| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| n/a |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 07:54:54
Got this note from a TMS doctor:
"You might also want to check into someone who does EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing), which is a method of working with past traumas to clear them away and allow for healing. EFT (emotional freedom technique) is a similar technique."
Associated websites for this are:
http://www.emdr.com/
and
http://www.emofree.com/
The latter one is interesting because someone posted here that it is Pseud- scientific yet at least one TMS doctor recommends is for physchotherapy.
I have not tried either one of them.
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 11:08:23
Well I might as well throw my 2cents in about this tappppppping business. (By the way it's interesting that my Dell laptop keyboard doesn't have a key for the "cents" symbol but the dollar symbol is still here; just a sign of inflation I guess and how little my two cents will be worth).
I remember in yoga class, the teacher introduced this tapping sequence out of the blue. I thought it was a waste of time and was cutting into my headstand time.
I don't know what it was supposed to do AND it didn't do anything for ME. The yoga teacher never explained, it or maybe I missed that class.
My conjecture is, that it serves a function similar to breathing deeply and counting to ten. It's a distraction to capture one's attention and take it somewhere else, away from the pain at hand.
In TMS work, it would be the equivalent of when the Good Doctor would stop his migraines by
SHIFTING his thoughts from the physical pain of a migraine. Instead, he would atop and ask himself, what is going on emotionaly. What was it that his mind was trying to repress, and prevent from erupting to the surface with inappropriate ANGER.
This tapping business serves the same purpose: to shift or derail the pain process. This shift in thinking, reduces the volume control of the pain, in the brain, to feeling the phyical tapping sensation. I'm sure tapping works for some, (at least for a while), and so does Voo-Doo. And also that obnoxious stuff you ROLL-ON for headaches--PLACEBO EFFECT.
In conclusion, you can turn down the volume of your pain by performing a primitive ritual like tapping or use TMS psychology techniques to shift your thinking to the REAL problems causing the psychosomatic pain.
You may find, the real-life emotional cause, and fix the problem, or just accept the problem, having discovered it's existence in the conscious mind. Or, as Dr. Sarno found sometimes, not be able to divine it--but dearail the pain process none the less.
The analogy would be to giving someone a fish, versus teaching someone to fish. The tapping is merely a non-sensical physical distraction, exchanging one physical sensation for another--while thinking TMS'ly, may really change someting for the better, in a long term context.
I agree with what Dave's thinking, "cures" performed by theraptists of various body-work modalities, such as accu, rolph, c-s, tap, hypno, colors, fung-shui, voo-doo, the gamut from a-z, is more dependent on the realationship between the patient and the therapist than the methods of the therapy.
With TMS you can be both the patient and the threapist and not be DEPENDENT on anyone else, having to pay the BIG BUCKS.
Just my 2cents.
By the way, what ever happpened to the Berkely tapper therapist who was here for a while, leaving her phone number as her salutation? I certainly hope I didn't chase her away with my last post to her. |
| molomaf |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 09:25:54
I just learned a variation of EFT from a mindbody healer. She calls it natural bio-destressing and she says it is based on EFT. So therefore, I will call it EFT for the sake of this discussion(By the way, she has told me to share my DVD with everyone).
I have done all that I can with TMS work and journaling and no longer have the horrendous back pain that I used to I thank Dr. Sarno for saving my life, but there are times that I need immediate stress relief and EFT does it in minutes. Whether it is a placebo or not, it works for me. I have found that when I am angry and am totally aware of my anger and I just cannot relax about it, the tapping is an incredible release for me. It is not medication, it works fast and it does not conflict with TMS at all. I am totally aware of what is going on. I know that I am angry and I have done the TMS work but when I can feel tense, EFT works quickly.
I have been able to release some of my phobic conditions because of EFT. I no longer have the anxiety about driving on the highway that I used to have. If that is a placebo, then that's fine with me.
Just like the critics of Dr. Sarno, there are critics of EFT. It cannot do any harm to add it as an adjunct to TMS work. I realize that opens the floodgates to all other sorts of healing techniques. But if we are on board with TMS and do the work, I don't see the harm in trying harmless, possible useful techniques for stress relief.
By the way, I go to a mindbody healer because I have two autoimmune skin disorders that have not been receptive to three plus years of psychotherapy and derms have nothing to offer me. This person is a PHD in biochemistry and immunology and totally believes in the unconscious mind creating disease.
Michele
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| floorten |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 14:58:21
Dave, my 0.02 ...
