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navneet1999
4 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2006 : 06:22:19
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Let me start by saying that I don't do Yoga as a remedy for my pain, neither am I proposing that. I'm just questioning whether Yoga and Dr. Sarno's TMS-based [knowledge-centric] treatment can co-exist. I know, the short answer is that not only can any form of exercise co-exist with TMS, physical exercise is actually encouraged. But Yoga's slightly different and may have some overlap with the TMS-based treatment, so let me elaborate.
First, a brief synopsis of my case:
- I'm a 34-yr old male, computer professional
- Developed a "bad back" about 12 years ago. MRI revealed 2 herniated discs. was off physical activity for a few years.
- About 9 years ago, a friend and I read (many times over) and discussed Dr. Sarno's books, and saw great improvement.
- Have been largely pain-free since ... occasional recurrences that don't last long ... no physical activity restraints.
- Started doing Yoga (just Asanas - stretching combined with breathing) about 5 years ago. Have loved doing it.
- Recently had a painful recurrence (still ongoing), and am now questioning whether I should get into Yoga again.
I think my biggest concern is that over the last 5 years, I've unknowingly developed the mindset that Yoga is good for keeping my back, neck, shoulders, etc. in shape. Yoga masters extol yoga as a de-toxifying mechanism, which probably has some truth to it (e.g. I'm sure some of the breathing exercises, if done right, get rid of toxins in the system). But I've even felt that the back & neck & other streching excercises "de-toxify" my body and get rid of tension in my muscles (by tension here I'm not referring to the 'T' in TMS, rather just the everyday physical tension accumulated in the body). Worse yet, I've experienced that sustaining such streching excercises have kept my back & neck in shape.
Since I'm in the middle of a recurrence right now and am re-reading "Healing Back Pain", I'm really starting to question if I should do Yoga again, in light of the "Yoga is good for keeping my back in shape" mindset I seem to have developed. I think I want to stop Yoga (the streching part, not the exclusively-breathing excercises), almost for the same reasons that Dr. Sarno proposed discontinuation of physical therapy for his patients way back when. At the same time, it may be that Yoga streches combined with proper breathing really do detoxify the chemical waste buildup in oxygen-deprived areas of the body (alluding to Dr. Sarno's description in "Healing Back Pain"). It's worked for me for 5 years, and I may be on to a good thing - perhaps the first example of a "physical therapy" that's complimentary to TMS-based treatment.
What do you all think?
-Navneet |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 06:35:05
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Hi,
I am also a computer professional. I'm lucky in that they offer Yoga at my job one night a week. I never miss it. It's great for relaxing the mind and toning the body.
SARNO Rule number one: Resume all normal physical activity. I would never give up Yoga, especially as you're already doing it.
If you must, focus on how the physical aspects of Yoga relax the mind. Don't give up what you love. That's TMS trying to re-inforce itself.
I wouldn't focus on the YOGA, but would focus on what's going on in your life right now to cause you deep seated stress and anxiety.
You still DO want your neck and back (and all of you) in shape after all.
Regards,
Beth |
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sonora sky
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 07:36:08
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I think it's definitely about the mindset and the beliefs you have about what yoga can/will do for your physical body. I think if you were to focus your attention to the breathing/relaxation or spiritual benefits of yoga, your back (TMS) might not see this as a challenge. But, if you go in thinking "yoga is beneficial for my neck and back, and will keep them in good working order (i.e. pain-free)," the TMS gremlin might see this as the perfect opportunity to rear its ugly head.
When excercisng lately, I try to visualize oxygen being brought to my muscles (well, specifically the ones that are affected by TMS). I feel sort of embarassed admiting this, since I think Sarno would disapprove.  I do this to try to get some temporary relief, but I've found, for me, that it doesn't really work very well.
I've tried to get back to yoga (which I have loved to do in the past) since my TMS "aha" moment this past June, but when I've tried to, it has really aggrivated my physical symptoms. There must be something in my unconsious or conscious mind that has linked yoga to pain relief/healing, strengthening weak muscles, etc. Getting the book "Back Care Basics: A Doctor's Gentle Yoga Program for Back and Neck Pain Relief" (I returned it), didn't help things, I'm sure, but that was BS (before Sarno). Additionally, my recent yoga classes have focused more on gentle stretching, especially to "open up" and loosen the neck and shoulder areas (my current TMS site)--so it's not surprising that the TMS saw this as an opportunity to increase the pain/stiffness. (The instructor kept saying things like, "this position is good for people who carry a lot of tension in their neck," so it was hard to mentally sidestep the TMS.)
