| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Suz |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 11:04:56
I had a terrible but very enlightening weekend. Many of you know that I have been having terrible back spasms and fatigue.
Over last weekend, i realized that my fiance and I have radically different ideas about marriage. I have been experiencing terrible anxiety about the impending marriage. My fiance broke to me that he is unable to support himself (he lives with his mother) and he has no idea when or if his job will turn around. It is commission based and takes about 10 years to get anywhere. He told me that he is basically expecting me to support him as his mother does. He wants me to work for the rest of my life and we hope to have children that he wants his mother to bring up as our nanny. He said that she never got the opportunity to be with her children. He thinks that my desire to be home with children is not attainable and unrealistic.
I sat with him last night and cried and cried for about an hour and a half. I really made my point and realized that I cannot do this kind of marriage. My last marriage was fraught with terrible money issues as my ex husband did not have any security.
I believe that this is the root of all of my terrible pain. My pain started 12 years ago during engagemnt to my ex husband. I always thought he was too immature and not ready. I ignored the signs. I have been doing the same time this time round. It must have been creating a terrible conflict in me.
I am very very sad as I love him but I have always known that something is wrong. I think I love him as a wonderful friend but that is not enough. A voice in me has often said "this man is not right for you" - not only because of money but other things too.
Last night, my back wasn't painful at all. Today, I have no fatigue even though I didn't sleep that well.
What a difference. I am a bit of an emotional wreck and seem to be crying a lot. I guess I am really dealing with this instead of numbing |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Suz |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 16:20:54
Michele,
As a catholic, that is part of my faith. Children are a huge reason for marriage - of course, you have to have love first! I think I was so desperate to have a family and be married that I rushed in regardless of our problems.
Suz |
| Michele |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 16:11:40
quote:
Originally posted by Suz
Maybe I shouldn't worry about money so much and have faith that everything will work itself out.
My fiance said that he would definitely love to have me not work and be at home but he doesn't know how that could happen.
I don't believe that we should wait to have children at the beginning of the marriage where as he thinks we should wait for at least a year.
I think that the whole point of marriage is to have children.
I don't really know what to think any more. I am so frightened that this relationship is over - I don't think I have experienced this much confusion and fear in a long time.
Suz, from reading all these posts, it is clear the relationship won't change from what it is now. He also sounds like a smooth talker. I highlighted the above sentence because if you are getting married to have children, then you definitely shouldn't get married.
The best book I ever read was "The Road Less Traveled" by M. Scott Peck. Maybe while you are taking a breather you could pick it up. Dr. Peck opened my eyes to what love really is, and also about marriage.
Unfortunately, I read the book AFTER I had been married for several years. If I had listened to my inner voice and my gut 25 years ago, I would not have married my husband. Now 25 years later, I am too scared to move on. We are in counseling with a wonderful therapist, who has helped me personally. I have to at least give it one last shot.
I, too, think my husband has beautiful characteristics about him and love him dearly. He's an amazing father. As a husband, he sucks. LOL! But, I was "comfortable" in the relationship because it was all I knew. I wanted attention, he gave it to me. No one ever listened to me, and neither did he. People violated my physical and emotional boundaries all my life, and he does too, or at least tries since I've tried to put a stop to it. Over the past 10-15 years I have done alot of soul searching, finding my true self, and all it's done is p*ss him off. He wants me the way I was in 1980! Oh my gosh, that's the LAST person I want to be!
Be true to YOURSELF Suz. If it doesn't FEEL good, then it probably isn't good. |
| Dave |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 15:14:41
Take your own advice. Give yourselves a break. Tell him you do not want to talk to him for a minimum of 2 weeks (or go for a month if you're up for it).
One thing I've learned in life ... don't count on people to change. You must accept your spouse for who they are, unconditionally.
Based on your posts here (and your body's communication with you) I think your mind is pretty well made up. Trust yourself. Don't put others' feelings above your own. |
| Suz |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 14:58:48
ok. now my fiance is calling me every hour. I think he is freaked out that he is going to lose me. I just don't feel like talking to him and I am not going to bale him out lightly on any of this. Next time he calls, I am going to tell him that I don't feel like talking to him at the moment after everything that has happened and I will get back to him when I feel like it. I just don't care for him right now and I am standing my ground. |
| Suz |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 11:58:28
thanks sandy. I am not sure which way he will go. He just called me this morning and said he will do anything to make this work. He said he loves me and doesn't want to lose me. Words are cheap - I have to see a lot of action to consider going ahead with this. I feel a great sense of confidence this morning that I deserve a lot more than I am getting with him. If the change is impossible -then so be it. I move on. |
| ssjs |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 09:53:35
My therapist once said to me "you can't change something by doing things the same way.
