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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
 Posted - 09/14/2014 : 19:13:14
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
[quote]
Please let's be serious.
WHY??? It's a proven fact being serious is what gives one TMS! I'm more into "Off the rails", in fact I'm gonna' get a tattoo to memorialize the credo. We can now add "wow", "ignorant", "arrogant" and "drivel" to the vocabulary of this serious discussion--science marches on. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2014 : 20:14:48
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quote:
science marches on
TT, it is not science believe me. Science needs some proof. Marches on? Well, honestly I think Sarno is slowly getting forgotten (and I am the first one to regret it deeply). But this is the typical claim that makes the anti-Sarno crowd cheer and mock the theory.
TT, I am really puzzled by the advice you give sometimes.
To recommend traveling half the world to see a TMS doctor whose training may or may not line up with your problem area. To get that deer in the headlights look from aforementioned doctor does not accomplish much.
There is a major risk of nocebo at worst or simply another major distraction.
Or that obsession of yours to read and reread various TMS books so that you'll get imprinted some TMS knowledge at the molecular level.
There is no proof whatsoever that it is effective. It is another distraction that prevents you from addressing your emotions and doing the work. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2014 : 20:34:50
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
quote:
science marches on
Or that obsession of yours to read and reread various TMS books so that you'll get imprinted some TMS knowledge at the molecular level.
There is no proof whatsoever that it is effective. It is another distraction that prevents you from addressing your emotions and doing the work.
Ignorance must be bliss, thank you Dr. Freud! I advise you to read and reread my posts since you clearly are clueless as to what I have written--READING COMPREHENSION PLEASE! |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2014 : 21:34:23
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I am not sure what you mean by my cluelessness and my defective reading comprehension. I am quoting you here with the first 2 examples I found:
quote:
You can try doing what worked before, crack open a TMS book for a "TMS KNOWLEDGE PENICILLIN BOOSTER". You may want to try Nicole Sachs's new TMS book, "THE MEANING OF TRUTH"
The TMS "knowledge penicillin" has to sink into your subconscious on a cellular level. I would suggest to continue reading the books. There are a couple by other TMS authors that might resonate with you since you are athletic, Dr. Marc Sopher, Fred Amir, and Dr. Brady's.
According to what I quoted, you say that reading more books acts as a TMS penicillin booster that sinks in the subconscious at the cellular level.
Isn't it what I said in my previous post?
Do you not agree that at some point, reading one book after another is a giant distraction? That totally plays with the TMS strategy? You are not addressing your emotions by reading books. |
Edited by - alix on 09/14/2014 23:28:00 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 00:13:52
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
Do you not agree that at some point, reading one book after another is a giant distraction? That totally plays with the TMS strategy? You are not addressing your emotions by reading books.
Next to the Holy Bible I can't think of better reading material for those who want to attain and maintain a healthy MINDBODY. This is the TMS Help Forum, what do you expect me to say?--although many times it resembles the anti-TMS forum.
I don't know how you can determine whether I have addressed my emotions, you have NEVER met me. I think you and un-named others are taking this thing WAY too seriously. Anytime someone like Mala comes here and says it wasn't TMS BEWARE!!! The board freaks out and half of the people split like the last time someone came here and said they had cancer. You either get it or you don't, but you'll never get it if you don't understand the fundamentals of TMS. I'm not coming here asking for help but I sure as hell know I've helped hundreds get accurate TMS info and they go on to lead active lives because they have told me so. TMS for me is something I'm interested in, a hobby like stamp collecting. I just find it interesting, that's all.
The basic credo of TMS and I'll state it again, is to get a medical work-up to eliminate serious conditions like the proverbial TUMOR! before taking the TMS/psychosomatic approach. We are all ultimately responsible for our health and the medical choices we make. No one comes here first. If your doc missed something obviously structural there are many lawyers who will be happy to sue for malpractice for you.
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Edited by - tennis tom on 09/15/2014 00:15:42 |
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Darko
Australia
387 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 03:37:23
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quote:
Anytime someone like Mala comes here and says it wasn't TMS BEWARE!!! The board freaks out and half of the people split like the last time someone came here and said they had cancer
The only people I have seen freak out as a result of Mala's post are yourself and Ace1. Her case wasn't TMS....what's the big deal? If people think she doesn't get TMS then that's her problem.....anyone else reading her posts will figure out pretty quickly if they should listen to her advice or not.
