is dangerous, and is, based on the theory, a tool for perpetuation of the symptoms on that list. In my own case, I had a core set of B12 deficiency symptoms to focus on, and was told I didn't have fibro anyway, so I forgot it. But I can only imagine the impact that giving such a list to those in full swing undiagnosed TMS might have.
So those of us here wanted to explain some of how that list might come about. We wanted to offer an alternate understanding of the list.
Most recently I had TMS related "RSI". Yes, the overall pain is not as miserable as "fibro" or B12 deficiency. But I lost my job (which in itself, btw, increases suicide rates). I couldn't do laundry, load the dishwasher or carry grocery bags. I couldn't use the computer or even work the TV remote control normally. I couldn't even hold a book to read as I lay in bed or hold a pen long enough to fill out the forms in the neurologists office. I couldn't use a normal toothbrush or work dental floss.
When I first came to this list I saw people with back pain and I wanted to shout "You fools! You've no idea how much worse my life is than yours. I lost my job and I may never work again. I can't even take care of myself. How DARE you compare yourself to me?!?!?!"
That's what I wanted to say, but I couldn't even type and had barely mastered the voice recognition software. I certainly was not going to be able to master the italics and underlining and bolding of a post like your first one here. So I was largely silenced. But sometimes I hated those people who I thought had no idea of how much worse my suffering was. "Back pain" was an expression I would say to myself with anger, and I would spit out the words in conversation. How could these people with their lowly "back pain" understand MY suffering?
And a long post like yours, formatted, italicized, bolded, underlined? I was a virtual mute, and your ability to express yourself would have been a dream I couldn't imagine. I just checked and my first post was 2 lines long. Even a few weeks in I was asking people how I could journal when I couldn't even hold a pen.
I also know what it feels like to think the whole thing insulting. Almost everyone thinks the whole idea of a psychological angle insulting at first. You clearly are over that first step in thinking Sarno may have something to offer you. But as long as you are taking these issues personally, and not seeing that we all consider ourselves in the same boat, I think you might still have a little way to go. No one here thinks you are any different than the rest of us. We think it likely you have the exact same condition we do, so we have no interest in insulting you. Many of us are, however, interested in insulting aspects of the medical system for a variety of reasons. I'm sorry if we don't always restrain ourselves at the appropriate times.
I wish you luck as I think you are likely on the right track. I hope that you will read Selfridge who I think will answer some of the questions you have which I know was really the topic before we got off track. But your question was why Sarno doesn't address everything on the list, so I think a discussion of the list and why it looks like it does was fair, even if my own comments were clearly not appropriate.
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| sonora sky |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 07:20:17
Thanks TT and Nor, you are right on. My post (and others') were not directed towards Chantal's (or anyone else's) personal experiences of pain. New members must understand that many of us on the board are extremely skeptical of the mainstream medical world, because we believe that it has not helped us with our pain, but only driven us further into our suffering, and further from hope. We try to find alternative ways of healing ourselves and helping others to do the same.
I just wanted to note that "poor judgment" was actually on the list, I didn't make it up to be funny. The TMS gremilin's list I gave was actually comprised mainly of things I've had. I have often thought to myself, "what TMS symptoms will I have today?" because I've had SO MANY, and they often moved around and came in different combinations. I was often (and sometimes still am) at my wit's end with the constant, seemingly unrelentless pain.
Again, the humor in my post was NOT IN ANY WAY laughing AT people in pain. I am person with TMS who has had many of the symptoms on that list, and I am not yet fully healed. But I feel that the seriousness/gravity of our attitudes towards the pain is partially what perpetuates the pain cycle. I think many veteran posters will agree that humor and a degree of lightness about the situation are essential tools in our recovery and healing.
I hope you understand that we are here to help, and the frequent activity on your post only reflects the interest we have in the topic and in helping you to formulate tools to bring yourself back to a state of wellness.
ss |
| Nor |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 05:41:14
Chantal,
I must agree with and repeat Tennis Tom's comment. The humor is certainly not directed at you but at the medical "establishment" (forgive the overused term) for publishing such an inclusive list! Anyone could look at that list and get frightened by it. It seems that modern medicine is so good at that. As you read this forum more, you will understand where the comments came from. NOBODY is laughing at your pain and suffering, believe me.
Just keep reading and not about fibro - about TMS.
Nora |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 02:12:46
quote:
a list like this is actually REASSURING! think about how SAD that is... not funny. You can't imagine it because you have not suffered such extremes, you cannot POSSIBLY understand it being that bad... Lucky you!
I resemble these remarks.
I just wrote a brilliant, articulate, witty and informed reply and the computer ate it!
Bottom line: I had most of the symptoms above except swollen testicles for THIRTY (yes 30!) years.
I am 73% better due to surrendering to Sarnoism and "working the program," even though I was pissed off about the lack of understanding of my long, mostly bedridden suffering. Yes, I understand about the suicide rate.
I have more, but should be sleeping now.
Hand in there, Chantal
xxx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| miche |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 23:01:12
Chantal, you have my compassion, I have lived with fibro for the last fifteen years or so, UNFORTUNETELY I cannot give any advice as I have not been able to make Sarno theories work for me YET , not for lack of trying to apply his priciples either.
There are truly caring people on this board, however I am totally convinced that the majority cannot possibly fathom the degree of pain and fear this syndrome brings about, having never experience it themselves, so sorry you are hurt !
Miche |
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