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Schooner
Sweden
7 Posts |
 Posted - 11/14/2013 : 14:35:08
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Hi all,
I've got a question regarding the "all injuries heal concept". In TMS-theory, from what I've understood, all injuries heal after some time and long-lasting pain is due to underlying pschyology of TMS. I've have been troubled with RSI and foot pain for the last two years, and although I'm still in pain I can see and believe that TMS is the root cause of the symptoms. I got all the personality traits, got bullied as a child and I am a real worrier.
However.
After extensive yoga practise for a couple of months, starting one year ago, my hamstring started to hurt. It came gradually. Soon my (which I later learned the name of) my medius gluteus "snapped" and pain soon followed here aswell. I thought this was a "normal" injury and pursued physio. It did not resolve.
Today I saw a specialist in these sorta "injuries". Not certain that this was a good idea, but I did. He started off looking for tender points, found a few which did hurt, followed by ultrasound'ing these spots. The doc concluded that scar tissue had formed at at least two places (outer hamstring and at medius gluteus). He continued to explain (and show on the ultrasound-screen) that the new blood vessels had formed to nutriate this area during the healing process hadnt disapperad and were still there. accompanying these blood vessels, he explained, were nerves that got pinched when moving, as they werent supposed to be there in first place. He continued suggesting prolotherapy and attacking the scar tissues it with a golfball/tennisball and breaking it up with aggressive (all weight on elbow)-massage. According to him prolotherapy helps as it goes in and cuts off the blood to the specific blood vessel and thereafter the nerves disappear aswell.. or something like that.
For me it sounds reasonable, but it also shatters my belief in TMS, a belief that is so fragile. I do work with journaling, meditation etc. I tried to discuss the pschyosomatic concept with him, but he just smiled and shook his head, telling me that the mind surely can amplify pain but not cause it. ESPECIALLY not this.
So, do really all injuries heal correctly? Right now the aching hand and forearms, hamstring and outer buttock and my foot bothers me greatly. I can see the benefits of going through TMS-"treatment" anyway, but could scar tissue as described be TMS? |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2013 : 16:02:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Schooner
but he just smiled and shook his head, telling me that the mind surely can amplify pain but not cause it.
I don't understand most of those medical terms you wrote above, but I completely disagree with your doctor about the mind can not cause pain. Thousand and thousand of people have been cure of many painful symptoms using what doctor Sarno and other mind body expert taught. After years of suffering and the conventional medical establishment gave up on them.
You leaving work late at night walking toward your car, suddenly someone jumps out from behind the bushes and scream. What would happen to your body. Your heart beat at a thousand beat a minute, your blood rushing every where, your breathing became extremely fast and heavy, stress hormone flooded your blood stream, fight and flight respond instantly kicked in....
You're not sick, you are perfectly healthy just a few seconds ago, what have happened to your body?
DANGER, FEAR, that's what happened. Can you See how powerful your mind is. Can you see your mind can make all kind of changes to your body?
Now imagine the stress, the trauma is chronic or overwhelmed. Imagine the stress hormone continuously being release into your blood stream. Imagine your body's muscles always tighten, always getting ready for a fight... Over time it can produce all kind of symptoms.
That doctor is protecting his income, his profession so he has to say what he said. But only you can save yourself.
About scar tissue causing pain. I don't know if it can or can not. But let me tell you this, I came from a war torn country, I have seen thousand upon thousand of people who got their limbs blown up. Thousand More got operated on. People with "scar tissue" were everywhere and I couldn't remember anyone complain they were in pain because of their scar tissues. I really don't think scar tissues can cause pain, just like herniated disc can not cause back pain.
Our mind definitely can cause pain if we don't use it wisely.
------------------------
No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2013 : 11:08:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Schooner
...it sounds reasonable, but it also shatters my belief in TMS, a belief that is so fragile.
Is this guy a real doctor/physician/MD or some new agey therapist or chiro-quack-ter? From what I've heard of prolotherapy it's quackery. Instead of a sugar pill you get a dextrose (sugar) shot instead--pure placebo effect. Before you spend big money on treatments, spend $25 to buy Steven Ray Ozanich's book, "THE GREAT PAIN DECEPTION", to solidify your "fragile" belief in TMS. Read chapters 13, 14, 15 to answer many of your questions about "is it TMS?", docs, and "TMS How TO".
Disclaimer: This is just my personal opinion, I'm no doc, only a tennis player and don't even own a white-coat. I've been warned by a health professional who posts here once in a blue moon, that I should shut my pie-hole or be sued for mal-tennis practice--which reminds me I need to get out of here and practice my service ball toss and forehand slice approach. Good luck and hang onto your wallet.
==================================================
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod
=================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Dr. Sarno is now retired, if you call this number you will be referred to his associate Dr. Rashbaum.
