| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| altherunner |
Posted - 12/09/2006 : 09:13:38
I am reading this book, on and off with a few others I have on my table, and found his spiritual aspects in chapter 6 engaging.
Spiritual work seems to be missing in most books about pain. Page 138, he has a diagram of Daily Circumstances: Spiritually Distressed=
more production of strong negative emotions, and more pain.
Spiritually Healthy= Less production of strong negative emotions, and less pain. I don't belong to any religion, but have been reading
spiritual books for the last couple of years, and have found them to be helpful. Gary Zukav, Eckhart Tolle, Gwen Randall-Young,are all
great reading. I have not been consciously angry like I used to be,
and I feel at peace inside also, so I don't believe I am generating as much internal anger as before. On pages 179,180, he has a diagram of Autonomic overload, and Autonomic relaxation. A good read. Cheers! |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 22:54:54
More objective evidence that religion and TMS can mix:
Quoting Ira Rashbaum M.D.: page 240 THE DIVIDED MIND:
"MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE ORTHODOX JEWISH COMMUNITY"
"Dr. Sarno and I have helped patients from the orthodox Jewish communities of New York City. I have worked mainly with rabbinical students. They are energetic and enthusiastic about TMS and often are referred to me by senior rabbis in their communities. They relate easily to the notion that their chronic neck/back pain is a reaction to their extreme perfectionism and not the long hours studying at a desk." |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 19:15:18
"I have annecdotely, seen on this board, that those who express religious belief seem to do better. It may tie in with haveing a raison d'etre beyond getting caught up in the secular culture's un-bridled drive for success measured soley on a material scale.
Having a belief in a spiritual power, beyond our-self, perhaps is a source of a power that enables those with a belief system to take the leap of faith to trust their own internal powers to heal."
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From page 238 of Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:
Quoteing Ira Rashbaum, M.D.:
"...twelve-steppers have embraced the TMS concept readily and decisively. While Dr. Sarno and I consistently remind patients of the logic behind the diagnosis, twelve-steppers seem to have made a connection between "having faith" in the validity of the diagnosis and giving themselves up to a higher power."
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I absolutely do feel that my quote from Dr. Rashbaum's chapter in TDM substantiates my subjective/annecdotal assertion, with objective, in print evidence, by a TMS doctor, in a book about TMS by Dr. John Sarno.
I never mentioned any particular religion. I feel spirituality and religosity speak to the same place in an individuals heart. Just because a person ascribes to an organized religion and attends services in a place of worship, doesn't mean that they are a war monger. Quakers attend services in designated meeting places and they are pacifists. I think what you are refering to, Art, is instiutional religions that have a priestly class that allies itself with the ruling monarchy like the Aztecs or the ancient Egyptians. In the US, through the precedence of court decisions,(but nowhere in our constitution), we have evolved a hard separation between church and state.
Thanks for allowing me to see the world as I see it. I'm not sure through who else's eyes I could otherwise do that. |
| art |
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 11:38:53
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
From page 238 of Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:
Quoteing Ira Rashbaum, M.D.:
"...twelve-steppers have embraced the TMS concept readily and decisively. While Dr. Sarno and I consistently remind patients of the logic behind the diagnosis, twelve-strppers seem to have made a connection between "having faith" in the validity of the diagnosis and giving themselves up to a higher power."
If this is being offered in support of your position that religious people do better with respect to their TMS, I've got a couple of things to say...
For one thing, twelve step groups are expressly non-denominational. In AA and groups like it, God is not any particular God, but a God, or high power, of each individual's understanding...Secondly, there's nothing in here to advance your notion that religious people, or even spiritual people, do any better with their TMS than others...
Having said all of that, to give you your due, I definitely can see how a generic "higher power" type concept might be quite useful in this regard..I use similar strategies myself..
What got me all hot and bothered TT was not even so much your use of the term religious, but your supposed "anectodal evidence." But there again, you have the right obviously to the world as you see it, and I'm sorry that I responded with guns blazing the way I did...
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| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 17:27:10
Yup. Right on the money TT.
1) Came to believe that our symptoms had become unmanageable
2) Came to believe that a power (or insert: healthy expectation/healing power/the body when left to itself) greater than ourselves could restore us to health and sanity
3) Made a conscious decision to believe in the TMS diagnosis and surrender our minds and our lives to practicing it...
I could go on...
SickAnon, I call this place.