While I do not believe that people usually change on their own...I do believe that people can change based on other peoples reaction to them....If they want to... My guess is that you will always feel the same way you do now...he will always feel the same way he does now....and anyway...He probably doesn't want to change.He is too comfortable.
And in that case he will continue to want no compromise...and you will continue to search for a compromise that is unsatisfactory to you and will cause you to have pain all your life...because you ARE in pain.
I woked in a beauty salon of old women...and although people like to talk about how in the old days people were able to stick it out...I never saw a more miserable bunch of unhappy women in all sorts of pain. Wasted, sad, miserable lives. At the time, I thought that the pain came first...but now I know the truth.
They spent their lives serving out a sentence that wasn't what they really wanted. They were in a life someone else wanted.
Of course, I saw many happy women too! And it wasn't because they were single! It was because they had been true to themselves and were strong enough to get the kind of lives they deserved.
Give yourself what you deserve!
Sandy |
| NLK |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 07:10:20
Suz, you're breaking a long-standing habit... that takes time! Give yourself a break.
One of the best descriptions I've heard of a REAL MAN who is ready for marriage is that he'd "swim through shark-infested water to bring you a lemonade." Your boyfriend (emphasis on BOY) is not a man. He's a child who's been coddled wayyyy too long and given everything he wants without any responsibility.
Just take this day by day - not expecting him to change and suddenly become the man you deserve. Take it day by day, feeling what there is to feel and learning to be on your own. You've discovered the key to what was causing all your pain, so CELEBRATE that wonderful breakthrough! You are whole and complete just as you are... you don't need this guy and he's not healthy for you.
Go easy on yourself... you have much to work through and unlimited potential happiness to look foward to!  |
| Suz |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 21:07:54
I don't know, everyone. I saw my fiance this evening and I am so so sad - I am totally devestated. I am so confused. When I see him, I miss him so much. I tried to have a conversation one on one with him later on the phone (we were with a bunch of people and didn't even say hello to each other) and the phone call just got nasty and weird. He said he is angry at himself and at me. I kept thinking of what my mother said - that she thought he was totally wrong for me etc. etc. I really didn't want to hear that as I really do have feelings for him. I just don't know what to think - I don't seem to have my own thoughts but keep hearing everyone elses. I think I need time to decompress and figure out what to do. Maybe I shouldn't worry about money so much and have faith that everything will work itself out. My fiance said that he would definitely love to have me not work and be at home but he doesn't know how that could happen. I don't believe that we should wait to have children at the beginning of the marriage where as he thinks we should wait for at least a year. I think that the whole point of marriage is to have children. AAAgh - I don't really know what to think any more. I am so frightened that this relationship is over - I don't think I have experienced this much confusion and fear in a long time. |
| Suz |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 16:02:22
Thank you, Laura for your input.
I feel like I have painted such a bad picture of this man. There are some good traits to this man - he is trying to build a career and goes to work every day for 10 hours. He works at New York life and it is all sales - commission based so he said it takes a long time to build up a really good book of business. He does not agree with my idea of home schooling as it means I would not be able to work. He wants them to go to public school. I have not made my final decision on the education as I woudl not be averse to good catholic schooling. We do share a love of the catholic faith - although i am more conservative than him. I think that is what brought us together. There is no doubt that he is thinking that I would be a strong money provider in the marriage. My problem is that he is so immature. It really annoys me that he wears shorts and flipflops to church (noone else does) and he refuses to change for me.
It is amazing how I seem to have changed my opinion of him over the last few days - so dramatically. It all just came over me like a massive light going on. It is so weird. I am really thinking and listening to all my frustrations now.
I think I was caught up in all the marriage preparations etc. I will say that I often look at him and think he is not that attractive - his hand sort of gross me out. (I know - this is pretty ridiculous and shallow). I feel like he is getting a lot with me and I am not getting much in return.
I think I need to really sit and think about all of this and this time GO WITH MY GUT |
| Laura |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 15:05:15
Okay, Baseball, that is really sad. You need to pursue a writing career because you are an amazing writer. It's so sad when someone has a dream and they are never able to realize that dream or it is squashed by something or someone else. Wow! What a story.