I don't think she was saying TMS was invalid, she was simply implying that people should do their homework and not assume everything is TMS, as she mistakenly did. Is that bad advice??
I also find your rational and mature responses to genuine posts quite entertaining. "I'm glad I'm not your husband" gave me a good laugh ( you never know, Mala could be smokin hot ).....I also like how you manage to be abrasive with just about everyone that doesn't agree with your belief. Quality stuff
D |
Edited by - Darko on 09/15/2014 04:00:55 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 06:00:59
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D, I'm glad you're taking this all with a sense of humor and I was able to amuse you, it is a scientific fact that humor is a beneficial tonic. But for the record, it was the OP who introduced the terms "ignorant", "arrogant" and "drivel" to the discourse. Ace1 was NOT freaking out, if you read his reply it was reasoned and presents a deeper view of TMS, that there are more serious conditions that could be caused by TMS/psychosomatic dis-ease as Dr. Sarno has stated in the evolution of his theory.
Maybe by the time threads reach down-under, things get twisted around, like the bathwater does flowing down the drain in the opposite direction.
BTW, have you seen any of the new Mini Mokes made in China down your way? They're called Chokes, the electric one sounds interesting, really fast!
Cheers mate, glad to be of service,
tt/lsmft |
Edited by - tennis tom on 09/15/2014 06:07:55 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 09:33:29
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quote:
I don't know how you can determine whether I have addressed my emotions, you have NEVER met me. I think you and un-named others are taking this thing WAY too seriously.
TT. I never said that it was about YOU. I am talking about your advise to OTHERS.
I am even more puzzled now. Let me ask you. Somebody has read HBP and a couple of other books. They understand TMS very well but are still in pain. Do you think that reading one more book will:
1) Act as TMS penicillin booster that sinks in the subconscious at the cellular level and will bring them closer to healing.
2) Be another distraction that will inevitably delay their recovery. While that awesome new TMS book is a wonderful page turner where they recognize themselves in every paragraph, they are still not addressing their emotions.
Do you still believe 1) is the correct answer because...? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 14:16:12
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
quote:
I don't know how you can determine whether I have addressed my emotions, you have NEVER met me. I think you and un-named others are taking this thing WAY too seriously.
TT. I never said that it was about YOU. I am talking about your advise to OTHERS.
I am even more puzzled now. Let me ask you. Somebody has read HBP and a couple of other books. They understand TMS very well but are still in pain. Do you think that reading one more book will:
1) Act as TMS penicillin booster that sinks in the subconscious at the cellular level and will bring them closer to healing.
2) Be another distraction that will inevitably delay their recovery. While that awesome new TMS book is a wonderful page turner where they recognize themselves in every paragraph, they are still not addressing their emotions.
Do you still believe 1) is the correct answer because...?
A, everyone is DIFFERENT, some people take longer to get it, and then may get new symptoms as A PROTECTOR when the vicissitudes of life lays new **** on them.
Have you ever had a BOOSTER for polio or tetanus??? Why wouldn't the mind need one for TMS/psychosomatic dis-eases? Do you remember all of the Good Doc's fundamentals?? Can you recite the "12 Daily Reminders"??
In the end I know this is not about TMS but your unconscious irritation with me--and I am flattered. You didn't go after Mala for her intemperate remarks to Ace1, I'm not the one who lowered the tone of the dialogue here--"IGNORANT" and "ARROGANT" are not very scientific terms.
It's the old "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me," theory. If they are in TMS pain, reading another TMS book will not do any damage. If they get surgery instead--IF IT'S TMS-- there may be un-forseen complications, And if the symptom was from TMS, after the placebo effect of the surgery wears off, the symptom imperative will just lay another new pain site on them.
If they don't get TMS Dr.Sarno would recommend seeing a TMS therapist. That costs money and they are few and far between, although you can Skype them like SteveO and Nicole Saks. I've recommended that OFTEN too, if you recall. Many here just like to curl up in front of the fireplace with a good self-help book, since this is the TMS Forum reading TMS books are what is usually recommended here. Books are cheap, a shrink can go for $150 to $350 per hour. No one will get injured by reading a TMS book. They might get TMS consciously but their sub-conscious may take MUCH longer depending on their PERSONALITY and their life HISTORY--and how SMART they are--usually the "smarter" the longer.