Also, the concept of one day at a time comes out very strongly in Sarno's insistence on patience in the video I just watched.
Hope to see you soon.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/22/2006 : 14:13:28
From page 238 of Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:
Quoteing Ira Rashbaum, M.D.:
"...twelve-steppers have embraced the TMS concept readily and decisively. While Dr. Sarno and I consistently remind patients of the logic behind the diagnosis, twelve-strppers seem to have made a connection between "having faith" in the validity of the diagnosis and giving themselves up to a higher power." |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 09:00:06
Quoteing Shawn:
"Tennis Tom
I am not so convinced that being on this board has not helped you, but I may be incorrect as we have never met. But from my vantage point those who take the time to write up a lot of posts with the view to explaining TMS to others are in fact solidfying their belief regarding the TMS diagnosis within themselves. In other words, in the process of seeking to convince others, you are strengthening your own belief. The teacher has to be more convinced that the student if he/she hopes to convince the student. There is not better way, in my estimation, to learn about something then to write about it."
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Thanks for the post Shawn and I couldn't agree with you more. I have the most posts on this board and that is mainly due to contributing here for a long time. When I was deeply depressed it bothered me and I wanted to tell Dave to ditch the number count but now I don't care.
Being on this board has definitely helped me understand TMS theory and how to put it into practice. By articulating it to others it reinforces it into my memory. Part of the TMS personality is being a "goodist" and by citing the Good Doctor's theory to others it fulfills my "goodism".
Recognizing this goodist trait has helped me to curb it a bit in the realization that it is often a waste of time. Dr. Sarno says in TDM that TMS is a protective device. Why would I want to strip someone of their protection that may have helped them repress terrible trauma in early life. In the section on HYPERTENSION by Dr. Mann there is a good explanation of this.
Few people will relate to TMS as Dr. Sarno says. Most people NEED their pain. Who am I to take their protection away?
I'm just running out of things to say and getting a bit bored repeating myself. I don't get paid for this and thanks to understanding "goodism", I have less of a compulsion to help people who may not want to really be helped.
The "Gloabal Warming" flame war was a bit of a hoot and at 20 pages I wouldn't want to break that record again. It's just time to use my time more selfishly, like paying attention to my Schwab account, which I've been neglecting. I have another 100 pages of TDM to read and I am a slow reader, so I'll be around for awhile.
I like to be direct but some people are in such an accute TMS state that their defenses are up and they feel attacked when inconsistencies in their thoughts and assumptions are pointed out. Dr. Sarno qualifies his patients so that he doesn't waste their time and money when he knows he can't help them (because they need their pain for protection).
This medium is good for clarifying TMS theory by citing pages in Dr. Sarno's books that apply to individual symptoms or refering people to TMS practitioners. It is not so good for "helping" people who realy don't want to be helped. It is near impossible to read a person's inflection, body language and life history from a paragraph or two of a post. Trying to give constructive advice to those who aren't ready for it just gets their defenses up.
In conclusion, Shawn, I'm glad your around and you have a good understanding of the TMS material. Thanks for taking the time to transcribe the relevant quotes, I know it does take time and is often thankless...but that is part of being a TMS goodist, I guess their could be worse things.
Happy Holidays,
tt |
| kevin t |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 03:51:13
I realised I spoke about myself in third person....I should get a ticket for that. *****Warning**** ....people that speak in third person about themselves deserve a timeout from the rest of the class. I am hereby on penalty notice with myself.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<goes to the corner of the room. |
| kevin t |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 03:47:44
Shawn.....if you like to write, may I suggest web publishing? There are a ZILLION different ezines and article submission sites that will take your articles for free and someitmes pay you (if they like it). Just a thought....
Kev
By the way my TMS is getting better daily because Im so busy, but I have a feeling its not really "gone", its just hiding. So now is not the time for me to say that everything is "fine", or atlest I dont think so.
Anyways, thats the update from old KEVINSKI. LAter |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 16:26:23
h2oskier25
Thanks for the feeback. I like to post things here as it helps me also. Do you need to ask me a question about something that you do not want to share with the board?
Shawn |
| h2oskier25 |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 14:14:01
Shawn,
I think its real interesting that you don't provide an email address for people to write to you individually.
Seems to me you should have a blog somewhere for stuff like you just posted.
