| Author |
 Topic  |
|
JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
 Posted - 11/16/2006 : 10:44:11
|
Hi TMS gang,
I am now the unwilling and unwitting victim of a TMS "paradigm clash" and felt I needed to share this with interested folks. It would seem that there is now a theoretical divergence going on in the TMS field. This was made clear to me this week when I went to see a TMS pscyhologist (Ron Siegel) in Boston and also checked in iwth my regular rehab MD here on Cape Cod, Jay Rosenfeld. Dr. Siegel is a charming guy and very smart. He has written a book called BackSense and has overcome his own TMS. He coaches and educates people about TMS and is a therapist. I have seen him twice. His focus, however, is on behavioral medicine, that is, on stress and it's effect on TMS. As a result he does not (seem to)"buy" that anxiety is an "equivalent" (as Sarno would say) but that it is THE driving force behind TMS symptoms. Now, why does this matter? Because Dr. Siegel and Dr. Rosenfeld have very different treatment plans. Dr. S. wants people to "live their lives like they have no symptoms" and that is essentially it. They are encouraged to journal about feelings, but during my therapy session with him he was not too interested in my personal "root causes" or feelings. He thinks that if people work too hard on getting well, they will not get well because they will pressure and stress themselves. He thinks that working to hard at TMS can backfire. (Of course that makes a TMS patient crazy!) He told me about a patient he had who was in terrible pain for two years while working with him but then finally got better when she resumed "normal life." (He doesn't see as a problem that someone should take two years to get well in TMS therapy---maybe it isn't!) My doc here (Dr. R.) doesn't agree with behavioral medicine because it is stuck on stress causing all or most of TMS. He says that while we all have stress only some of us get ill with TMS because of these stuck feelings and issues. His treatment plan is much more aggressive. He uses words like "the ucs. mind" while Dr. Siegel doesn't. I think that with any groundbreaking theory there is an orthodoxy and then a reformation. Dr. Siegel is part of the reforming group and doesn't ever discuss Sarno. He is into zen meditation and other stress-reduction. Dr. R., on the other hand, is part of the orthodoxy and is a Sarno devotee. Both doctors see good results as far as I can tell. Which is correct? You can't really believe in both because there are some BIG differences between the two theories and approaches. The treatment, for one, is quite different. Of course there IS some overlap but you are basically stuck choosing. I am still too new at this to know which one to go for, but I can't do both. It is making me nuts! I wonder if in the beginning (if someone is say, stuck in bed) it can be reassuring to know that one's symptoms are caused by stress, but that once you are better enough (like I am at this point) one has to "go for it" in a more intense, Sarno-esque fashion. I don't know.
I could use your thoughts and reassurance.
Blessings! |
|
|
Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 16:43:25
|
Hi Jane,
Perhaps the treatment that works best depends on the individual. I recall that in The Divided Mind one of the other contributing doctors mentioned their belief that cognitive behavioral therapy is not as helpful as insight therapy, because it doesn't dig into the the past angers but focuses on changing current thought patterns.
I think that every one of us, doctors included, tend to interpret the world and the actions of others through our own experiences, so it's not surprising that different doctors see the causes and treatments in different ways. It can be hard to realize that other people's perspectives aren't always the same as our own and that works best for us may not work as well for someone else.
Do you have a gut feeling about one treatment being better for your needs than the other?
Corey |
 |
|
|
Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 17:17:17
|
Pherhaps indeed the treatment depends on the individual. I keep thinking now and than that this whole TMS theory and treatment might just be bullocks. It works, but it might actually work very differently from what we are made to believe. Kind of like the bible, from a non believer point of view. Maybe it's just cleverly written by someone but many people need to believe it in order to want to live, feel purpose, feel love(d).. But maybe the bible is true and non-believers are finally happy by new theory that explains afterlife without Godly stuff.. or just something else that makes sense.
People reason differently. And since that reasoning is based upon 95% of unconscious brain activity (thanks again to who posted that), I tend to believe both methods can work if it's right for you.
____________
Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
|
|
|
JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 17:45:29
|
Great responses! Thanks!!! The people on this forum are smart.
The problem with the cognitive-behavioral/stress management guy is that he seems a little disconnected from the outcome. The Sarno guy seems much more invested in my "going for the gold" so I guess I prefer him.
Thanks for your responses. More food for thought. Very interesting reference to the Bible! Good metaphore. |
|
|
|
tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 20:32:52
|
| Sounds like you will be the guinea pig. Thanks for doing the science for us. Keep us informed. |
|
|
|
Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 00:34:05
|
Personally, after a zillion years of working on my "stress" and also taking a "Zen" approach to life, I've found nothing that works like 1) repudiating the diagnosis 2) noticing that the symptoms are trying to DISTRACT me from feelings and 3) doing something with those feelings.
