| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| navneet1999 |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 06:22:19
Let me start by saying that I don't do Yoga as a remedy for my pain, neither am I proposing that. I'm just questioning whether Yoga and Dr. Sarno's TMS-based [knowledge-centric] treatment can co-exist. I know, the short answer is that not only can any form of exercise co-exist with TMS, physical exercise is actually encouraged. But Yoga's slightly different and may have some overlap with the TMS-based treatment, so let me elaborate.
First, a brief synopsis of my case:
- I'm a 34-yr old male, computer professional
- Developed a "bad back" about 12 years ago. MRI revealed 2 herniated discs. was off physical activity for a few years.
- About 9 years ago, a friend and I read (many times over) and discussed Dr. Sarno's books, and saw great improvement.
- Have been largely pain-free since ... occasional recurrences that don't last long ... no physical activity restraints.
- Started doing Yoga (just Asanas - stretching combined with breathing) about 5 years ago. Have loved doing it.
- Recently had a painful recurrence (still ongoing), and am now questioning whether I should get into Yoga again.
I think my biggest concern is that over the last 5 years, I've unknowingly developed the mindset that Yoga is good for keeping my back, neck, shoulders, etc. in shape. Yoga masters extol yoga as a de-toxifying mechanism, which probably has some truth to it (e.g. I'm sure some of the breathing exercises, if done right, get rid of toxins in the system). But I've even felt that the back & neck & other streching excercises "de-toxify" my body and get rid of tension in my muscles (by tension here I'm not referring to the 'T' in TMS, rather just the everyday physical tension accumulated in the body). Worse yet, I've experienced that sustaining such streching excercises have kept my back & neck in shape.
Since I'm in the middle of a recurrence right now and am re-reading "Healing Back Pain", I'm really starting to question if I should do Yoga again, in light of the "Yoga is good for keeping my back in shape" mindset I seem to have developed. I think I want to stop Yoga (the streching part, not the exclusively-breathing excercises), almost for the same reasons that Dr. Sarno proposed discontinuation of physical therapy for his patients way back when. At the same time, it may be that Yoga streches combined with proper breathing really do detoxify the chemical waste buildup in oxygen-deprived areas of the body (alluding to Dr. Sarno's description in "Healing Back Pain"). It's worked for me for 5 years, and I may be on to a good thing - perhaps the first example of a "physical therapy" that's complimentary to TMS-based treatment.
What do you all think?
-Navneet |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| stevep |
Posted - 12/30/2011 : 17:24:26
Thanks windy and yogaluz, good stuff... |
| yogaluz |
Posted - 12/27/2011 : 17:47:21
Great thread. I, like Windy, credit yoga in my recovery such as it is. I no longer have back pain (though from time to time I have a minor flare up that quickly goes away). I started with Bikram as well and still do it as well as Vinyasa in a hot room. I won't repeat what Windy already said as it basically mirrors my experience but I will add something about my rather odd yoga technique for dealing with TMS. Since ridding myself of back pain thanks to Sarno, my TMS has found other homes in my body: IBS, dizziness, heart palpitations, anxiety, sharp pains in my head.... need I go on? So, what I found was that if I was in the depth of some sort of symptom, I would force myself to go to Bikram yoga. Same postures each time in a hot room - very meditative in its way. I woud sweat and nearly die (or so it seemed some days) but I would always walk out of there breathing, somewhat lighter and well... I guess, still alive. In this way, I knew my symptoms were just TMS, not dire physical ailments. It's sort of like running the gauntlet and coming out the other side.. an affirmation of the whole Sarno theory.
I wouldn't recommend this for everyone but it's something that's worked for me and I don't see any conflict between my yoga practice and my Sarno practice. Namaste!
pain is inevitable, suffering optional |
| windy |
Posted - 12/27/2011 : 11:11:33
quote:
Originally posted by stevep
windy, thanks for the posts. If you don't mind, do you have any insight into how you went about overcoming the teacher vocalizing how "good for the back" the floor postures in bikram are? I still haven't gone back, and that's one of the things stopping me.