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| shawnsmith |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 13:16:28
Tennis Tom
I am not so convinced that being on this board has not helped you, but I may be incorrect as we have never met. But from my vantage point those who take the time to write up a lot of posts with the view to explaining TMS to others are in fact solidfying their belief regarding the TMS diagnosis within themselves. In other words, in the process of seeking to convince others, you are strengthening your own belief. The teacher has to be more convinced that the student if he/she hopes to convince the student. There is not better way, in my estimation, to learn about something then to write about it.
As an illustration, here is something I recently wrote up:
The key to mastering a complex topic
and getting an "A" on your assignments
by Shawn Smith
As students or employees we are frequently called upon to write about or work on a variety of topics of which we may have little or no prior knowledge. At first, there is a tendency for most people to say "I don't know anything about that topic so how am I going to write about or work on it?" The problem with such an attitude is that it begins with a negative premise and erects a mental barrier between the task at hand and its completion.
I am of the firm belief that there is a secret of mastering any complex topic, and anyone can do so with great proficiency without possessing any prior knowledge or a great amount of intelligence.
If you know little or nothing about any given topic an effective way to learn is to write about it. But I would even go one step further and say that it is necessary for you to approach your assignment with an attitude that you are going to receive a very good grade or even have your work published.
Now most people will say: "How can I write about something and expect a good grade or even get it published if I don't know a thing about the topic?" I want you to forget for a moment that you don't know anything about your topic. Instead, I invite you to concentrate on the idea that you will write your paper or do your assignment on your chosen topic, that you will receive a really good grade and even have it published.
Furthermore, I encourage you to really believe this message and keep telling it to yourself over and over again. Go even one step further and print out your title page, tape it on the wall where you work and place the grade on it that you wish to receive. Then begin to visualise your article as being already completed and returned with a good grade - or even published- and allow yourself to feel the exhilaration of seeing yourself completing a task well done. I guarantee that when you do this you will begin to generate energy within yourself to both begin and complete your assignment. It is also a much more powerful motivator than saying: "I don't know, so I can't."
Yes I can, and yes I will!!
Once you affirm in your heart and feel the desired outcome in your emotions the statement "yes I can, and yes I will," you will begin your task with great confidence. And when you have confidence in yourself you will do a much greater job. Your eye will always be on the final outcome and will not be bogged down with the details necessary to complete the task.
Of course you still have to do the required leg-work and research, but when you maintain this positive mentality of "yes I can, and yes I will," the task will be much easier to complete. The required information and understanding will easily come together in your mind in a much more complete and coherent fashion, and you will sit back in amazement at the final outcome of your work. You may even ask yourself "did I do that?"
I don't care what the assignment is or its complexity, if you begin with the premise of "yes I can, and yes I will," and really believe it in your heart without any doubts you will achieve that which you set out to do. There will be people around you who will seek to discourage you. They will attempt to convince you that the task is too hard or too complex. But you have the ability and the choice to block out this negativity and defeatist attitudes from your mind. Those around you will look upon you with astonishment as your breeze through your assignments and will wonder what your secret is. They will all think your are brilliant when I fact you have learned a great secret and that is: "We become what we think of ourselves."
Visualisation and believing in yourself are powerful tools, and not just for assignments. They can be used in many aspects of one's life to achieve desired objectives.
It was the Buddha who said "All that we are is the result of what we have thought." Bring into your mind the thought "yes I can, and yes I will," and the reality of this wise saying will begin to manifest in your life.
The poet and essayist Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote: "Beware what you set your heart upon. For it shall surely be yours." Do you want get back a "C" paper or an "A" paper? Apply the above principles and write me a thank you note when you get your next "A" or have your work published.
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| h2oskier25 |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 10:29:45
quote:
Get in on the ground level, this will be a very limited offering.
I'm in. Let's get to work on the e-prospectus later on this week.
Alexis, loved your post about KevinT's comments. Boy, comments, was not the word I wanted to use there, but I'm trying to practice the Socratic rules of discussion.
TT, when you leave this board just tell me where you're going. I'm not ashamed of the fact that I find you incredibly entertaining, humorous and insightful.
Cheers,
Beth |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/17/2006 : 09:45:04
quote:
Originally posted by altherunner
Tom - If you got bored, you could always start an online church, and offer absloution of sins AND guilt, for a small fee, of course.
Al that's a good idea, thank you very much. I am forming a limited partnership and issueing an IPO in the near future. We will produce an in-fomercial, a proprietary line of TMS supplements, TMS orthotics, a ten page pamphlet fully explainng TMS principles and a magic-wand.