I have my own opinions on what that "something" in part (3) should be, but I don't want to add to the mix here. I guess I'm kinda voting for Sarno in this context.
Good luck Jane Leslie. I have to say that my whole life has felt like a continual journey through competing paradigms. AAaargh!
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
|
|
|
JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 04:28:11
|
Thanks Wavy Soul,
I WOULD like to know what you do with those feelings if you check back in.
Good input. Thanks. I will probably go back to the Sarno "camp"
and work a little harder at this.
Jane |
|
|
|
Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 05:38:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by JaneLeslie
I WOULD like to know what you do with those feelings if you check back in.
Me too actually, since I am stuck at that point I like to see other people's vision on that.
____________
Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
|
|
|
JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 13:40:17
|
| I will try to keep this post alive a little longer. I would love more input from folks who have an opinion! |
|
|
|
Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 19:39:20
|
Dear Jane and Company,
Hmm, very interesting. I can see both sides of this---diagnostically AND treatment-wise, I guess b/c I recognize that both your docs' protocols are leading to my recovery. (Jane, Some of what I am about to share you already know from some of our offline e-mails ;o)
At the height of my FM pain, I was in absolute denial of my unc. and negative emotions. After I learned about TMS (Sarno) I started asking myself different questions, like, "Even though I doubt it, is something in this situation upsetting me?" (At the time my daughter was about to begin kindergarten.) Before I asked myself that question, I was assuming that it had NOTHING to do with her beginning school. I didn't think that my TMS had anything to do with the abuse and oppression I experienced in my own early schooling.
I was oblivious until I challenged myself--outside what I "thought" were my beliefs--"Is THIS what is upsetting to me?" As soon as I asked that, I began to cry inconsolably for hours, on and off for days. Perhaps I had tapped into the thing that was causing me the pain and anxiety. Because it's unc. I will never know for sure.
Whatever the cause, an emotional sadness had to run a course through me, looking like major depression (crying all the time), but I embraced it instead of looking for my usual for ways out (food, denial, over-exercise, self-imposed criticism, medical-book reading, constantly doing things for other people, Internet research, doctor's visits, medication etc.).
The more I acknowledged my emotional disconnection, the better physically I became, but the sadder emotionally. I was not frightened by the sadness b/c I believed in my heart that it would not last forever. I understood that it needed to process thru me in order to BECOME a part of me.
During this course of challenging my status quo, and allowing my new-found emotions to flow, I did nothing to limit my actions or physical involvement with things. (Even though I often hurt like bloo%* hell!!!!) I renounced the medical Dxes given me, and medical treatment and surgery offered. I started running again, and ran thru the pain--up hill, taking my brain back!
I volunteered at my daughter's new school--enduring panic attack and blood pressure spikes, migraines ... I did it anyway. It was like looking at the devil himself. I witnessed myself and the emotions I experienced, and pressed thru. I developed a compassion for myself as a human being--and I started to recognize how my past likely led to some of my limiting patterns and behaviors, and led to my pain.
Now when I have pain, I do not let it stop me doing anything (Sarno-school), but I also beg questions of myself when the pain comes up, that I think I already know the answer to (perhaps Siegel school--cognitive ?). For me, it was doing BOTH that freed me.
Possibly THE most significant contributing factor to getting well was my belief that MY METHOD would free me from physical suffering. I pieced my method together from amazing ideas from our forum; from TMS, fibro, & AOS books; journaling; psychoanalysis info; dreams etc.
I knew that since my body and brain created the pain, I also had within me the ability to stop it: I could and would endure, and today I am happy to report, I am pain free. I get twitches but it's kindof like the monster that keeps coming back at the end of a scary movie--dwindling, last roar attempts at psyching me out. They don't work.
Because there is so much that we don't know about brain function, and b/c there are so many unique ways to tackle TMS, we get caught up in the "words" that we (our forum), TMS doctors, and authors use to outline "the right" process for recovery. "Words" only point to a protocol or process, but the words themselves are not the actual meaning. (This sounds very Eckhart Tolle--for Tolle fans--doesn't it?)
To play off all "The Secret" (www.thesecret.tv )talk here of late, we do create our reality and the secret to TMS recovery is that we must believe we are capable of complete personal recovery. If a TMSer is not getting better, perhaps ask if you believe it is possible to get out of pain. If you don't believe, try to get to the root of why not. What else in your life--besides the pain--perpetuates b/c of your pain? What ulterior purpose does TMS serve you? Does it mean you no longer have to do the dishes? go to parties? see your mother-in-law??? This is tough: I know b/c I was there. Find out why you don't believe you can get better. Address it, correct it, write it down and burn it!!!!! You can get better.