Whatever your misgivings may be about the relevance and efficacy of EFT in healing those diagnosed TMS, I can't agree with your assumption that the EFT website is a primarily moneymaking endeavour.
The DVD sets sold on their site are sold at pretty much their cost of production (around $4.50 each!) and everyone is allowed and encourage to make as many (non-profit) copies for other people as they wish. If this is moneymaking, then it's a pretty poor way to set about it!
I hope this light can at least remove that objection :-)
On to the other issue...
I personally have felt some subjective benefit from using EFT in the past and will experimenting in incorporating this into my program of getting in touch with the unconscious rage, as I progress with reprogramming my mind according to the TMS diagnosis.
I see it as serving the same purpose to TMS as psychoanalysis, which is accepted as effective for a percentage of the TMS-diagnosed. In that way, to me it could be relevant to the discussion, depending on your beliefs.
However, the models of how EFT and Psychoanalysis work aren't compatible, agreed.
EFT is all about freeing the "chi" energies bound up inside with unconscious rage and other emotions. If you don't believe such energies exist, then it clearly isn't for you!
I don't see this should discourage those inclined to do so to attempt their own bridge between these two. I think it would be beneficial to some of us if we were free to discuss these attempts here too.
As the moderator here, you have the last word on whether that is acceptable or not.
Cheers,
Greg.
"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
| Dave |
Posted - 09/18/2005 : 08:36:52
quote:
Originally posted by mala
There is a huge difference here. Chiropractice keeps one focused on the physical always, whereas if you really spend some time reading about EFT you will know that it focuses on emotions and requires that you deal with emotional issues to resolve physical pain.
So does psychotherapy. My point is that the same result can be achieved without the tapping technique.
quote:
Oh, and links on this site don't do exactly the same thing ??? Do doctors like Scheceter, Angelou, Sopher treat people for free just coz it's tms? Marc Sopher is trying to sell his book on line, Scehecter on his main home page advertises like crazy trying to sell his workbook, videos and CDs. In fact he also advertises that he will treat patients long distance if they first send him a cheque.
These doctors treat TMS and they have a track record. They are not selling some pseudo-scientific technique.quote:
Recovery from TMS requires no special techniques. What do you mean? Sarno in his lectures and books tells us how to deal with tms and those are techniques aren't they?
I should have said physical techniques.quote:
Let's all encourage sensible discussion here and open up more possibilities for people to recover from pain for ultimately that is the main goal isn't it.
Absolutely. And that's my point. Pursue pseudo-science like EFT, or do the work to recover from TMS. It's your choice.
As moderator I do not wish this board to go down the path of discussing every new unproven questionable technique that may or may not help us get in touch with emotions, that may or may not help TMS. |
| mala |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 19:24:48
"If EFT works for you, that's great. Many people say the same thing about chiropractic, but those who truly believe in TMS accept that chiropractic treatment is ineffective. There are hundreds of other techniques that may provide temporary relief due to the placebo effect."
There is a huge difference here. Chiropractice keeps one focused on the physical always, whereas if you really spend some time reading about EFT you will know that it focuses on emotions and requires that you deal with emotional issues to resolve physical pain.
"My main objection to this thread is advertising of the 'emofree' website. This website is not a public service that exists to distribute 'free' information. It is a marketing website to sell books and videos and to promote doctors. If you don't believe that then you are fooling yourself. This forum does not permit advertising or promotion, and therefore I do not appreciate links to such websites."
Oh, and links on this site don't do exactly the same thing ??? Do doctors like Scheceter, Angelou, Sopher treat people for free just coz it's tms? Marc Sopher is trying to sell his book on line, Scehecter on his main home page advertises like crazy trying to sell his workbook, videos and CDs. In fact he also advertises that he will treat patients long distance if they first send him a cheque.
"I believe that if one pursues EFT and other similar techniques in an effort to cure their TMS then they are missing the point of Dr. Sarno's work. Recovery from TMS requires no special techniques"
Recovery from TMS requires no special techniques. What do you mean? Sarno in his lectures and books tells us how to deal with tms and those are techniques aren't they? Eg. 'Think psychological, not physical' is a technique that we all use and there are lists of more . Because Sarno himeself is still discovering more about tms (and he admits that there are a lot of things he still doesn't completely understand about it) each one of us has to find our own techniques and as long as they comply with the idea of tms, discussion should be encouraged not discouraged. Like Peter, it was my psychotherapist who first encouraged me to try EFT when I went to see her on Sarno's recommendation. I used it as a tool to tms recovery.