I've discussed TMS over the phone and in person with many and that gives a better insight into their issues. Maybe you can volunteer to do the same and help them to "address their emotions", care to give out your phone number, I have.
A, if you think I give lousy TMS advice, delaying peep's recovery, PLEASE take it up with DAVE--I will be happy to give refunds to all those I've lead astray here--you get what you pay for in this life.
I'm flattered you and D jump out of the wood-work at every opportunity to call me out, now let me ask YOU a question? Do you APPROVE of Mala calling Ace1's learned advice to her as "ARROGANT" and "IGNORANT"??? I haven't seen a peep from you two about that--what say yee's???
Cheers and thanks for the good questions, that was very cathartic and I learned alot from it, now out to the courts and my new distraction, racing cars.
tt/lsmft |
Edited by - tennis tom on 09/15/2014 14:23:01 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 14:45:34
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It is not about you TT. It is not about me either. I have never attacked your character once on this forum.
It is about the advises you give.
I think you fail to grasp what "Think psychological" means. You are not the only one that got completely stuck with it. I got stuck too.
I got what the "think psychological" meant from other forum members and I am very grateful for it.
Going through the motions of addressing TMS is not really addressing the problem.
"Think psychological" is not about reading yet more books and flying across the world to see TMS doctors.
You said "I always strongly suggest consulting with a TMS physician, even if it means traveling great distances even to other continents."
Do you really believe that Mala would have benefited from a visit with a TMS-Doctor specialized in sports medicine? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 15:06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
It is not about you TT. It is not about me either. I have never attacked your character once on this forum.
It is about the advises you give.
I think you fail to grasp what "Think psychological" means. You are not the only one that got completely stuck with it. I got stuck too.
I got what the "think psychological" meant from other forum members and I am very grateful for it.
Going through the motions of addressing TMS is not really addressing the problem.
"Think psychological" is not about reading yet more books and flying across the world to see TMS doctors.
You said "I always strongly suggest consulting with a TMS physician, even if it means traveling great distances even to other continents."
Do you really believe that Mala would have benefited from a visit with a TMS-Doctor specialized in sports medicine?
I fully grasp what "thinking psychological" means, Mala would have definitley benefitted from consulting with a TMS physician, everyone would. Dr. Schubiner spends hours with those who travel to see him. Mala has always said she travels and I recommended to her to combine a trip with a visit to a TMS practitioner. I don't know where you got the TMS sports specialist from, I've never heard of one but if you know of one I'll do a consult with him just for grins, please let me know, I'd appreciate it. Maybe you're thinking of Dr. Sopher because he's running on the cover of his book. Sport pshysicians can benefit a non-athletic type as much as an Olympian, we all have the same number of bones, etc.
I'm not "stuck" are you? How do you jump to that conclusion with out having met me except over a TV screen? Maybe you're projecting? I'm here because I'm fascinated by the topic like many other interests I pursue. I participate on some other boards about tennis, Jeeps and race cars. I've always found the mindbody interesting and I'm here because it's valuable to keep up on the latest TMS info, you could say it's a hobby--I'm not stuck, if anything fully functional if not too functional. I do waste too much time keyboarding at message board--so I'm off to the pool and then to work, catch up with you later.
==================================================
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
Posted by Skizzik @ TMSHelp from comedian Maria Bamford:
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
"All my friends in Los Angeles are the sensitive type. They all have like all the diseases like Chronic Fatigue, Epstien Barr, Fibromyalgia. Like all the diseases where the only symptoms seem to be you had a really crappy childhood and at the prospect of full time work ya feel kinda achy and tired."
Posted by Skizzik @ TMSHelp from comedian Maria Bamford
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod
=================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Dr. Sarno is now retired, if you call this number you will be referred to his associate Dr. Rashbaum.
"...there are so many things little and big that are tms, I wouldn't have time to write about all of them": Told to icelikeaninja by Dr. Sarno
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 15:48:11
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TT, the physician we both consulted is a sports doctor.