Sorry if this was too lengthy. I share this to offer "words" about my personal journey back from TMS physical hell. Perhaps some of what happened to me might help others create their way to recovery. In my heart I believe we all have the ability to recover and stop TMS pain: There is no reason stronger than our human potential to heal.
Blessings
>|< Penny
Non illigitamus carborundum. |
Edited by - Penny on 11/17/2006 20:14:02 |
|
|
|
Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 20:31:21
|
Penny,
Thank you for sharing your experience. I can't quite verbalize exactly how it helps me, but it does. I know I am reluctant to let the emotions out of the box, because I fear I'll be even less able to function then and I'm already struggling to do life's basic tasks. I appreciate the encouragement.
Corey |
|
|
|
Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 20:48:03
|
Corey, Is your LittleBird after the Annie Lennox song by the same name? If you haven't heard it, you MUST!!!! At least read the lyrics ... It's one of my all-time fave songs, and everytime I see a post from you, the song goes thru my head. Many of your posts have lifted me, and I am grateful. Thank you.
I look up to the little bird
That glides across the sky
He sings the clearest melody
It makes me want to cry
It makes me want to sit right down
And cry, cry, cry
I walk along the city streets
So dark with rage and fear
And I, I wish that I could be that bird
And fly away from here
I wish I had the wings to fly away from here
But my, my I feel so low
My, my, where do I go?
My, my, what do I know?
My, my, we reap what we sow
They always said that you knew best but
This little bird's fallen out of that nest now
I've got a feeling that it might have been blessed so
I've just got to put these wings to test
For I am just a troubled soul
Who's weighted...
Weighted to the ground
Give me the strength to carry on
Till I can lay my burden down
Give me the strength to lay this burden down
Down, down, yeah
Give me the strength to lay it down
But my, my I feel so low
my,my,where do I go?
my,my, what do I know?
my, my, we reap what we sow
They always said that you knew best but
This little bird's fallen out of that nest now
I've got a feeling that it might have been blessed so
I've just got to put these wings to test
>|< Penny
Non illigitamus carborundum. |
Edited by - Penny on 11/17/2006 20:49:20 |
|
|
|
Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 00:54:37
|
Penny, I haven't heard that song, so thank you for writing out the lyrics--it's lovely. I'll have to get the song from itunes so I can listen to it!
I decided on the screen name Littlebird because I love birds and find they make me feel hopeful about life. Finding this forum shortly after reading Dr. Sarno's book also made me feel hopeful, so it seemed kind of fitting to me to choose a name with bird in it.
I have about two dozen parakeets in a big flight cage in my laundry room--they make it a mess, but they're worth it. I love how each one is so unique in color, I love their individual personalities and I find them fascinating to watch. And it's interesting how they watch back--they're quite intelligent. When I was going through a severe depression a few years ago I felt like the birds were what kept me going. I'd sit in the laundry room for a couple of hours a day, just watching the birds.
Thank you for your kind words--you are one of the people whose comments I often relate to.
Corey |
|
|
|
JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 07:19:18
|
Thanks Ladies,
Penny, I love your story. And I think I realized something---Dr. Siegel's "strategy" (which is very un-Sarno) had the effect of making me feel like I wasn't "worth it." He kept telling me to relax and not try so hard. He kept saying I should stop working at it so hard and "live normally." This made no sense to me but I felt like I had to be a good patient. I think unconcsciously I felt abandoned!!! I know this is my stuff but neglect was a BIG part of my upbringing. I am also a "goodist" and try to get everyone's methods "right." I am getting some relief today because I am back on the Sarno (et al.) track and working hard now on my personality traits and how they are making me sick. I can't always make everyone happy and do things "right." I don't want to anymore---or my ucs, doesn't. I think when I was going to Dr. Siegel I was neglecting my "homework" and I can't do that anymore. I will probably write him a note so he can benefit (maybe) from my experience. I need to do the work (without letting it make me unhappy) because the only way to get better is to do it. So many people on this site are better. I am getting there. The work is necessary as long as we don't let it become too anxiety-ridden.
Thankyou for everything!
Blessings,
Jane |
|
|
|
JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 07:20:29
|
Penny,
I wonder if we goodist/people-pleasers need to be sick to say "no!"
!!!! |
|
|
|
Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 08:28:00
|
Penny, this was brilliant:
"The more I acknowledged my emotional disconnection, the better physically I became, but the sadder emotionally. I was not frightened by the sadness b/c I believed in my heart that it would not last forever. I understood that it needed to process thru me in order to BECOME a part of me."