So, if I could just reprogram my brain/mind so that it saw yoga as any other excercise, or purely as a relaxation technique, I may be able to sidestep the TMS reaction. But it's so tough to think that way, since I've always seen yoga as the perfect mindbody regimen with numerous benefits for mind, body, and spirit. Ugh! Any suggestions?
Best,
SS |
Edited by - sonora sky on 09/12/2006 07:37:01 |
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navneet1999
4 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 08:03:14
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Exactly. I'm going through the exact same conflict that Sonora Sky is going through. I can't re-program my mind to think that Yoga is just good for relaxation and the mind as Beth suggests (if I could, that'd be great). And it's not that I'm not focusing on the psychological in the context of my latest recurrence, but some part of Yoga might perhaps be hurting. let me explain:
Roughly speaking, Yoga has three aspects to it: Meditation, Pure breathing exercises (Pranayama) and the ones that involve strecthing (Asanas). If one were just doing the first two, it would be easy to program the mind to think "I'm doing Yoga for relaxation and mental health". But as soon as one starts doing asanas, one faces the contradictions that Sonora Sky described ...
On a related note, whenever I play a sport or do a physical exercise (which I'm not afraid of), I religiously stretch my calves/hamstrings/back/other body parts for a good 10 minutes before commencing the activity (perhaps I have it ingrained in me that if I didn't, I'd be more vulnerable to something going wrong). Anything wrong with this?
Regards,
Navneet |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 10:20:29
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As to regular stretching, Sarno is not really in favor of it from what I have gathered. He doesn't think it's necessary on a daily basis, and is skeptical of its benefit for particular activities.
I guess the major thing to consider is whether you feel the stretching is something you enjoy and feel is beneficial to performance (ditto yoga: something you enjoy and good for your well-being), rather than something to prevent injury. If you feel that they're the latter, and don't think you can reprogram your mind, then I'd stop them temporarily. This might convince you that they're not necessary for you, and you could then resume them if you wanted.
But they're also pretty positive/harmless TMS "crutches", so perhaps you just shouldn't worry too much about it!
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
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whitris
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 11:05:11
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Good question...I have the same concern. I still do yoga and massage.
My current view is that yoga is good, as long as you keep up the Sarno work, too. Done properly, it is a mind-body discipline like Sarno's methods. I stretch to find places in my body that are storing rage and fear, and I do Sarno style work, along with the stretching, to release that. I would agree that simply stretching in an effort to "stretch out" the tenseness and pain is not a good idea. My old yoga teacher used to routinely say, "are you feeling fear in that area? what does that mean? can you move into the fear? etc." That is the kind of yoga that I think Sarno would approve of.
Another discipline that may be complimentary is acupuncture, if mindfulness is interjected into it. I keep hearing stories of people who have acupuncture work done and have grief or rage experiences during the actual treatment....
I sometimes think that Sarno's emphasis on psychotherapy may be overdone...since it is all in the head. Mind-body work can be powerful. He is probably overly influenced by his bad experiences with physical therapy, devoid of mindfulness aspects. |
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westcoastram
97 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 12:09:37
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That's a tough one. I think your conflict over yoga and its role in TMS is something that many of us face if not with the same two issues.
I think that conflict speaks to a underlying principle of TMS. The pain IS caused by TMS and you should not attribute Yoga to fixing your underlying problems.
Yoga is an intensive workout that increases flexibilty, promotes relaxation, and improves muscular endurance.
These are all things that can certainly affect the pain you feel but none of them affect the underlying cause. If you have pain - think emotional. And if you intend to do yoga - do it for the reasons in the previous paragraph and not for the pain.
As long as you keep that knowledge close to your heart (unconscious - whatever) - I think you shouldn't have any issues with whether you want to do yoga or not.
Do not look to reconcile yoga with TMS (except that it may lead you insight through meditation) - they are two separate things. |
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navneet1999
4 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 12:22:27
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Thanks Westcoastram, you've clarified things for me very well. Your sentence "The pain IS caused by TMS and you should not attribute Yoga to fixing your underlying problems" really sums it up well.
I think as long as we keep the "underlying cause of pain" very separate from Yoga, stretching, whatever it may be, we should be free of conflict.
