| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JaneLeslie |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 10:44:11
Hi TMS gang,
I am now the unwilling and unwitting victim of a TMS "paradigm clash" and felt I needed to share this with interested folks. It would seem that there is now a theoretical divergence going on in the TMS field. This was made clear to me this week when I went to see a TMS pscyhologist (Ron Siegel) in Boston and also checked in iwth my regular rehab MD here on Cape Cod, Jay Rosenfeld. Dr. Siegel is a charming guy and very smart. He has written a book called BackSense and has overcome his own TMS. He coaches and educates people about TMS and is a therapist. I have seen him twice. His focus, however, is on behavioral medicine, that is, on stress and it's effect on TMS. As a result he does not (seem to)"buy" that anxiety is an "equivalent" (as Sarno would say) but that it is THE driving force behind TMS symptoms. Now, why does this matter? Because Dr. Siegel and Dr. Rosenfeld have very different treatment plans. Dr. S. wants people to "live their lives like they have no symptoms" and that is essentially it. They are encouraged to journal about feelings, but during my therapy session with him he was not too interested in my personal "root causes" or feelings. He thinks that if people work too hard on getting well, they will not get well because they will pressure and stress themselves. He thinks that working to hard at TMS can backfire. (Of course that makes a TMS patient crazy!) He told me about a patient he had who was in terrible pain for two years while working with him but then finally got better when she resumed "normal life." (He doesn't see as a problem that someone should take two years to get well in TMS therapy---maybe it isn't!) My doc here (Dr. R.) doesn't agree with behavioral medicine because it is stuck on stress causing all or most of TMS. He says that while we all have stress only some of us get ill with TMS because of these stuck feelings and issues. His treatment plan is much more aggressive. He uses words like "the ucs. mind" while Dr. Siegel doesn't. I think that with any groundbreaking theory there is an orthodoxy and then a reformation. Dr. Siegel is part of the reforming group and doesn't ever discuss Sarno. He is into zen meditation and other stress-reduction. Dr. R., on the other hand, is part of the orthodoxy and is a Sarno devotee. Both doctors see good results as far as I can tell. Which is correct? You can't really believe in both because there are some BIG differences between the two theories and approaches. The treatment, for one, is quite different. Of course there IS some overlap but you are basically stuck choosing. I am still too new at this to know which one to go for, but I can't do both. It is making me nuts! I wonder if in the beginning (if someone is say, stuck in bed) it can be reassuring to know that one's symptoms are caused by stress, but that once you are better enough (like I am at this point) one has to "go for it" in a more intense, Sarno-esque fashion. I don't know.
I could use your thoughts and reassurance.
Blessings! |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 11/28/2006 : 10:49:38
Amir's book is good for unsetting the buttons. I used his methods to get rid of my work-environment conditioning for arm pain.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
| JaneLeslie |
Posted - 11/28/2006 : 08:20:15
This is a very good point. At first I didn't understand, but now I think I do Wavy soul. We are supposed to graduate from this whole thing.
If we become too dependent on it we may be sunk...! Another paradox.
Today I am reflecting on the nature of conditioning. For years my fibro pain would flare under the most ridiculous conditions. For instance, when it was cloudy out I swear I had more pain! today I am trying to figure out how I may be doing this in many many ways and stop it. The journalling is one thing, but there are many automatic buttons already set I think. Both have to be attended to.
Thanks,
Jane |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 11/28/2006 : 01:34:40
"Enabling in the name of support is not the same as helping.
The purpose of this board is not to be a support group for TMS sufferers,"
Yeah!
Although I think it's a fine line, and as Niels Bohr said, "the opposite of every great truth is another great truth"...
I certainly noticed that other "support groups" I explored over my LOOOONG history of symptoms were just that - groups supporting me in having that symptom. The Fibromyalgia Support Group for example. Yeah, great if you want support in having fibromyalgia...
I'm all for kindness and helping each other through the doubts and integration of the material. And it's also - to me at least - quintessentially a no bull**** approach.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| JaneLeslie |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 16:30:33
I think you are right Hilary in that a "stressor" causes the rage which causes the repression, etc. But also can't present stressful situations make TMS worse?
I mean when we feel "stressed" in every day life is it because of the specific incident that caused the repression or is it more general than that? Both?
The brain must NOT know the difference between past and present stress/anger and the present stress triggers the old. The reservoir gets too big I guess.