Suz,
This guy sounds like the type of "anchor" that Baseball refers to. My opinion is that you need to lose him, as soon as possible. Let me tell you another little story. My husband's sister met a guy and fell madly in love with him. His dream was to become a musician and to make it big. He wanted to write a hit song and spent a small fortune on instruments and equipment for recording, etc. He didn't go to a regular job and he had no money coming in so my sister-in-law was forced to support the two of them, which is gladly did. After awhile this started getting really old but she hung in there. Then, it happened. She got pregnant. He was furious with her and didn't speak to her for days and days. He didn't want a child, he told her (information he should have shared BEFORE having unprotected sex) and was angry at her. They had the baby (my niece) and he fell madly in love with his new daughter. He insisted they name the daughter Zoe because HE liked that name (she didn't but he sold her on it anyway). Everything had to be done his way, never hers. Every day, she got up and went to work and he stayed home with the kid and worked on his music. My sister-in-law grew resentful because she had always dreamed of being a Mom and being able to stay at home and raise her own child. But since her husband couldn't support them it was upto her to be the sole bread winner. Eventually, my sister-in-law wanted another child but he was adamantly against that. He told her it wouldn't "be fair to Zoe" and that he couldn't love another child as much as he loved Zoe. My sister-in-law was devastated. She had no say in the number of kids they would have, she had no say in whether or not she could stay at home, she had no say in anything. She grew very resentful and they finally divorced, with a judge ruling that she needed to pay her ex child support so that "when Zoe is at her Dad's house she can enjoy the same luxuries that she enjoys at her mother's." Also, she was ordred by the courts to pay child support because she is the bread winner and has been since day one. My sister-in-law angrily pays him child support every month and resents the heck out of it. Her ex now has a very well paying job writing music for a popular reality t.v. show. When push came to shove, he was able to pull his weight and start earning some money.
I'm telling you, Suz, all the warning lights are going off - you just need to pay attention to them and listen to them. This guy sounds like he's got it all worked out and could care less about any of your opinions on anything. He expects you to go to work like a good wife, have his children, home school them AND have his mother be their nanny. You know this is all wrong - that's why you are questioning it. Trust the voice inside of you. It's screaming at you right now!
Good luck.
Laura
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 13:36:55
quote:
Is there no chance that you could pursue something else at this point in time? Could you start thinking about your desires and still do it in the context of your marriage?
I guess you are trying to tell me that I should look at the red flags now - the warning signs when I have the ability to.
Let's see.I have no job going on right now.I have been writing songs and playing guitar for a week.My wife will come home tonight and ask what I did all day.I'll tell her I worked on Music and she'll be angry.
After she didn't get her 'big score' i.e. being a Rock stars wife,she's never realized how many thousands of hours it takes to be a successful musician.
so,NO I do not think I could ever be professionally successful in a home in which she lives.I am made to feel like a BUM for pursuing my dreams.
Baseball65 |
| Suz |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 13:14:25
Baseball,
I am so so sorry for all you are going through. I guess - a congratulations though for the pregnancy. Is there no chance that you could pursue something else at this point in time? Could you start thinking about your desires and still do it in the context of your marriage?
I guess you are trying to tell me that I should look at the red flags now - the warning signs when I have the ability to. This has all been on my fiance's terms and not mine and he is furious. It is as if I have seen the light.
I just had a conversation with my mother - aaaaagh! She is so relieved as she never thought he was right. She thought that he was very immature and has been dying to tell me but didn't want to break it to me. She said that I seemed so happy. I don't want to be swayed by my mother's opinion as her influence is normally very strong over me. I have not made up my mind as to what to do. I just hate that she might be right. |
| Suz |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 11:22:32
Miehnesor,
Thank you so much for your input.
I had the best night's sleep last night without any pain. I don't have any tiredness today. I am eating whatever I want - even had a sandwich for lunch. I haven't eaten wheat and cheese in 10 years. I do have some neck pain and a little upper back pain - but I stopped paying attention and it went away.
My emotions are very very uncomfortable - sort of swing from wanting to cry to anger to dismay.
I heard that my best friend's husband had a talk with my fiance - a long one. Apparently, my fiance was very angry. Who does the hell does he think he is being angry??? He is angry that I don't want to work for my life and want to bring up children at home - I would like to educate them. He told me yesterday in a furious tone that it was as if I was expecting him to work himself into the ground while I lie around doing nothing - hmm, child rearing is nothing. I told him I would live in a small rented appartment to do this. This man obviously has no intention to work and wants a free ride. He has always commented on how smart I am and how much he thinks I could earn. I feel so used. I have this doomed feeling that if I marry him, he will be totally inflexible and just expect me to do whatever he wants. My friend said he went away last night with a lot to think about.