Let's all encourage sensible discussion here and open up more possibilities for people to recover from pain for ultimately that is the main goal isn't it.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| art |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 17:43:21
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
(art) The beauty of TMS is that it requires no outside agent, no techniques, no systems, no "laying on of hands," no nothing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hilary wrote quote:
:Definitely not true for me. I gave up early on because I was on my own with no-one to give me guidance. It was only because of an “outside agent” that I came back to trying TMS and was eventually successful. Even then it was hard – no access to a TMS doc or psychotherapist.
My point is that there's nothing about TMS treatment inherently requiring an outside agent. True, some need help to find their way. But unlike these other techniques that require some sort of "professional" and of course costly laying on of hands, the TMS cure is to be found largely within ourselves.
I'm not sure why that isn't clear. It's an extremely empowering and liberating concept as far as I'm concerned. Were I able to get back just half the money I've spent on quack cures in my life, I'd probably have enough to sail around the world if I wanted.
I'm also not sure why this has become such a big deal to me, so I think from now on I'll move to the sidelines and read what if anything others have to say.
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| HilaryN |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 17:21:18
quote:
(art) The beauty of TMS is that it requires no outside agent, no techniques, no systems, no "laying on of hands," no nothing.
Definitely not true for me. I gave up early on because I was on my own with no-one to give me guidance. It was only because of an “outside agent” that I came back to trying TMS and was eventually successful. Even then it was hard – no access to a TMS doc or psychotherapist.
quote:
(Peter) I guess I was the one who started this thread and I do apologize if I have caused a disruption.
I’ve found the thread very interesting, so I’m glad you did.
quote:
(Dave) As for "censorship" let's not forget that this is not a public forum. It is a moderated discussion group. It exists for the purpose of discussing TMS and it is up to the moderator's discretion to decide which topics are valid for discussion. Those who wish to carry on discussions beyond the scope of this forum are free to seek out other websites.
Do you know of any? I’d be interested.
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| art |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 19:28:07
quote:
I am sure you will excuse me, and others in my position, if we want to try to find a method that works for us while not going outside the TMS diagnosis
I have absolutely no problem with any of that. The truth is it's none of my business. I'm simply giving my personal opinion within the context of the TMS forum.
As well, it's very rare for anyone to actually change their minds about this kind of thing. Really, that's pretty much of a given. It's like a political discussion. I doubt whether in the entire history of political debate one side has said to the other. "Wow, you know what? I see the light now. You are absolutely right. How could I have been so blind?"
BY the same token, I'll simply never understand how it is that some can't see through this stuff. BUt of course, they no doubt are saying precisely the same thing about me.
I posted something from the EFT website that to my mind conclusively demonstrated a policy of greed and dishonesty amongst the practitioners, but not a one of the supporters of EFT gave it as much as a second glance, all of which goes to show that the human mind has within it an apparently infinite capacity for ignoring all those facts that might threaten some closely held belief. The standard gambit is either to distort them or deny them..
It has always depressed me slightly that insofar as human belief systems are concerned, it's not the pursuit of objective truth that matters nearly so much as subjective need.
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| n/a |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 18:22:35
quote:
Originally posted by art
The beauty of TMS is that it requires no outside agent, no techniques, no systems, no "laying on of hands," no nothing.
You don't even need to buy a book. There's plenty of totally free info on the Internet.
This is not true for everyone. Sometimes, in fact many times, people with TMS DO require an outside agent and the adoption of some kind of concrete psyhcological method to get in touch with their feelings. That is exactly why many of us are in psychotherapy, and are $pending a bundle of money too. There are those who recover after reading Dr. Sarno's excellent books (I have read them both at least 10 times) and a few weeks of mental work, then there are the rest of us who do not find that is enough. Telling people to "think psychologically" is quite easy to say, and it is sound advice, but when one is in extreme pain and it does not go away they have to be offered more than that. They need a method or a concrete strategy which will help them accomplish this goal. Not everyone who is not Dr. Sarno are dishonest (I am sure Dr. Sarno does not work and write books for free) and they too have their testimonials from recognized physicians. Surely this cannot be dismissed. If these methods are helping people connect with their inner self in order to find the source of their pain then I think we should no knock it. There may be some who wants to wait for the 10,000 recovered patients before being convinced, but some people are not willing to wait that long because they are suffering.