You say that you are interested in the latest TMS development yet when some of us deviate from the holy dogma you say that we are "complicating things".
Why do I think you are stuck? Because of your bursts of anger. Because you make everything about yourself. Because you rarely mention the "think psychological" part of Sarno. Also the fact that when you advise people, you always revert to tangible things like reading Nicole's book or visiting a TMS doctor which seems to make you more comfortable than the emotional side.
You know, there is a reason why there are so many mindbody coaches. It is because people get stuck. Stuck while reading TMS books, listening to TMS audio tapes, watching TMS videos, and just distracting themselves. Ultimately, by doing that, they simply continue to repress their emotions. |
Edited by - alix on 09/15/2014 16:09:59 |
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andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 17:14:07
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Has anybody stood beside a field of sheep? You have to stand patiently still and they will all come across the field to check you out for they are curious creatures.
Once one of them bleats they all chorus in baa, baa. Pretty soon there is quite a racket going on, as the more pushy ones at the front get louder and louder, baa baa.
Now there is one sheep at the back (that’s me) who has a voice, but doesn’t quite know what to say. So he decides to eat some of the lush pasture that would otherwise be taken by the pushy sheep. He realizes how lucky he is to be eating and not bleating.
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years, is almost gone.
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 17:23:12
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Alix, this is becoming a broken record, I keep having to write the samr ansers to you--you are projecting, you know absolutely nothing about me--I'm not wasting my time anymore I have a life.
What's wrong with displaying ANGERRR??? It's an emotion, are you stuck on that one? You didn't call out Mala for displaying anger did you, it's OK for her but not for me huh? She's the one who changed the tone of the dialogue with nice anger riddled words like "IGNORANT" and "ARROGANT" and "DRIVEL"--how 'bout her anger, huh? And this was in reply to a TMS physician who take valuable time out of his busy day to formulate a thoughtful reply.
So, A how 'bout her anger? Or, have you chosen sides? |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 17:42:36
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TT. You are the one that asked me why I think you are stuck. So I replied. Don't be offended by my response.
Anger is not an emotion BTW. Anger is an idea of an emotion or a label if you want. It is called a secondary emotion. It is a protection mechanism and you are still repressing like crazy your emotions by being angry.
Emotions are a physical sensation in the body, TT. I think you may benefit from a bit more digging into the emotional side of TMS because I truly think you do not get it. |
Edited by - alix on 09/15/2014 18:06:04 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 19:58:53
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A, as an interlude between our internet pissing match, I'll bring Ace1's comments back to the top. It's much more important then anything you or I have to say. Please give me your comments on what he had to say and why it made mala so "defensive" since anger is NOT an emotion--you learn something new everyday, thanks!
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Ace1
USA
967 Posts
"Posted - 09/13/2014 : 09:21:55 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Hi I must comment on this so one can understand the concepts of tms. The first point mala, is why did you specifically develop such bad fibroids in the first place? This is the basic question. I believe that illness in general is related to the tms concept. This does not mean that someone should not have medical attention to help temporize the person until they are able to make bigger strides in their self improvement. I believe that real physical changes which are a result of chronic strain and even injury do start to take on the patterns of tms causing more symptoms when someone is strained then when they are not. I believe based on personal experience that if one is able to not do anything about the symptom but work more on the strain and conditioning, then that problem starts to heal. I do believe that there will be people that will work on this and fail. This is not to discourage but is based on the reality of the matter. Just because one fails in one own treatment of tms does not disprove that the original condition was indeed caused by tms. I failed for a long time until I started to get it right through trial and error and it is an extremely slow process. I wish you mala continued success and good health for the future."
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 21:40:32
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Why is Ace's comment so important in comparison to our exchange? Is it because he is a doctor?
I don't know why Mala got offended. I personally find Ace's post quite patronizing but it is just my opinion.
http://www.creducation.org/resources/anger_management/anger__a_secondary_emotion.html
Anger is often called a secondary emotion because we tend to resort to anger in order to protect ourselves from or cover up other vulnerable feelings. A primary feeling is what is felt immediately before we feel anger. We almost always feel something else first before we get angry.
