| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| art |
Posted - 03/01/2006 : 19:58:06
I try to steer clear of these kinds of posts, but I know there are a bunch of runners on the forum, so I thought I'd throw this out there...
It kind of brings up a general question in that I'm never quite sure how to proceed when these over use issues spring up...I tend not to want to take even one rest day as I'm committed to the TMS diagnosis, and yet on the other hand, I can't help wondering if simple prudence would dictate some sort of rest...
Anyone? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| art |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 08:05:22
Michelle,
Thanks so much for the suggestion. I'll definitely check it out. As an "older" runner now (yech), I sometimes feel lonely out there. (Not to mention slow these days. I think if I ran any slower I'd probably fall over.)
Funny, in a way I'm back to where I started. I got inot running in 1973-74 or so, when joggers were looked at as cranks. A few years later the boom hit and I had plenty of company.
Now, while there are plenty of other runners of course, I sometimes wonder where my peers have gone. It just seems like from the standpoint of a runner in his mid-fifties, I'm a bit of a loner again. Be nice to find a community of contemporaries to share with... |
| Dave |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 08:58:44
wlrdtrv,
Of course everything is not TMS. There are injuries and disease.
You can't really pick and choose which symptoms you treat as TMS. You can't say "my hamstring pain is due to a 20 year old injury so I'm going to stretch it and ice it, but my shoulder pain is definitely TMS so I'm going to treat it as such."
If you have ruled out serious disease, and do not have an acute injury, then there is a good chance it is TMS.
Dr. Sarno does not believe old injuries cause pain. If you were to see him it is likely he would tell you unequivocally that your hamstring pain is TMS and that you perpetuate it by treating it as a physical problem.
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| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 23:48:14
wrldtry-
I dont think that the general view of this forum is that everything is TMS. Folks are often encouraged to rule out potentially serious medical disorders first before they accept TMS as their diagnosis. From your posts you seem to be struggling with differentiating "real running injuries" from TMS. Have you actually been to a TMS physician? If you have not you may want to consider it in order to help you rule out the "real stuff"
Curiosity |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 22:21:00
Dave--You said, "Any physical stretching...undermines the TMS diagnosis." Well, who says it is TMS? I doubt it is. That's not to say that other symptoms, other problems, I have had in the past weren't TMS.
Here is something I want to say: NOT EVERYTHING IS TMS. For strangers to diagnose someone else from a brief description is like Bill Frist diagnosing Terry Schiavo from a videotape.
Something else: Suppose you have a painful knee. If you go to an orthopedist he may say you have I-T Band Syndrome. If you go to a rheumatologist you may end up with a diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis. But if you see a neurolgist he might say you have nerve damage or MS. And if you go to the TMS board I'm afraid you might automatically end up with a diagnosis of TMS, sight unseen.
This is the danger, I feel, in presuming to know, in automatically tossing everything into the TMS category. Some conditions, I'll grant you, set off all the TMS red flags and it's reasonable to make that diagnosis. Other conditions are much more doubtful. I've seen such a variety of symptoms talked about on this board that are lumped into the TMS category that I wonder what can be excluded. In fact, I don't know if I have ever seen someone describe a symptom of any kind that others have not automatically agreed was TMS.
Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think TMS theory was valid. And I feel I have personally gotten a lot out of seeing things through that perspective. That's why I want to see the credibility of Sarno and TMS protected, not cheapened by applying it to everything.
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| altherunner |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 19:09:26
hsb - I had all types of running "injuries", got better, then after a year had terrible neck and shoulder pain, that coincided with my mom being hospitalized. I think your mind just keeps trying things to keep you under "control". I had therapy with Don Dubin that really helped and have been pain free since. |
| hsb |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 17:12:24
yes dave i have considered tms. i have to be honest and admit that i believe about 80%, not at 100% and i know that you have berated many posters that you need to be in 100% belief of tms.
i lost a year of running dealing with groin "stuff". started running again in september with NO PAIN and guess what-- around that time i had a slight stiff neck and it imploded into this nasty trapezius muscle and neck pain which has gotten worse and worse. and the only constant has been i've been running and adding miles and getting back in shape after missing a year.
instead of physical treatment i know i need to do the mental stuff. i will reiterate what i previously posted --- being a high mileage runner, it is difficult to discern a running injury from tms.