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westcoastram
97 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 14:09:19
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I came upon the same conflict when I started working out again and what role stretching played in my symptoms.
Once I really got it down that the pain was TMS, I stopped linking stretching with it. To reinforce this, I stopped stretching (I had a lot of protocols for physical therapy) for pain and just did it after workouts for increased performance. |
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stevep
106 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 11:54:44
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I have to bump this old thread. I am very torn about whether to get back into bikram yoga again. Like has been said in this thread, I have a feeling that it's going to be difficult to separate yourself from think that certain postures are "good for your back" when the teacher explicitly states this this posture is "good for your back".
Anybody here currently doing bikram yoga or any other kind come across this issue? |
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Plantweed
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 13:01:39
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| With all due respect to Sarno, don't worry about what he thinks of yoga. Do you like it? Do you feel a benefit, mentally and/or physically from it? Do you miss it? Then don't overthink it, just do it! Personally I think it's great for you. Been practicing Iyengar yoga for two years. Recently pulled my back (first time since starting yoga) by moving some heavy furniture. In the "old days" I would have been laid up for a week, and in bad pain for months afterward. Still have pain on and off two weeks later, but it's manageable, I haven't missed a workout, and I don't WORRY ABOUT IT....like you wouldn't worry about a charley horse or a banged knee. It'll go away. |
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PhilMid
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 15:01:49
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I continue to practice Yoga whilst recovering from TMS. Now when the Yoga teacher says “don’t do this if you have lower back problems” – I think “I will do this position and keeping proving to my mind that this is TMS”. For me, I regard this as normal physical activity so I do not regard this as a conflict with Dr Sarno’s message. There are days when I don’t practice and I say “it is fine as I don’t need to do it to just to keep my back in shape”.
When the Yoga teacher says that this is good for the back. I think great and treat this just the same as when she says that this posture is good for the abdomen. Like Plantweed, I have stopped worrying about it but try to do the best that my body/mind will allow.
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stevep
106 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 15:07:48
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| Thanks for the responses, that kinda helps... |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 16:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by stevep
I have to bump this old thread. I am very torn about whether to get back into bikram yoga again. Like has been said in this thread, I have a feeling that it's going to be difficult to separate yourself from think that certain postures are "good for your back" when the teacher explicitly states this this posture is "good for your back".
Anybody here currently doing bikram yoga or any other kind come across this issue?
I practice Tai Chi. For the longest time I didn't do it because of the pain that felt. I now practice again with the continued stiffness, not for what I think it might do for my stiff muscles but for the meditation. Tai Chi is always been a "recommended" back therapy, but I was doing it long before a MRI told me I had a bad back. I also jog and lift weights though the stiffness. For me, it's just part of the continuing effort to break the fear cycle. Ain't easy when doctors have buried you.
Other success stories on here have practiced the Hanna Somatic exercises to loosen tense muscles with the idea that it will help with the Sarno ideas.
Pick your own path. Don't give up what you like. Why create more tension? 
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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stevep
106 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 17:36:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
quote:
Originally posted by stevep
I have to bump this old thread. I am very torn about whether to get back into bikram yoga again. Like has been said in this thread, I have a feeling that it's going to be difficult to separate yourself from think that certain postures are "good for your back" when the teacher explicitly states this this posture is "good for your back".
Anybody here currently doing bikram yoga or any other kind come across this issue?
I practice Tai Chi. For the longest time I didn't do it because of the pain that felt. I now practice again with the continued stiffness, not for what I think it might do for my stiff muscles but for the meditation. Tai Chi is always been a "recommended" back therapy, but I was doing it long before a MRI told me I had a bad back. I also jog and lift weights though the stiffness. For me, it's just part of the continuing effort to break the fear cycle. Ain't easy when doctors have buried you.
Other success stories on here have practiced the Hanna Somatic exercises to loosen tense muscles with the idea that it will help with the Sarno ideas.
Pick your own path. Don't give up what you like. Why create more tension?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
Thanks. I also have began jogging and lifting again. The weird thing with that, is that those activities are supposedly "bad for your back". And yoga is "good for your back". That's where the whole thing gets confusing. But in the end, what you're really shooting for is not thinking about your back at all, and disregarding what anyone says is bad or good. This is what I'm working on.
I'll take a look at this Hanna Somatic business. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 09:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by stevep
Thanks. I also have began jogging and lifting again. The weird thing with that, is that those activities are supposedly "bad for your back".