What Dr. Siegel kept saying to me was that anxiety keeps the sx. going because of fear. I am sure that is true, but there was no language I could grab on to to "get" his model. No reference to the ucs. rage, etc. No real treatment plan.
Only a TMS person would ask these questions!
Jane
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| Hilary |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 13:53:02
I thought the chain went STRESS ----> RAGE (UNCON EMOTION)-----> TMS SYMPTOM.
The stress causes the rage, which is repressed and causes the symptom.
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 12:26:35
Good timing JohnnyG, or maybe bad timing. In Dr. Sarno's newest book THE DIVIDED MIND, there is an entire chapter devoted to stress and TMS. It's chapter 5, written by Dr. Samuel J. Mann, M.D., a Sarno associate. It's titled: "Hypertension and the Mindbody Connection: A New Paradigm". It's the difinitive word from a TMS perspective on the topic. The bad news is I just started reading it and I don't know the answer yet.
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| johnnyg |
Posted - 11/27/2006 : 09:38:05
Thanks for starting this topic. Back when I read "back sense", I sensed that there was something being "added" to Sarno's TMS theory. But I think I'm going to come down on the side that they have not added to the theory, but merely focused more on outside factors that may affect TMS and that may help some people with TMS but not others.
I wish someone would get Dr. Sarno's response to the question "Does Stress cause TMS?" I don't think there is very much consensus or understanding about what stress really is, because it has physical and mental components. My conclusion is that stress is not the root or most base cause of TMS, but it is also is NOT a symptom or equivalent of TMS. Therefore, you may find people (professionals included) saying as a shorthand "stress causes TMS".
For example, when a TMS doctor or thereapist asks you what is going on in your life right now, he is not trying to find out if you are repressing childhood memories of rape, he is looking for some "stressor" that may be "causing" or triggering a tms symptom.
The chain goes like this UNCON EMOTIONS --> STRESS--> TMS SYMPTOM.
So don't you all think stress triggers TMS symptoms? I sure do. In addition to triggering them, it makes them worse. This is really all Dr. Siegel is saying. To think of the two approaches as diametrically opposed and you have to pick one misses the point. In this society we focus to much on breaking things apart and not on seeing the interrelationship or harmony between seemingly competing theories.
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/25/2006 : 09:44:58
Thanks for the explanation RS. To put it bluntly, you have only been here a short time, while I have been here for years. I have thoughtfully read seeen, and listened to every book, video, audio on the subject of TMS numerous times, word for word, with great attention. There's a chance I might know something about this topic. Perhaps not every word I post applies to your situtation directly, but if it's about TMS it applies to you. Why not just sit back and learn from the material even if it doesn't seem to apply to you--at some point it might.
This board is not the best place to get "cured" from TMS. Sitting down with Dr. Sarno's books, video's and audios IS. That's the most economical and efficient method since "knowledge" is the penicillin for TMS.
If that isn't working then a TMS trained psycho-therapist is in order. If that doesn't work then thank the celestial archetect for giving you TMS physical symptoms as a protection from rage exploding through the unconscious/conscious membrane of your mindbody that may result in personal embarrasemnt and loss of "friends".
What I have seen from years of observing this board, and myself, TMS sufferers never think THEIR SYMPTOMS are high-lighted enough. For the purposes of this board the symptom is irelevant, the thoughts are what are important. The more one talks about the physical ,the further they are from a solution to their pain, (if they actually want one).
So, to come full circle RS, THANK YOU for being the catalyst for my thoughts this bright morning. Yes you are right, little of this is addressed directly to you. But how could I possibly understand your needs from a few paragraphs posted here? It takes a reputable psycho-therapist, two 50 minute sessions, a week for maybe six months to get basic info on a patient. That's why the extinct family doctor could also be a TMS healer--he called on you at your house, new your family, your neighbors and had an overview of your big picture. Today you are a symptom on an assembly line of socialized medicine.
Enabling in the name of support is not the same as helping.
The purpose of this board is not to be a support group for TMS sufferers, although it mostly functions like that. I'm here to better understand TMS theory, which can be at times very obtuse, (but is mostly quite simple). Ocassionaly I try to set someone back on track when they appear to have misunderstood their Sarno and put them back on the path again.
If at times I don't appear genteele, it's because I don't get paid for this and I'd rather be smacking tennis balls, sitting in the hot-tub or doing something personally enriching like paying attention to my Schwab account and watching Mad Cramer.