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| Dave |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 16:56:29
hsb,
You don't give any consideration to your symptoms being TMS? |
| hsb |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 15:53:34
well, my neck pain is now 6 months old. it has gotten progressively worse. i have gone to PT gone to the ortho who said it was a pinched nerve and a narrowing of the disks in my neck. the PT said it was extremely tight trapezius muscles. I know that we hold tension in the neck and shoulders, i.e. the postural muscles. i am resisting getting an mri because i know that if you put 2 mris next to each other, both would have herniations and you wouldn't be able to tell who had pain. deg. disk disease is natural aging.
the only common thread is that i have been running consistently since september (was out for an entire year with groin issues). the more i've been running, slowly increasing, the neck pain has gotten worse. so i am at the usual crossroads again - as art has stated previously - do i continue to run or stop to see if the neck pain goes away. more miles and more consistent running has equaled more neck pain.
this is a tough one for me.
thanks |
| Michele |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 15:04:14
Art, if you love running, you might check out the Runner's World forum. I've been posting there for 5 years now, and there is a section for "Masters". It is an encouraging bunch, we keep each other motivated, and if you like to talk about running, we'll all listen!  I have often mentioned Dr. Sarno's work on the forum and so far, no one has bashed me for it. Runner's World even had a small paragraph in their magazine last year in an injury section - when all else fails, read Dr. Sarno!
It's funny because there are some regular posters and listening to them talk about their change in job, retirement, kids giving them grief, etc. and then "suddenly" they have a "strain" or their ITB acts up, or PF or something. I think to myself "Ah, it's TMS!" |
| art |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 11:44:14
As to stretching, I belong to another forum frequented by athletes.
I dared to post that stretching was not only not helpful prior to working out, it could actually lead to injury. In support, I cited a recent study
I was roundly abused by the list adminstrator for "endangering the health" of the other members. It got so bad that I ended up leaving the forum. I was genuinely shocked at the anger and hostility I was subjected to. I'm nearly 55 years old, and people still have the ability to disappoint me. I suppose that's a good thing.
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| Michele |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 11:27:11
Fellow runner here! I suffered with alot of what I thought was "over-use" injuries while I trained and ran marathons, but now can look back and see clearly that it was TMS. My husband didn't appreciate the extra time it took to train, I felt guilty about being away from the kids or rearranging everybody's schedules to fit mine, was I going fast enough, were my shoes good enough, how did I compare, and on and on and on.
My TMS really took a hike when I stopped all treatments. I stopped taking the pain killers. I stopped going to the chiropractors. I stopped getting massages to "fix" things. It is persistent, and some of us will always be fighting back.
As for taking it easier, or adding more rest days, I think you just have to listen to your body. Sometimes we're more tired, for whatever reason, and it's just not a good run day. If you love to run, keep going, and just do what you can that day.
Good luck! |
| Dave |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 07:16:32
quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
...And the fact that the tendonitis occurs only in the injured leg and not the other adds to the evidence.
TMS attacks the sites of old injuries.
quote:
I have experimented with the no stretch idea and not only were my legs tighter than ever, but I got injured at least as often as before. I actually enjoy stretching. It's relaxing, it feels better to be flexible, and I feel that it probably does some good in preventing injury. No, I can't prove it, but that doesn't really matter to me...
Any physical stretching, exercise or treatment designed to relieve pain or prevent injury undermines the TMS diagnosis.
Your arguments are certainly valid. But if this is your thought process then you must understand that it is incompatible with TMS treatment. If you allow yourself to believe that an old injury can cause chronic pain, or that stretching helps to prevent injury, then your mind is still in the physical realm. Recovery from TMS requires unequivocal belief in the psychogenic nature of the symptoms. |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/07/2006 : 00:12:45
Fox and Dave,
While I can't say for sure the chronic hamstring tendonitis is not TMS, it seems that it is not for the following reasons: You asked why it hasn't healed after all these years. Well, actually it does heal when I'm not running much or not stretching it too much. The area is very tight--tighter than the other leg--which I attribute to the 20 year old rupture. Also regarding healing, the piece of muscle that ruptured can't heal. As I mentioned before, it is lying there useless, not attached to anything. So, in that sense, it hasn't healed. My theory about the chronic tendonitis is that it is somehow related to this rupture that permanently put out of service a significant part of one of the three branches (semitendonosus) of the hamstring. Can I prove it? No. But it certainly seems plausible. And the fact that the tendonitis occurs only in the injured leg and not the other adds to the evidence.
Regarding stretching, you asked why I do it. Good question. The value of stretching has come under heavy scrutiny and attack in the past few yrs with some showing it does nothing to prevent injury. I can't argue with that. But my own intuition and reason tells me otherwise. I have experimented with the no stretch idea and not only were my legs tighter than ever, but I got injured at least as often as before. I actually enjoy stretching. It's relaxing, it feels better to be flexible, and I feel that it probably does some good in preventing injury. No, I can't prove it, but that doesn't really matter to me. My only problem with stretching is that I sometimes over-do it. Especially if I have been making improvements in flexibility I become impatient for more. |
| Dave |
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 14:14:19
quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
I also have chronic hamstring tendonitis (at the knee)...While these seem to be real physical problems...