Wow - what a fascinating thread. As I said elsewhere, maybe our real problem is how intelligent we are 
I could relate to what you said, JaneLeslie, about feeling abandoned or made wrong when told "not to try so hard." I found it could be pretty desperate being sick and being "talked down to" by all these people who weren't, but not given real skillful means that could help me out. It's a bit - well, a lot! - like someone saying you should stop drinking if you're an alcoholic, but they don't give you any steps to help stop, so you just beat yourself up more and drink more.
The thing about Sarno's work is that it goes against a current trend AWAY from working with the emotions and the "unconscious." It is so messy, so scary to go "back" into emotions. Sometimes it looks to me as though the entire population is divided into two groups:
The first group are those who are run by their unconscious emotions but it's temporarily working to make them look successful (or like dominators), and these folks pretend not to have many feelings, or to have overcome them, or "realized" that they aren't real. In other words, they LOOK like adults.
The second group are those who are run by their unconscious emotions but it's made their lives fall apart. They seem to be in the grip of feelings, like children.
In the 60s lots of us started exploring our feelings. Then we lagged behind the others who were perhaps "getting on" in the "real" world. So there was a huge scrambling to get back into being "adults" - which looked a lot like dozens of therapies designed to fix, suppress, control, manage the emotions, rather than actually explore and validate them.
(Of course, these therapies are also more "male," and despite a brief 60s/70s foray into the feminine side, there has been a scared backlash, and everyone again wants to show male traits even while pretending to be moving towards more integration. Even current trends in women's sexuality that might appear to be mean more female sexual freedom are very raunchy and masculine.)
So Sarno's focus on the unconscious can seem, in some ways, to represent "back to the child" and "back to the mother" - a scary trend for many. In my own work as a therapist and seminar leader, I had always included everything, but noticed myself moving more towards the "elegant, cognitive" end of things because I wanted to seem to be playing with the big boys. Then 3 years ago my life fell apart and I was kind of forced into what worked, even before Sarno. Then Sarno put the cherry on the pie for me with the word "distraction."
Another long essay for this thread!
My formula is: feel the feelings, change the beliefs.
Best to you all, brilliant forum buds!
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
Edited by - Wavy Soul on 11/18/2006 08:30:04 |
|
|
|
JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 09:31:20
|
Thanks Wavy Soul,
Wow, I can relate to that phrase from Penny too. IT is so true. Freud really got it right a long time ago, didn't he? Freud is very "out" right now and I hasn't been "in" since, what the 40's, early 50's? He saw all this physical stuff and knew it was "hysteria" in some fashion that orignated in the unconscious. Why did that all go away?
I think Sarno is The Man. Thank you gang. We press on. Some things cannot be improved upon that much I don't think. I think the Freudian/Sarno link is a much clearer one that the behavioral medicine one. At least for me. I want to be a grown-up that feels feelings without feeling pain. One day at a time.
Blessings,
Jane
|
|
|
|
Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 10:08:04
|
Searching for answers can be a distraction in and of itself.
Different viewpoints are simply metaphors. The actual mechanism of TMS is probably more complex than any human can understand.
The key is to gain the knowledge and understanding that resonates with you. Take whatever viewpoint is successful in making you believe that the physical symptoms have a psychological cause.
I don't like to think that stress causes TMS. I think of stress as another symptom. We stress because we are anxious about things in our lives over which we do not have the desired level of control (a level which is probably impossible to attain). This conscious anxiety is born out of unconscious conflicts -- the same conflicts that cause back pain and other physical symptoms. |
|
|
|
JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 13:26:34
|
| Thank you for that Dave. |
|
|
|
JaneLeslie
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 13:36:56
|
I hear what your saying about making this whole thing a distraction. It is so insidious.
Jane |
|
|
|
Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 13:46:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by JaneLeslie
Freud is very "out" right now and I hasn't been "in" since, what the 40's, early 50's? He saw all this physical stuff and knew it was "hysteria" in some fashion that orignated in the unconscious. Why did that all go away?
Freud was very fixated on the sexual aspects of psychology, which some people didn't like. He also said men were superior to women, which many people didn't like. He claimed women were sort of men from the inside, but massively and usual sexually frustrated. Maybe that's why 'hysteria' means 'frustrated uterus.'
He also said that he was right, simply because he was right. That's no satisfactory proof. Not that Sarno has, but he is not all arrogant about it, which Freud was and many people didn't like that also.
Ironicly, a later conducted psychological research amongst women concluded that a high number of women (95% or so) had indeed all kinds of sexual problems originating from childhood, which sort of supports some of the stuff Freud said.
I think with nowdays fastpacing society hard science simply inevitably prevails because of lack of time, patience and belief.
Although Freud builded the fundaments to the TMS thought, the thing I don't like about him is the women are all about frustration thing, since a lot of TMS sufferers here including me are male.
____________
Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
Edited by - Redsandro on 11/18/2006 13:47:21 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
TMS Paradigm Clash! SOS!