So hope this helps you, or somone else, like it helps me,
No offense,
Let's all be friends,
tt
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| Redsandro |
Posted - 11/25/2006 : 07:00:43
This wasn't exactly the message I was meaning to communicate. Your posts have a valuable part. I gain knowledge from posts that aren't even directed to me. But you seem to focus a lot of your time on information that is in my opinion beside the point. I notice when reading a lot of a post and feeling it didn't really relate to the wonder that made me post in the first place, and I have my bad way of letting this know. I have this effect on lots of people. So I understand. I'm sorry tt for offending you. Thanks for the time you spent on me so far.
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 18:43:47
quote Redsandro:
"I notice you are so much into details of semantics and interpretation that given some of the personality traits that are common for TMSsers you'd be the perfect candidate for TMS.
You are right about what you say after quoting me in the emphasized words, but I know that. I was talking about people around me who praise this TMS thing."
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OK Red, it's becoming increasingly obvious to me that my remarks to you rub you the wrong way. I've taken valuable time out of my day to try to impart some of the knowledge I've gained about TMS and rather than thanking me you choose to insult me. The quotes I cited from Sarno took me sometime to type and proof-read. Obviously they have fallen on deaf and unapprecaiative ears. I am having a difficult time with your English and that is probably contributing to the miscommunications. But the message is clear from your end. You know it all about TMS. So I will save myself a lot of time and not think about your TMS and try to help you.
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| Redsandro |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 13:49:05
I notice you are so much into details of semantics and interpretation that given some of the personality traits that are common for TMSsers you'd be the perfect candidate for TMS. 
You are right about what you say after quoting me in the emphasized words, but I know that. I was talking about people around me who praise this TMS thing.
Today I made some deals to do important work next week and I worked half a day today. The pain skyrocketed, but only in my right arm. This sucks major ehhs, for now I've put some responsibility in my bagage.
The nice thing is that I am now 100% convinced this is all TMS. I read a few more chapters of Fred Amir's book, during which my pain shifted to my upper arm! Then I went to the computer and typing some stuff.. now it's shifting back. So it's the TMS inner gangster stuff, I'm confident. But STILL NO CONTROL. That makes me worried about the responsibility I take on, if I will be able to cope with the pain that still seems out of control. Maybe it will be severe, maybe it will be completely gone. I bet THAT plays a role in this, but this is also the cause of the worry. A vicious circle once more.
I'll keep on reading and waiting, reading back my writings at times I was doing great, because that's cool. 
Now I realise I completely neglected the subject, going off-topic. Sorry people 
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 09:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by Redsandro
I have that too! Actually quite some lines are about stuff that's simply not true for me, which is why I remained skeptical and didn't believe it 100%. Then suddenly one day, the majority of the pain was gone! This was the proof for me. But when I have flare-ups, I can't help that I'm thinking a tiny little bit that these weeks that made me feel better was the story's placebo effect, since because I doubted so many lines in the book it would be plausible..
My reasoning sais since so many people are cured it's for real, but I guess the inner doubts go away only when I'm cured for a long placebo-extending time. This little bit of doubt interferes with my recovery, I know that.. but it worked before!
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away.
RS,
The number of people "cured" of TMS in the general population is not "many", it is miniscule. The number of people cured who are screened and accepted into the Good Doctor's program is MANY .
That is because Dr. Sarno, after 30 years of clinical studies, has learned to recognize the personality/psychology types that will benefit from his progran and those for whom it will be a waste of their time and money. It is no different than a surgeon screening patients for whether they are good cnadidates for surgery and refusing those who are not physicaly up to it. The few of us on the planet who have been fortunate to discover TMS knowledge should be eternaly grateful.
If you had a real injury, the placebo effect you refer to would not make the pain go away for weeks. Try breaking your arm or severly spraining your ankle and see if you can "think" that pain away. You did give yourself a "placebo" effect cure--your mind repaired your psychosomatic induced pain--that is the desired effect. But then years of your prvious patterned thinking from your unconscious (gremlin country) overcame your new knowledge--not enough practice or patience. Years of nocebos overcame a few weeks of TMS placebos. Back to the practice wall. 
TMS knowledge made your pain go away, but life marches on and your psyche reverted to its homeostasis (comfortable status quo) and the pain retured. As I quoted from Dr. Sarno, in a previous post, he recommends consistent practiceing TMS thinking and patience.
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| JaneLeslie |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 08:14:13
Yes, I wonder if I have not healed fully, in part, because of doubt of TMS. That is why I work so hard at it, but of course you can make yourself nuts too.