If after reading Dr. Sarno you don't believe that it is possible for "chronic hamstring tendonitis" to be TMS then you really don't believe in TMS, at least not fully.
Old injuries heal completely. Chronic symptoms at the spot of an old injury is TMS attacking a spot where you will believe the pain is physical. The fact that you believe the flare-ups are due to overstretching (why are you stretching in the first place) or a "hard run" and attribute the pain to a 20 year old injury means you do not really buy into Dr. Sarno's theory.
Then at the same time you want to believe "other" problems are mind-body. You really can't have it both ways. If you fall into the TMS trap with your hamstring, you undermine the diagnosis in your mind and make it less likely to recover from other mindbody symptoms. |
| Fox |
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 09:59:30
WRLDTRV - Why hasn't your hamstring problem healed after all these years? I would look into the possibility of this being TMS. |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 22:16:37
I can't say that my Plantar Fascitis appeared out of nowhere. I think there was some definite overuse there, as I had run two marathons in three months; whereas, usually I would do one every year or two. Secondly, I could actually feel a bump, a swelling, where scar tissue had built up. The only mystery about it was the foot it appeared in. I had always had problems with the other foot, not this one. And it hung on for a very long time despite cutting my running to nearly nothing for the next year.
I also have chronic hamstring tendonitis (at the knee). It flares up at the slightest overstretching or hard run. Only one leg. I attribute this chronic problem to the partial rupture of my hamstring probably 20 yrs ago. There is still a small swelling upon contraction where part of the muscle is lying useless. As long as I can remember I've had irritation in that tiny area where the hamstring inserts into the back of the knee.
While these seem to be real physical problems, I have certainly had others that almost certainly were mind-body. I'm thinking of the 10 year period I went to chiropracters for back pain. All I know is, the pain only stopped when my insurance stopped paying! I've been mostly pain free ever since. |
| altherunner |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 21:46:48
Art - My most painful problem was neck and back pain, but I also had:
plantar facsitis, shin splints, hamstring pull, groin pull, painful
bunion, knee pains. They just moved around took turns distracting me, and keeping me from running. They have all gone (thank god!) |
| nancy |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:14:26
"'I cannot identify any trauma or overuse event in connection with my PF. One day I just had it. I suppose, if my brain decided to limit the blood flow to that area.'
Same is true for me -- woke up one day "out of the blue" with PF. One foot, then to the other, back and forth - went through orthodics, cortisone shots, new shoes/sneakers, the works ... till I found Dr. S and started making mind-body connections. I think fear in my life created the problem. As another poster has said in the past, "just do it" has worked well for me in conjunction with looking within myself more to figure out all the things I felt/feel afraid of: asserting myself more at work, at home, etc. Holding in a lot of anger, too. "
I could have written the above, and am very interested to know about the role fear plays in this process. Since reading your post, I've been thinking about my fears as well. My first bout with PF came a few months after 9/11 ( I live in NYC) and I had been "soldiering" on with a lot of palpable fear on a daily basis. I always thought that the timing was not a coincidence.
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| Andrew2000 |
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 08:46:26
"I cannot identify any trauma or overuse event in connection with my PF. One day I just had it. I suppose, if my brain decided to limit the blood flow to that area."
Same is true for me -- woke up one day "out of the blue" with PF. One foot, then to the other, back and forth - went through orthodics, cortisone shots, new shoes/sneakers, the works ... till I found Dr. S and started making mind-body connections. I think fear in my life created the problem. As another poster has said in the past, "just do it" has worked well for me in conjunction with looking within myself more to figure out all the things I felt/feel afraid of: asserting myself more at work, at home, etc. Holding in a lot of anger, too.
Am able to do so much more than I could six months ago, am back at the gym 5 times a week -- the pain comes and goes now vs. being there all the time ...
Apart from Dr. Sarno maybe some on the board are familiar with Louise Haye's material ... in her book "You Can Heal Your Life" which was written in the mid-80s (but I just discovered it) I was amazed that she too not only subscribes to the mind-body connection, but comments that foot problems are all about fear - which was my gut instinct after reading Dr. Sarno.
So for whatever it's worth, if you're having foot problems think about what's causing fear in your life. See if you can let go of some or all of it ... |
| Fox |
Posted - 03/02/2006 : 15:56:24
I should mention that I ran 6 miles a day - every day (unless I was extremely sick) - for 10 years and never once had any overuse injury - so I wonder if the pain runners develop is really due to "overuse". How much of it is really TMS taking hold when your brain sees the opportunity - when your brain realizes that you have pushed yourself beyond your normal limits. |
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