I am so turned off by it all now. I don't know what would ever turn me around. The bottom line is that he is not capable of supporting a family and I can't risk that. he is not mature enough and has no idea about marriage. My ex husband was very irresponsible and had a hard time keeping a job. I will not repeat this.
Phew! I guess I am angry - very angry and I feel let down.
Our relationship has been up and down for the last 3 years. I really think I have been thinking of his feelings and not my own.
For some reason, I won't budge now and that is it.
I just find it amazing and almost unreal that this pain has come from this terrible torment inside. Now I have uncovered it, the pain has gone.
I guess I should have known that it came from this because my pain started 12 years ago during this time. I thought the whole thing was just related to my mother as my relationship is so difficult with her. In fact, the psychologist has always supported my relationship with Jerome and it is only through a friend that all of this came through. I wonder now how to deal with this with the pschologist. Part of me feels that I might be ok now on my own.
It will take a lot for me to stay with this man - it may not be possible. He does have wonderful qualities - I just can't see them right now |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 11:02:49
Hi Suz.
Like Joan Rivers says,Can We Talk?
Advice and opinions are abundant in times like yours,but I thought if I illuminated an anecdote,it might convey some wisdom(that I didn't follow)
So.I'm a singer in a Rock Band in Hollywood,Ca.
I make my living doing construction,just keeping body and soul together.I live in an empty house that doubles as my bands rehearsal studio,sleeping on the floor.My rent is 200 dollars a month,and I make about 2000.I eat Ramen Noodles and Hot dogs and spend the rest in clubs and Bars.I am as Happy as a Pig in %#@!
I'm Peter Pan
Than,I meet this girl.A wonderful girl if ever there was one.I ditch every other prospect and start going out with her exclusively.She's PerFeCt!! She's sweet,fun and Beautiful.We hit it off right away and We decide to get Married.Yay.
After the initial infatuation wears off,I realize she has a severe personality flaw.Any time we get into an arguement and she's clearly 'wrong' or 'out of bounds',rather than discuss it to it's resolution,she goes silent.She has obviously been brought up in the 'just ignore it and it will go away' school of humanities.This is exasperating beyond my patience,as I grew up in a 'work it out through reason and open discussion' way of life.She is also constitutionally incapable of saying the words 'I am sorry'...
My best friend and Drummer lives with us .He sees My Fiance' do this,and tells me that we better work it out before we get married or it could become a BIG problem.He was married for 10 years and just recently divorced
I decide that ,in spite of our engagement to be married in 5 months,that I want her to move out until after the Marriage.I assumed that the distance and time apart might give me the leverage to encourage her to address her sullen/silent/denial way of dealing with stuff...and that way I can escape her reign of psychological tyranny,for that is what it amounts to.Also,in spite of my 100% faithfulness,she's starting to get awfully clingy when I have to go and play music...Jealous.She's starting to become an Anchor,not a buoy.
So,I'm going to tell her to move out...today.She comes home from work and before I say anything,she tells ME she has something to tell ME.
??????????
I tell her "You go first",hoping that it's something like:"I want to move out,because...."
No such luck.
She's Pregnant.
"So...what were you going to tell me?" she asks.
Uhhh....nothing.
Now,I don't need to recap what you've probably seen me posting about for the last month or so.She has still NEVER gotten over that problem,and we've had a LOT of friction for the last...uhhh...13 years? I was a likely prospect in the Music Biz,but had to try and squeeze that in around being a 'straight' guy and being a Father(Moral Imperative).If I had had the courage to confront her back then,it might have averted a LOT of pain for both of us.Any scorn and rejection from Family members about being unwed parents would have been a light sentence compared with the Hellish conditions we have subjected ourselves to for a decade plus.
I have No regrets about being a Father..hell,we even intentionally had another.The point I'm trying to illuminate is that I should have pressed the issue when I had some leverage....now we're still having the same fights about the same stuff,But I have No music career,gave up doing what I loved whilst she has moved up and onward with her own career.There is an extreme imbalance between our Karmas.Somewhere along the way,I guess I tricked myself into believing that I LIKED being a construction worker,that I LIKED being a Housewife,That I LIKED being ignored and left alone,while she goes on all her business trips.It wasn't until I recovered from my Back Pain that I dug really,really deep and realized that I had been lying to myself for a long time.
Hell,at one point I thought she was having an affair with a co-worker and I wasn't angry...I was relieved!.THAT'S SICK!!