I take a more universal approach. The truth is, anything we do that is not sitting in a chair IS good for the back. Our bodies are meant to move and bend every which way. So "good for the back" for me means don't listen to the myths you've heard about forward/backward/side bending being bad for the back. It's all good for the back. All motion is good for all parts of us, even the psyche. |
| stevep |
Posted - 12/23/2011 : 17:36:56
windy, thanks for the posts. If you don't mind, do you have any insight into how you went about overcoming the teacher vocalizing how "good for the back" the floor postures in bikram are? I still haven't gone back, and that's one of the things stopping me. |
| MatthewNJ |
Posted - 12/23/2011 : 11:34:30
Navneet,
I didn't read this whole thread, but I am also someone that has succeeded in reducing ALL my symptoms significantly. I do yoga and meditate. I feel yoga is a positive thing to do regardless of TMS. It is a process that brings mindfulness, relaxation and being in the moment. All of those things help me keep it from coming back! I believe MANY folks get relief from reading one of Dr. Sarno's books, or any of the myriad of great processes out there to solve these issues. They fall down and have a relaspes when the start feeing better and STOP doing whatever helped them get rid of the pain.
this is from my success story on the tmswiki
"There is no “quick fix”. You can't fix in a short time, that which was created over a lifetime. You need to make life changes that are positive and will be with you for the rest of your life. It is like a diet. You can go on a diet and loose weight or you can change your eating habits. When you diet and then you go back to eating the way you did before the diet, you just gain the weight back. I see that you have to have a new way of "eating" all the time, so when the weight is gone, you are still "eating" the same way. Your habits have changed and the weight stays gone. Substitute "pain" for "weight" in the above and that is the approach I take."
Matthew
Ferretsx3@comcast.net
--------------------
Less activated, more regulated and more resilient. |
| Aussie |
Posted - 12/22/2011 : 16:30:13
Thanks for that info Windy. I have been practising Iyengar yoga for around 6 months and i agree it really improves my overall well-being and confidence. I have however quit all the physical therapy and back exercises that i was prescribed by Physiotherapists etc. Im doing yoga for my overall health, Not for my back. |
| windy |
Posted - 12/22/2011 : 07:59:50
Here is the quote I referenced in an earlier post. If this isn't a 5000 year old explanation of TMS, I don't know what is.
by witness, they are referring to our witness consciousness
"WITNESS:
The witness speaks,
“As she is separated from her true self, she cannot hear my voice as she continues to strive in constant motion driven by the force of her will. Perhaps the pain will become great enough to
release her from the mask she wears, and she will hear my voice. As she listens, I will coach her to respond to outside stimuli in a way that is not violating herself. Instead of reacting
immediately, she will learn to pause, use her breath, to actually feel her emotions without fear, without judgment. She will learn to let go of resentments that have blocked her energy, to let of
unrealistic expectations, and to realize she is loved just as she is. Once she reaches selfacceptance, she can open up her wounded heart as the real woman emerges. The mantra
becomes, “Breath. Relax. Feel. Witness, Let Go.”
source: http://www.iytyogatherapy.com/yogaTherapyJournal/fibromyalgia.pdf |
| windy |
Posted - 12/22/2011 : 07:52:36
quote:
Originally posted by Aussie
Windy can i ask what type of yoga you practice?
Hi,
I've practiced various kinds over the past 9 years. I started with Bikram Yoga, which is a set of the same 26 postures each session, practiced in a room of 105 degrees. This is a vigourous form of yoga but you can practice at your own level taking rests as needed.
Then I switched to vinyasa, or flowing yoga, where one pose flows into another. Of late I've been doing Anusara Yoga, this form is more technical in terms of form, slow transitions, longer pose holds. All of these are various offshoots of hatha yoga which is based on asana (poses) as opposed to breathing and meditation yogas. However breathing exercises and meditation may be part of it. What I liked about yoga was that despite my pain level I felt I could practice it. I was also motivated to try hard despite my pain. This was the beginning of my recovery as I practiced near daily and saw that my body could take it.
Aussie, whatever form you choose to pursue will benefit you on some level. Yoga is one of those things where if you give 5% it will give you back 100-fold. Like grace, it meets you where you are, but never leaves you where it found you. |
| Aussie |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 19:59:32
Windy can i ask what type of yoga you practice? |
| windy |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 13:24:56
Let me say that I am not a regular poster on this forum but I check in occasionally. Sarno helped me immensely back in 2002.