All of us here (I think) are in agreement with the TMS diagnosis and that it is necessary to look at past traumas, current stressors, and personality types and how these impact on our inner child and inner parent to bring about a recovery. But, as I stated, some of us need a systematic method on how to accomplish this. EMDR and EFT, recommended by at least one TMS doctor, may be good for some of us but not all. I personally find reading some good pyschological books, meditating and journaling to be the most effective, but even with all that I am still in pain. I also I am going to a pshycotherapist every week. I am sure you will excuse me, and others in my position, if we want to try to find a method that works for us while not going outside the TMS diagnosis.
I guess I was the one who started this thread and I do apologize if I have caused a disruption. I am reading way outside the TMS literature with such writes as Nathaniel Branden and Byron Katie, to name but two authors, to help me get in touch with my feelings. They say nothing about TMS, but their work is valid for those who have this horrid condition as it helps them travel the road of self discovery. |
| art |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 09:31:48
The fact is, I could say to a thousand people that I have this new technique to cure illness by rubbing their belly in a circular fashion in order to say, "strengthen their core energy field."
It's utter gibberish, but if I'm convincing a surprising number will report improvement or "cure." For some, this will be a placebo effect. Others were just due to get better any way, because whatever it was that had been bothering them was healing.
I can set up a website, fill it with testimonials, and I'm off and running.
The beauty of TMS is that it requires no outside agent, no techniques, no systems, no "laying on of hands," no nothing.
You don't even need to buy a book. There's plenty of totally free info on the Internet.
I agree with Dave that those who are using this as some sort of adjunct treament for TMS are missing the point.
It has always seemed to me that believing in just about evrything is tantamount to believing in nothing.
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 09:09:51
Anthony Robbins(everybody cringes)
Once gave a seminar entitled "why all therapies work sometimes".In it,he discussed a doctor using a 'tapping technique' in which he could un-program negative associations from a persons brain,i.e. irrational fears,phobias,smoking.
He had 2 people from the audience come up...one with a fear of Ladders(a woman) the other with a fear of snakes.The woman conquered her fear on camera,but much to the Doctors dismay,the snake-phobic did not.
The woman was elated as 'her husband had promised her a shopping spree if she could climb the ladder,while the snake-o-phobe said "well...I guess I don't WANT to be OK with snakes"
This would all be well explained by Motivation and Placebo.There was nothing 'new' that the Doctor was doing.
Many times in therapy while in the throes of TMS I THOUGHT I was recovering,always to have a worse relapse of pain.Having been pain free for going on 7 years,I can assure you that TMS is NO placebo.
Many,many new techniques come out every year to treat a multitude of maladies.....and just as many go by the wayside.
Dave is spot on.....
Baseball65 |
| Dave |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 07:59:51
quote:
Originally posted by mala
So what part of EFT is it that you find objectionable? If you are going to close the discussion could please at least be more specific?
I do not necessarily find the whole idea of EFT "objectionable."
Personally, I don't believe the "gimmicks" of EFT and similar techniques have any merit. Show me a doctor who has used EFT for 30 years on over 10,000 patients with documented success and then maybe you will change my mind.
Personally, I believe if EFT is successful it is due to the skill of the practitioner as a psychotherapist, not the gimmick. It is also possible the gimmick provides some kind of placebo effect.
These are my opinions. As for EFT as a topic of discussion, I do not believe it is relevant to TMS. I believe that if one pursues EFT and other similar techniques in an effort to cure their TMS then they are missing the point of Dr. Sarno's work. Recovery from TMS requires no special techniques.
If EFT works for you, that's great. Many people say the same thing about chiropractic, but those who truly believe in TMS accept that chiropractic treatment is ineffective. There are hundreds of other techniques that may provide temporary relief due to the placebo effect.
My main objection to this thread is advertising of the 'emofree' website. This website is not a public service that exists to distribute 'free' information. It is a marketing website to sell books and videos and to promote doctors. If you don't believe that then you are fooling yourself. This forum does not permit advertising or promotion, and therefore I do not appreciate links to such websites.
As for "censorship" let's not forget that this is not a public forum. It is a moderated discussion group. It exists for the purpose of discussing TMS and it is up to the moderator's discretion to decide which topics are valid for discussion. Those who wish to carry on discussions beyond the scope of this forum are free to seek out other websites. |
| n/a |
Posted - 09/16/2005 : 01:56:35
I also have been reading this thread with interest and it's got me thinking about where someone should draw the line between the core treatment: ie - the understanding and acceptance of the concept of TMS and treatments used as an adjunct to this.