I could now leave the relationship and have the moral High ground.Unfortunately,I was wrong,or at least it appeared as much
I stopped being me,but she went right along being herself......something I got a sniff of back in '91 is all but rotted away.
People don't change.They grow,they evolve,they regress,they become well and they become sick,but they do NOT change.
sorry to sound so bleak.....I usually like to be upbeat about these things,but lately I've been viewing the world through dark blue lenses...no roses to be found anywhere!!
peace
Baseball65 |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 10:42:46
Suz- You are going through a lot of emotional pain right now but isn't it a lot better than going throught the TMS pain.
I can really relate to what you are going through because many years ago I was in the same situation- wondering should I take the plunge or not. Finally I decided to go for it and then my body - my gut feelings- interveined in a dramatic way telling me it was wrong. It showed up as inability to sleep and finally panic attacks (the first and hopefully the last time).
You are now listening and feeling what you need to feel right now and you will choose a more compatible man next time around because you are more connected to your feelings. Feeling definitely have wisdom and can steer you in the right direction for you.
Good for you Suz - you are very courageous! |
| Albert |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 10:12:31
Suz:
Now that you've provided more details, it seems like he's depending on you too much. My guess is that you're looking to be a wife, not somebody's meal ticket. Ten years before he'll make any money? Maybe he needs to come up with a better plan. |
| Kajsa |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 02:10:57
I can see that this was a hard decision Suz !
And it is absolute natural that you get a kind of back-lash - you were going to be married and now
you are not getting married.
But it sounds to me like a very good step (though it hurts). Actually your body told you so.
I think you made a brave and very important step! Crucial for your health.
Yes ,”reverse therapy” is ALL about emotions. How emotions creates fear in your body -
and how to deal with it. You find a lot of information on the webb.
I can tell you more about it later - right now I guess you have a lot of other things on your mind.
All the best
Kajsa
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| Suz |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 20:21:20
Thank you everyone. I am feeling totally upside down and scared this evening. I am angry and feel like I don't even know my fiance. I think it is significant that my pain has gone. The pain in the upper back was excruciating and after I cried for a couple of hours, it left me - just gone. I was crying at how sad it all was. I so wanted to get married and thought he was my best friend in the world. It just seems that the circumstances are against us and all that I suspected about him was true. He never wanted me to be able to be at home and bring up children- he always wanted me to work. I also never knew that he could not support himself - and he is 35 years old. He depends on his mother. I really respected him for persevering with his career - that takes a long time to have success in. But he told me it would possibly take 10 years to make any money. I feel used - as if it was all up to me. I am paying for all the wedding details and honeymoon and moving into a new appartment. I was also about to buy him a car as his lease was running out. He was very grateful and said that my offer to do this really showed what a team we were. I never felt like we were a team - it was just me doing it all.
He is so so angry at me and I feel like I am the bad guy.
He proposed to me back in April - around a time when we were arguing all the time. It was as if he thought that a ring would make it all go away. I was also at fault for accepting. He spent thousands on the ring - all his savings - which is crazy. I don't want to wear it now as I feel so depressed. We are supposedly still engaged.
I feel very lost as he has been my closest friend for the last 4 years and I don't know how I will manage without him. I have my faith to get me through this so I am praying a lot which helps.
It is just that the loneliness is scary. I also have guilt that he might be in pain. This all happened so fast and I feel that the wind has been knocked out of me.
Thank goodness for this wonderful forum - I appreciate all the support so much right now - thank you to all of you.
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| NLK |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 18:09:27
Suz, no need to second guess yourself. You made the right decision. Don't let habit convince you to go back, or that "he'll change", or that "it'll be ok". The very fact that you've had such a remarkable absence of pain would seem to indicate just how much of a mismatch you were. It's tough to be alone right now - but maybe you can think of it as an opportunity to be with yourself for awhile as you continue to work through all this with your doc.
Take a good long while to work this out and integrate everything. There's no rush, and when the time is right, Mr. Right will come along. If you rush it, you'll find another mismatch, but if you're patient, you'll find someone who exceeds your every expectation. I'm living proof of that :-)
Keep up the good work and keep posting here... we're all here to support you!!
:-)
Nancy |
| Albert |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 16:22:03
Suz:
Of course you're the only who can tell whether it's time to end the relationship. It's hard to find relationships that are perfect, if at all. Perhaps if you made a list of pros and cons, you might get a better feeling. Make certain that any reservations you have aren't just usual pre-marriage fears.
I don't know how the mother/wife factor plays into it. I don't know whether such a thing could be worked out. I don't have any experience in this area. It's worth thinking about though. |
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