We might first feel afraid, attacked, offended, disrespected, forced, trapped, or pressured. If any of these feelings are intense enough, we think of the emotion as anger. |
Edited by - alix on 09/15/2014 21:46:44 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2014 : 23:24:45
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
Why is Ace's comment so important in comparison to our exchange? Is it because he is a doctor?
I don't know why Mala got offended. I personally find Ace's post quite patronizing but it is just my opinion.
http://www.creducation.org/resources/anger_management/anger__a_secondary_emotion.html
Anger is often called a secondary emotion because we tend to resort to anger in order to protect ourselves from or cover up other vulnerable feelings. A primary feeling is what is felt immediately before we feel anger. We almost always feel something else first before we get angry.
We might first feel afraid, attacked, offended, disrespected, forced, trapped, or pressured. If any of these feelings are intense enough, we think of the emotion as anger.
Ace's comments are important because they are TMS knowledge on the deepest level. And they are what the OP misunderstood and was offended by. If you don't think anger is an emotion then you should re-read your Sarno, TMS is all about REPRESSED ANGER. I don't have any problem with expressing my anger when it's appropriate. If someone dumps on me, I'm dumping back on them. You found Ace's post patronizing, I found it informative, to each his own. He's a physician who deals with TMS professionally all day long. I will take his info over yours, since I have no idea what you do. You said I talk about myself all the time, well you don't reveal anything about yourself and I'm supposed to believe you--why? Where's your credentials? I only regurgetate what I've read in the Good Doctor's books, and that's what this forum is about. If you don't believe in Dr. Sarno's theory write your own book, it's easy to be a critic.
Here's a great interview with Dr. Sarno, it's very simple to understand and explains his theory without a bunch of psycho-babble mumbo-jumbo. He explains why it's good to read the books and gives some great stats on TMS:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478852 |
Edited by - tennis tom on 09/15/2014 23:25:48 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2014 : 00:02:34
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TT, I see Ace's view of TMS as pretty restrictive. His recommendation is to just slow down. He does not believe in the Sarno protection mechanism/intelligent pain strategy which I totally believe in.
I am much closer to Sarno than Ace. I just think that Sarno's "think psychological" is subject to widely conflicting interpretation.
I got stuck on that. It is Monte Hueftle, Abigail Steidley, and several others that showed me how to get passed that obstacle.
I also got stuck on the quest to find the perfect book or video. Tom, I am surprised that you do not see that as a pitfall. It is pretty evident.
And to answer your question, I do not have the slightest qualification in TMS theory. I am a graduate of ETH Zürich in Engineering.
Good night Tom. |
Edited by - alix on 09/16/2014 00:10:32 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2014 : 07:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
...I see Ace's view of TMS as pretty restrictive.
...His recommendation is to just slow down.
...I just think that Sarno's "think psychological" is subject to widely conflicting interpretation.
...I also got stuck on the quest to find the perfect book or video.
I find Ace's view to be expansive, including most anything being a TMS symptom, as Dr. Sarno has said, "big or small". It's a tautological argument, like which came first the chicken or the egg.
I interpret Ace1's argument to "slow down" to be the equivalent of being in the "NOW". This can be difficult if the surrounding environment, other wise know as the WORLD, won't cooperate.
After a certain while, you've read enough, seen enough and heard enough TMS materials to internalize the TMS KNOWLEDGE, no longer needing to quote verbatim, knowing it from rote. I have a number of TMS books that I've bought that I may never get to buying them as a courtesy to their creators, for having spilled their guts to write them.
When I read the Dr. Sarno interview :http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478852 it refreshed my memory of the simplicity of his TMS theory. If one reads that interview it may be enough for it to click if the "student is ready". Or the "student" may never be ready if the vicissitudes of their life are such that they will need the PROTECTION of TMS symptoms forever.
Reading a TMS book doesn't mean you aren't "cured", although being cured is not a very good term. You may successfully overcome a symptom but down the road another one might emerge due to life's circumstances combined with the HUMAN CONDITION.
It's like reading the Bible, people read a portion of the day and when finished, start over. As they age experiencing life, they see the words in a new light, taking on greater and new meanings. Personally, I feel reading any one of Dr. Sarno's books is sufficient to comprehend the theory. I'll buy used cheap copies of his first book "MIND OVER BACK PAIN", to hand out to people since it's so short and sweet.
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Choose yr TMS battles wisely