I want to chime in on this topic because it is of great interested to me.
I credit both Sarno and Yoga with aiding my recovery. They are not that different. I also had the opportunity to ask Sarno what he thinks of yoga and he stated "It is sound science." He believes this because yoga is based on careful observation. My experience, however, is that any time I complained to a yoga teacher about pain she would ask what was going on emotionally with me. Yoga helps us be still and calm enough to access the painful emotions. This is why yoga appears to decrease physical pain. Also, any form of exercise helps people feel physically and mentally better.
When I first encountered Sarno's theories I thought they were BS. It was through my yoga practice that I came to understand the value in them. There was a particular passage of an Integrated Yoga Therapy manual about fibromyalgia as an emotional problem that a) still brings tears to my eyes b) changed my life. That's when I got down with the Sarno protocol.
I credit yoga with a lot in my in terms of boosting my confidence and giving me a great weapon against anxiety. Namaste to all. |
| Plantweed |
Posted - 12/20/2011 : 09:30:58
quote:
Our bodies are miraculous machines yet so many doctors would have you convinced that we are delicate and need to baby ourselves.
This is one main reason I stopped seeing chiropractors (the other was $$). |
| stevep |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 10:38:05
Thanks for the thread you linked tom, I reading it now... |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 09:49:33
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
...So there is no Hillbilly Plan for Anxiety Recovery. Mine was a fits and starts, prescribed list of duties that had to be carried out in order to lead a responsible life. Until that time, I had been waiting to feel better to get on with things, but all the while it was the fact that I wasn't getting on with things that was causing the delay in feeling better. Even if you live alone in a cave, you are a social being, and the people with whom you interact are reliant upon you, and you are reliant upon you to accomplish daily tasks in a way that sustains a self-worth in your psyche. So if you suspect that you are dealing with a condition that is psychosomatic, the best advice I can give is to stop making room for your worries in your routine and get things done. You'll feel better immediately because the worries won't stack up from the undone tasks.
I was rereading the replies in the thread I linked to asking about Yoga and reread Hillbilly's post. I've never figured out how his view of recovery from psychosomatic "dis-ease" differed from Dr. Sarno's TMS theory. I don't think it does. TMS'ers and the majority of the planet suffer from an inferiority complex as part of the human condition. What I decipher from HB's paragraph above is recovery from TMS/psychosomatic illness's are based on improving one's self-worth and this is by accomplishing a list of daily tasks which puts us in good standing with our relations and peers at home or at work or in the neighborhood.
As HB says unless we live in a cave we are part of some social fabric and have a standing in that "pecking order" based upon our daily accomplishments. In school it's based on grades, looks, popularity--whatever worked in the 4th grade. Later it's our social mileu, money titles behind our names, etc.
As HB stated, we get anxiety when we fall behind on our daily task list and feel frowned upon by others and thus by ourselves. We lay this on ourselves and probably with a good dose of inferences direct or indirect, conscious or subconsciously from others. The problem can be when we have to renew our self-worth in the community every morning based on out completion of a to-do list. When we fall too far behind or lose belief in the value of the tasks on our list is when the **** hits the fan and we get TMS sick. The work is to have enough ego strength to not base our self-worth on others perceptions of us and checking-off a to-do list we no longer feel an attachment to. This doesn't come overnight.
I feel Hillbilly and Dr. Sarno are on the same page. They both say to feel better mindbodily : "JUST DO IT!" Dr. Sano doesn't get hung-up in the physiology of how TMS is produced. By definition that would be missing the point. Those who are waiting for a "scientific" explanation, by today's terms, may be in for a long wait. Dr. Sarno says the workings of the mind are so complex and convoluted, we may never discover the precise mechanism or mechanisms that create psychosomatic "dis-ease" because TMS rears it's ugly head in so many forms to throw us off it's track. It does take a leap of faith to hop on the TMS path.