Jane |
| Redsandro |
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 03:57:28
I have that too! Actually quite some lines are about stuff that's simply not true for me, which is why I remained skeptical and didn't believe it 100%. Then suddenly one day, the majority of the pain was gone! This was the proof for me. But when I have flare-ups, I can't help that I'm thinking a tiny little bit that these weeks that made me feel better was the story's placebo effect, since because I doubted so many lines in the book it would be plausible..
My reasoning sais since so many people are cured it's for real, but I guess the inner doubts go away only when I'm cured for a long placebo-extending time. This little bit of doubt interferes with my recovery, I know that.. but it worked before!
____________
Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
| PeterW |
Posted - 11/22/2006 : 21:41:33
I'm glad it helped Jane. I suspect that my therapist just nailed a lot of us! |
| JaneLeslie |
Posted - 11/22/2006 : 17:30:34
Ouch! I think you nailed me Peter! The perfectionism must be a distraction from the emotions. It's the "intellectual" defense. I find it easier to see it in others than in myself. The end result is that you come to few conclusions but go around in circles endlessly. It's so silly because our understanding of many things is so incomplete anyway. We only have so many brain cells and we are not super-human beings. And yet I have trouble just following my gut on so many things.
Things need to be constantly "reasoned" which really isn't too reasonable after all. Think about how we on this message board just keep reasoning this whole TMS thing to death! That's not bad mind you but it can be obsessive.
Nice pasttime if you don't want to face something!
Thanks for that nice insight.
Jane |
| PeterW |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 22:32:45
Thought I'd add an insight that I arrived at with my therapist today that might relate to this thread.
Being the personality type that picks apart details of everything and anything, I can easily get up caught in the type of question that started this thread (and aren't most of us probably) - ie: Which view of TMS is the correct one?
I can end out debating with myself in circles about this, or political issues, philosophical stands, religous viewpoints, whether or not I agree with Sarno 100%, or the Law of Attraction 100%, or any other theory or paradigm that attempts to explain pain/illness and/or the cosmos. Comparing and contrasting them all. Endlessly searching for 'the' explanation that makes perfect sense.
As Wavy Soul said, "I have to say that my whole life has felt like a continual journey through competing paradigms. AAaargh!"
All fun and useful up to a point, but potentially a major trap.
Insight: Not only does this obsessive analysing distract us from our emotions, but it can also be another offshoot of perfectionism.
I like to pick apart the LOA because there are a few offshoots from that philosophy, when taken to an extreme, that dont work for me. And I bet that a lot of people read Sarno, find themselves described on many pages, but discard the whole thing because there's a sentence they could argue with say on page 132 paragraph three (or whatever). I did a lot of that initially. Still can do it sometimes. See, it's gotta be perfect, and I've got to understand and agree completely with something in order to fully embrace it. Otherwise I'm inclined to discard it all, even the good parts.
(An aside: I wonder how many do that with their personal relationships too??)
But of course, no one theory or philosophy is going to be 100% perfect for all people and all situations, but we can drive our perfectionistic selves crazy expecting them to be. As Dave said, different viewpoints are simply metaphors.
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| cheeryquery |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 04:50:23
Littlebird, I'd pm you if I could but I wanted to share what I'm doing with my little birds (canaries) when I had a non-tms (for once) health problem and couldn't keep up with the mess. I bought a big bag of pine shavings and threw half into the cage. Then, every day or two, I threw in a couple of handfuls of clean shavings and sometimes I scooped out any clumped up mess. So far, so good. It's been over 3 month and the cage smells great and the birds love the litter which they sometimes peck around in. One of these days, I'll toss the litter on the compost pile and start over.
I also feed my canaries HUGE amounts of fresh greens. It is unbelievable how much they will eat and they just love it. One bird is nearly 10 years old which is pretty good for a canary, I think. This leads me to wonder if most caged birds are missing out on something important to their diet.
Sorry to the rest of you for getting off topic. |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 22:49:37
Thanks ACL, I checked it out on Amazon and plan to include it on my next book order. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 21:54:52
I have a book about anxiety in which the author says that people use the phrase "What you're doing makes me nervous" when really it is making them angry, but they don't know it, because they are trained not to feel angry, and being anxious is more acceptable.
I have been amazed how well that book lines up with Sarno. It is Women and Anxiety by Helen DeRosis, if anyone is interested. (It applies to men just about as well, I think.)
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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