All one will need to do is wave the magic wand over their TMS symptom spot, (if it's a TMS/affective equivalent, then wave wand over the forehead), close eyes, click heals three times and say: "TMS go away, TMS go way, TMS go away."
I am offering this to my close friends on the TMS Board first, so we may all prosper together and fly-away to Tahiti. Look for an e-blast in the near future. All funds must be denominated in US funds and deposited into the TT TTMS TTRUSTT ACCTT in Lagos Nigeria.
Get in on the ground level, this will be a very limited offering. |
| altherunner |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 17:36:14
Tom - If you got bored, you could always start an online church, and offer absloution of sins AND guilt, for a small fee, of course. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 09:34:52
I would not be leaving because I am mad. I am not mad, more amused. This medium, the message board, is good for somethings and not good for others. It's good for sharing information on TMS resources and theory but not so good for understanding people's personal big pictures. In person, or even by phone, is a much better method of communicating body language and inflection, which are as big a factors in communictions as text or speech, maybe greater.
After all, we have been given TMS physical pain to communicate our emotional pain that we have been trained to repress. When I've tried communicating with some who are in an accute state of TMS, pointing out some inconsistencies, it can be misinterpreted. Someone in accute TMS, has their defenses up and feels under attack when questioned. From this side of the screen it is near impossible to gage someone's psyhic state. Therefore it is a fools game to try to do therapy over a message board. I am not a psychtherapist nor do I wish to be one.
I came to this site for information on TMS and it has served that purpose very well for me. I feel I have a good understanding of the topic now. I probably spend an hour or two a day here and at this point it is unnecessay for me personaly.
When I had my significant TMS/affective symptom, significant depression, I didn't get better by posting on this board. I saw a professional for it and got better in a reasonable period of time, about six months.
During that period I didn't even read the board and only came back when I was much improved. In retrospect, I don't think posting here would have helped ME.
Having the knowledge/penicilin, that depression is a TMS affective/equivalent was very valuable and I have shared that here many times. TMS knowledge helped me return to functioning much faster. Pain/TMS and depression go hand in hand like the human condition.
By now, most symptoms have been fully covered and are easily searchable in the archives. There are four books by the Good Doctor on the topic, books by a few of his peers and his students, audios and videos. Dr. Sarno says in his books that it's good to hear and see the information out loud in the lectures. Anyone who wants to learn about TMS has all the resources available to them with a little research. If they have the knowdledge to use a computer they have the tools to find TMS resources. The Tarpit Yoga site also has a comprehensive section on TMS and all the known practitioners of it. It's interesting that the yoga teacher who started that site has made the decision to become an MD.
I have neglected my personal affairs and I could use those two hours a day to catch-up. I feel I've said as much as I can here for now and then some. It's getting a bit repetitive, I'm not a doctor and I'm not a saint.
There are a number of people here who have solid understandings of TMS and it has been encouraging to see them develop. Many have come here in pain and made a rapid transformation to TMS knowledge sharers.
The off-topic threads are a bit of comic relief, like any good Shakespearian tragedy needs on ocassion. It has taught me that having a "we" versus "them" belief system is an important part of the human psyche and a wonderful distraction from TMS. Dr. Sarno has made the very interesting conclusion in TDM, that psychosomatic pain is a PROTECTOR rather than a punisher as Freud thought. That idea should give one a whole new perspective on their pain.
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| Singer_Artist |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 07:39:18
Hi Tom,
I agree with Art..I don't understand why you would consider leaving the board because you guys don't see eye to eye..You both have helped alot of people on here, (I am one of them)..and I would be sad to see you go..I have tried to make FULL amends with you after some past disagreements we have had..but things never really got fully on track..I wish we could all just get along, even if we disagree sometimes..Your views and knowledge of TMS is very vast and you are recovered..I don't see you or anyone as a detriment on here or as the enemy..Our political/religious differences are really of no consequence on this board..I almost left the board once when i felt ganged up on, but I am glad i chose to stay..I hope you make the same choice..and i hope you start replying to me more like you used to..:))
Happy Holidays,
Karen |
| ndb |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 00:14:17
I think there can be different ways of looking at why we succeed at beating TMS. I'm not spiritual, but I'm not a materialist either. I feel I did well with TMS because I find it easy to embrace new and sometimes abstract concepts (to say what I'm really feeling...because I was smart). I think many people on the board might have the same feeling about themselves, though they aren't commenting. And I like science fiction :), and this is the closest I've come in real life to it.