Perhaps one day the medical community will admit the ridiculousness of this statement.
The human body evolved the way it did precisely so we could run faster and over greater distances.
When we lift weights, our bodies adapt, we get stronger, and better looking.
Our bodies are miraculous machines yet so many doctors would have you convinced that we are delicate and need to baby ourselves. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 09:49:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
...So there is no Hillbilly Plan for Anxiety Recovery. Mine was a fits and starts, prescribed list of duties that had to be carried out in order to lead a responsible life. Until that time, I had been waiting to feel better to get on with things, but all the while it was the fact that I wasn't getting on with things that was causing the delay in feeling better. Even if you live alone in a cave, you are a social being, and the people with whom you interact are reliant upon you, and you are reliant upon you to accomplish daily tasks in a way that sustains a self-worth in your psyche. So if you suspect that you are dealing with a condition that is psychosomatic, the best advice I can give is to stop making room for your worries in your routine and get things done. You'll feel better immediately because the worries won't stack up from the undone tasks.
I was rereading the replies in the thread I linked to asking about Yoga and reread Hillbilly's post. I've never figured out how his view of recovery from psychosomatic "dis-ease" differed from Dr. Sarno's TMS theory. I don't think it does. TMS'ers and the majority of the planet suffer from an inferiority complex as part of the human condition. What I decipher from HB's paragraph above is recovery from TMS/psychosomatic illness's are based on improving one's self-worth and this is by accomplishing a list of daily tasks which puts us in good standing with our relations and peers at home or at work or in the neighborhood.
As HB says unless we live in a cave we are part of some social fabric and have a standing in that "pecking order" based upon our daily accomplishments. In school it's based on grades, looks, popularity--whatever worked in the 4th grade. Later it's our social mileu, money titles behind our names, etc.
As HB stated, we get anxiety when we fall behind on our daily task list and feel frowned upon by others and thus by ourselves. We lay this on ourselves and probably with a good dose of inferences direct or indirect, conscious or subconsciously from others. The problem can be when we have to renew our self-worth in the community every morning based on out completion of a to-do list. When we fall too far behind or lose belief in the value of the tasks on our list is when the **** hits the fan and we get TMS sick. The work is to have enough ego strength to not base our self-worth on others perceptions of us and checking-off a to-do list we no longer feel an attachment to. This doesn't come overnight.
I feel Hillbilly and Dr. Sarno are on the same page. They both say to feel better mindbodily : "JUST DO IT!" Dr. Sano doesn't get hung-up in the physiology of how TMS is produced. By definition that would be missing the point. Those who are waiting for a "scientific" explanation, by today's terms, may be in for a long wait. Dr. Sarno says the workings of the mind are so complex and convoluted, we may never discover the precise mechanism or mechanisms that create psychosomatic "dis-ease" because TMS rears it's ugly head in so many forms to throw us off it's track. It does take a leap of faith to hop on the TMS path.
JUST DO IT!
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Edited by - tennis tom on 12/14/2011 09:56:21 |
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stevep
106 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 10:38:05
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| Thanks for the thread you linked tom, I reading it now... |
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Plantweed
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2011 : 09:30:58
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quote:
Our bodies are miraculous machines yet so many doctors would have you convinced that we are delicate and need to baby ourselves.
This is one main reason I stopped seeing chiropractors (the other was $$). |
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windy
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 13:24:56
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Let me say that I am not a regular poster on this forum but I check in occasionally. Sarno helped me immensely back in 2002.
I want to chime in on this topic because it is of great interested to me.
I credit both Sarno and Yoga with aiding my recovery. They are not that different. I also had the opportunity to ask Sarno what he thinks of yoga and he stated "It is sound science." He believes this because yoga is based on careful observation. My experience, however, is that any time I complained to a yoga teacher about pain she would ask what was going on emotionally with me. Yoga helps us be still and calm enough to access the painful emotions. This is why yoga appears to decrease physical pain. Also, any form of exercise helps people feel physically and mentally better.
When I first encountered Sarno's theories I thought they were BS. It was through my yoga practice that I came to understand the value in them. There was a particular passage of an Integrated Yoga Therapy manual about fibromyalgia as an emotional problem that a) still brings tears to my eyes b) changed my life. That's when I got down with the Sarno protocol.
I credit yoga with a lot in my in terms of boosting my confidence and giving me a great weapon against anxiety. Namaste to all. |
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Reconciling Yoga with TMS-based treatment