JUST DO IT!
|
| Dave |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 09:24:44
quote:
Originally posted by stevep
Thanks. I also have began jogging and lifting again. The weird thing with that, is that those activities are supposedly "bad for your back".
Perhaps one day the medical community will admit the ridiculousness of this statement.
The human body evolved the way it did precisely so we could run faster and over greater distances.
When we lift weights, our bodies adapt, we get stronger, and better looking.
Our bodies are miraculous machines yet so many doctors would have you convinced that we are delicate and need to baby ourselves. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 22:12:15
This thread may be helpful :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6930&SearchTerms=workshop |
| stevep |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 17:36:27
quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
quote:
Originally posted by stevep
I have to bump this old thread. I am very torn about whether to get back into bikram yoga again. Like has been said in this thread, I have a feeling that it's going to be difficult to separate yourself from think that certain postures are "good for your back" when the teacher explicitly states this this posture is "good for your back".
Anybody here currently doing bikram yoga or any other kind come across this issue?
I practice Tai Chi. For the longest time I didn't do it because of the pain that felt. I now practice again with the continued stiffness, not for what I think it might do for my stiff muscles but for the meditation. Tai Chi is always been a "recommended" back therapy, but I was doing it long before a MRI told me I had a bad back. I also jog and lift weights though the stiffness. For me, it's just part of the continuing effort to break the fear cycle. Ain't easy when doctors have buried you.
Other success stories on here have practiced the Hanna Somatic exercises to loosen tense muscles with the idea that it will help with the Sarno ideas.
Pick your own path. Don't give up what you like. Why create more tension? 
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
Thanks. I also have began jogging and lifting again. The weird thing with that, is that those activities are supposedly "bad for your back". And yoga is "good for your back". That's where the whole thing gets confusing. But in the end, what you're really shooting for is not thinking about your back at all, and disregarding what anyone says is bad or good. This is what I'm working on.
I'll take a look at this Hanna Somatic business. |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 16:58:01
quote:
Originally posted by stevep
I have to bump this old thread. I am very torn about whether to get back into bikram yoga again. Like has been said in this thread, I have a feeling that it's going to be difficult to separate yourself from think that certain postures are "good for your back" when the teacher explicitly states this this posture is "good for your back".
Anybody here currently doing bikram yoga or any other kind come across this issue?
I practice Tai Chi. For the longest time I didn't do it because of the pain that felt. I now practice again with the continued stiffness, not for what I think it might do for my stiff muscles but for the meditation. Tai Chi is always been a "recommended" back therapy, but I was doing it long before a MRI told me I had a bad back. I also jog and lift weights though the stiffness. For me, it's just part of the continuing effort to break the fear cycle. Ain't easy when doctors have buried you.
Other success stories on here have practiced the Hanna Somatic exercises to loosen tense muscles with the idea that it will help with the Sarno ideas.
Pick your own path. Don't give up what you like. Why create more tension?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| stevep |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 15:07:48
Thanks for the responses, that kinda helps... |
| PhilMid |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 15:01:49
I continue to practice Yoga whilst recovering from TMS. Now when the Yoga teacher says “don’t do this if you have lower back problems” – I think “I will do this position and keeping proving to my mind that this is TMS”. For me, I regard this as normal physical activity so I do not regard this as a conflict with Dr Sarno’s message. There are days when I don’t practice and I say “it is fine as I don’t need to do it to just to keep my back in shape”.
When the Yoga teacher says that this is good for the back. I think great and treat this just the same as when she says that this posture is good for the abdomen. Like Plantweed, I have stopped worrying about it but try to do the best that my body/mind will allow.
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| Plantweed |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 13:01:39
With all due respect to Sarno, don't worry about what he thinks of yoga. Do you like it? Do you feel a benefit, mentally and/or physically from it? Do you miss it? Then don't overthink it, just do it! Personally I think it's great for you. Been practicing Iyengar yoga for two years. Recently pulled my back (first time since starting yoga) by moving some heavy furniture. In the "old days" I would have been laid up for a week, and in bad pain for months afterward. Still have pain on and off two weeks later, but it's manageable, I haven't missed a workout, and I don't WORRY ABOUT IT....like you wouldn't worry about a charley horse or a banged knee. It'll go away. |
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