If something helps to overcome anxiety and irrational fear that so often accompanies the distressing physical symptoms of TMS; then can that ever be harmful? Meditation such as that outlined by Jon Kabut-Zinn or techniques to overcome fear described so well by the late Dr Claire Weekes don't, in my opinion, contradict or undermine the central premise of Dr Sarno's TMS in any way.
Where the water becomes a bit muddy in my mind is where a technique works as a distraction - for example autogenic training or the Alexander Technique which do not actually contradict TMS theory, but do keep a person focussed on the physical, even though their aim is to achieve whole body relaxation or whole body fitness.
Where a technique obliges a person to accept that something physical is the cause of their pain and needs to be fixed - such a chiropractic treatments, then obviously if a person continues with those, then they wont get better.
There can never be a one size fits all method of recovery - for me, anything that helped my brain to calm down was worth considering, but anything that undermined the idea that my back pain originated in my brain was not. |
| mala |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 23:32:17
I've been reading the messages on this thread with a lot of interest.
Peter I think that EFT helped me enormously in the intial stages in my fight against TMS. What it did was that it allowed me to focus on the emotions which sarno believes are the cause of our pain. I stopped it and haven't used it for a very long time. When I was in a lot of pain and I couldn't focus on anything psychological, at that time the tapping took the edge off the pain and the verbal reaffirmations enabled me to think about my emotions and what was happening in my life. As I became more adept at finding and identifying the source of my pain and began dealing with it better emotionally, I found one day that I didn't need it anymore. It is a powerfull tool for recovery when used in conjunction with the tms diagnosis and I would never pooh pooh it. I didn't pay a single penny for anything. There is more than enough information on the website for you to glean what you need with reference to tms
Dave , EFT may seem as questionable to you as the idea of tms is to many people out there with pain. Just as others heve chosen to shun the idea of tms so have you also closed your mind to the possibility that there are many paths and ways of dealing with psychological and emotional issues. The fact that you could even want people here to end this discussion becoz it is not going the way you wanted is scary in that it reeks of censorship. No one here is saying that it isn't tms. We all acknowledge that. So what part of EFT is it that you find objectionable? If you are going to close the discussion could please at least be more specific?
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| n/a |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 15:41:54
Dr. Bernie Seigal in one of his books wrote that if someone comes to him using a method that is working for them he will never use his position as a doctor to shatter their confidence or faith in that method. But we, somehow, have no problem doing that at all. I find it so mean, just so utterly mean and I cannot put my finger on it. |
| art |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 10:40:00
quote:
Please, let's end this discussion now and get back to true TMS topics.
Amen |
| Dave |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 09:12:30
If you believe the emofree website exists only to distribute the "free" workbook and not actually to sell stuff, then I think you are fooling yourself.
It is offensive to put EFT and TMS in the same sentence. TMS is not a technique. It is a diagnosis. It is a theory developed over 30+ years based on thousands of clinical cases.
If you believe EFT is a complement to TMS treatment than you may as well go for physical therapy and chiropractic treatments. Keep looking for answers, and you are simply distracting yourself further from the real work that is necessary to overcome TMS.
Please, let's end this discussion now and get back to true TMS topics. |
| art |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 09:10:41
quote:
It is designed to free your emotional issues and I see it as a complement to TMS therapy.
What does this even mean exactly? In other words, what is an emotional issue and how is it freed by means of EFT? |
| Lmvine |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 08:27:15
Hey, the workbook to learn EFT is FREE. And IMO it is not a physical distraction. It is designed to free your emotional issues and I see it as a complement to TMS therapy.
Just like TMS the "AMA type" community looks at both EFT & TMS as a threat.
As to food alergies/sensitivities test the object by muscle testing google to see how to do then if sensitive clear the issue with the EFT procedure. It has worked for me and my wife.
Just like Sarno & Schechter have people who get better quickly (by reading ther book) EFT has "one minute wonders" that I have seen. But these case for TMS & EFT are the exception as we all know.
Peter, who is the TMS do who recommended EFT??
Dan |
| art |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 03:39:09
quote:
The problem is the recommending doctor does not get a cent from these treatments
I don't understand your point Peter. Presumably he's got plenty of paying golfers of his own..
This is indicative of a certain mind set, an underlying naked and cynical greed that is to me an utter turn off. He says to pretend they're doing a "study" in order to get their foot in the door. Not only is it greedy, it's dishonest. |
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