Given my personality, I would never have succeeded at it by trying to become more spiritual, but others might. I do tend think that gaining spirituality is an extra (and not necessary in all cases) step to a real understanding of our selves. And as far as I can see, it is an understanding of our real selves, emotions and motivations that is the key to overcoming TMS. Spirituality may be a *means* to achieving this. |
| art |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 17:40:21
quote:
I've set a cut-off date for myself to leave this forum after I finnish TDM. (
TT! Why are you so upset? You've got more support around this issue, and perhaps the other issues we've discussed than I do...If I was unduly harsh, and I suppose I was, I apologize. I disagree with you more often than not, but so what? I'm just a guy with a laptop..One small opinion amongst the multitudes... |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 17:37:33
I think it's interesting, and key to recovery, to learn the beliefs we have, and things we do, that put pressure on our inner selves. Then we can decide if we REALLY want to keep on having that belief, or doing that thing, whether it's worth it. We can stay in relationships with people we love even though they may frustrate and anger us -- we know honestly where we stand and how to deal with it, and it's worth it. We can decide to keep up a cleaning routine if we really like having a clean house more than the amount of pressure it makes to have to do it.
Likewise, we can decide if we REALLY want to think that we've got to know the answers to the difficult problems, or know all the world leaders, or all the American presidents. We can start by giving ourselves permission to feel the pressure that comes from the belief or activity. And eventually if that pressure is too much and the reward is not enough, I think we will discard that belief or activity.
This may also relate to "How much can we change?" I don't think we change by "trying to change", but by allowing ourselves to become who we really are, and do what we really want.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 14:07:34
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
I agree with you Al, spirituality is missing not just in medicine and pain management, but also in our culture. I feel this is probably a great source of the increase of TMS in Western industrial society--who needs G-D when we have computers, and gps navagation.
It's just a natural outgrowth of our increasingly secular society. Christmas is even being taken out of Christmas. Little did the person who came up with the contraction "x-mas" know what they were fortelling. I'm not a Christian but I still enjoyed the spirit of the holiday and the respite it offered. Department stores our now even opening on Thanksgiving to get a jump on "black friday"--what a joyous term that is. All our holidays are loseing their original significance and purpose and just becoming excuses to party hardy.
I have annecdotely, seen on this board, that those who express religious belief seem to do better. It may tie in with haveing a raison d'etre beyond getting caught up in the secular culture's un-bridled drive for success measured soley on a material scale.
Having a belief in a spiritual power, beyond our-self, perhaps is a source of a power that enables those with a belief system to take the leap of faith to trust their own internal powers to heal.
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I bumped this up because I don't even remember exactly what started all the ruckus. I thought I was expressing a fairly benign opinion about TMS, religion and sprituality during the holiday season, that celebrates that sort of stuff. I have made a point of keeping out of Art's posts and I invite him to do the same with mine.
So the next thing I know is he's calling be full of b.s, that my opinions are nonsense, and I'm full of crap, etc. I don't think Art is practicing the Socratic method of argument with that kind of rhetoric.
Let me make it clear that it was my SUBJECTIVE opinion. I have been here a while, read the books with attention numerous times, seen the videos, audios, consulted with TMS MD's, Dr. Sarno and Donald Dubin. I have no compunction about offering a personal conclusion on the subject of this site, TMS and whatever I feel may be germaine to it.
If Art or anyone else objects to this, tough. On other sites this is merely called "offering my 2 cents". Some of my other conclusions, are, after being here for quite a while and not having any current TMS symptoms, is that some people with TMS are in such a dump they don't have much of a sense of humor. If you have TMS, you are better off spending your time reading the TMS books than hanging out here and getting all worked-up and picking sides based upon perceived political beliefs. Don't waste time being a psycholgical, self-help junky reading all those OTHER books until you've fixed your TMS problem--they are distractions from TMS work. If you have an accute case of TMS, find a psychotherapist who practices according to the Good Doctor's recommendation--this message board ain't gonna' cure you.
I've set a cut-off date for myself to leave this forum after I finnish TDM. (I'm a slow reader so don't a few people start partying yet and I reserve the right to change my mind too). In the interim I'll do what I've always done, just contribute my 2 cents worth. |
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