"...there are so many things little and big that are tms, I wouldn't have time to write about all of them": Told to icelikeaninja by Dr. Sarno
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
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Edited by - tennis tom on 11/15/2013 11:12:22 |
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Birdie78
Germany
145 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2013 : 13:06:57
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Schooner, I was diagnosed with "scar tissue" in my buttocks (all glutes & piriformis) a few years ago. I was told that it must be broken up. Well, it was "broken" up which was one of the most painful things I ever experienced. The pain was so strong that I vomited after the physio did that to my buttocks. And, guess what, it did nothing for me! 2 years later the pain disappeared only to be replaced by a new pain location (sounds familiar?).
I have "RSI" too and probably there will be some very tight and knotted tissue due to oxigen deprivation (diagnosed as scar tissue). But I guess it's reversible. By butt isn't knotty and tensed any longer.
It's also unlikely that so many different area in ones body aren't able to heal. That's what I am telling myself over and over again. It's really not logical that I "injured" my elbows, my shoulder, my butt, my arms, my.......and that all these areas are unable to heal?!
My husband was really injured several times. He healed within a few weeks. Why does he have no pain due to scar tissue (and a shoulder dislocation is really, really painful)? He doesn't worry about weather he will heal or not or how long the pain lasts nor is he a perfectionist.
But I can totally relate to your experience. What the doctor showed and told you really sounds scary. That's why I avoid seeing doctors and physios if possible.
Kind regards from Germany sends Birdie |
Edited by - Birdie78 on 11/15/2013 15:01:16 |
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andy64tms
USA
589 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2013 : 16:44:44
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Hi Schooner, welcome to the TMS forum,
From your first paragraph you seem to have an understanding of how TMS works.One of the most difficult things we have to do is decide the difference between real and unreal physical issues, all areas of the medical industry are suspect. We need to get to the point when we realize the pain is real but there for psychological reasons.
So I went to Wikipedia for enlightenment on the words “proliferation therapy."
Here is the description:
Prolotherapy is also known as "proliferation therapy," "regenerative injection therapy, or "proliferative injection therapy". It involves injecting an otherwise non-pharmacological and non-active irritant solution into the body, generally in the region of tendons or ligaments for the purpose of strengthening weakened connective tissue and alleviating musculoskeletal pain. The precise mechanism or mechanisms of action for prolotherapy agents is currently unclear.
Some key words jump out at me:
Proliferation: means: “ To increase in number or amount quickly”. a convincing buzz word
Regenerative- Another convincing buzz word
Injection – One of the best placeboes out there
Non pharmacological – Sound like non- medical - could be water, or inert liquid
Non active- Verifies that it could indeed be water, and If its non active why are they using it?
And as for the final statement:"The precise mechanism or mechanisms of action for prolotherapy agents is currently unclear'. This is a blatant admission of the unknown!
Discalimer: I know that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, but its a start!
Good luck
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years, is almost gone.
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
Edited by - andy64tms on 11/15/2013 17:39:29 |
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Schooner
Sweden
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2014 : 08:35:58
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Thank you for your answers. Especially Birdes´, you are in a similiar situation as me. Balto & TennisTom: I have read SteveOs book several times. I am aware of and understand the concept fully.
However, as most things, the truth always lies in middle. As James Rainville states, (a medical doctor at New England Baptist Hospital); While TMS treatment works for some patients, Sarno mistakenly uses the TMS diagnosis for other patients who have real physical problems.
Therefore I have a question. But first, please leave the "TMS HAS WORKED FOR THOUSANDS OF PATIENTS, THEREFORE IT MUST BE TRUE!"-arguments outside this topic. There is a possibility (as there is for everything) that these 1000+'s of people did have pure pschycosomatic problems - but I know many that do and did not get better at all, including myself. Also, please leave out "IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS NO HOPE FOR YOU, YOU ARE DOOMED!" I do believe in the concept fully as I have also seen alot of people get better too. However, I also believe in a shade of grey. The mindbody is more complex then one can understand.
To summerize, I am looking for discussion here. Above all I would like someone to explain how the example below cant be partially true. It would mean alot to me. This forums is called TMShelp. Hopefully it can help me by explaining this. :)
Here we go;
Scar tissue on muscles formed due to extensive stretching is often accompanied with (not always of course) blood vessels and nerves. As the scar is formed cross-sectorial in/on the muscle, it sounds reasonable to me that when moving the individual suffers from some sort of discomfort - as it follows the same logic as the "blood withdrawal" that TMS builds upon ---> nerves getting temporarily contracted due to mechanical reason (blood withdrawal or a muscle contracting). When the muscle is in a rested position it does not hurt. The latter is true for me. A close friend of mine is a PT. She has seen this pattern in many of her patients, and most of them go on to full recovery with removal of the scar tissue.
My question is. How in the world can this be placebo, placebo & placebo - ONLY? It is so easy to stand on one side and dismiss the other. A explanation would be so much better, why does not scar tissue hurt?
Maybe a doc can answer this? Or someone insightful. Once again, I am looking for logic reasoning, not "you're not a BELIEBER!"-response.
Thank you all. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2014 : 09:28:49
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A simple explanation: scar tissue is a natural by-product of the human body healing itself. It seems reasonable that such a well designed machine would heal itself in such a way that does not cause structural defects that lead to pain.
Similarly, herniated discs are part of the natural process of providing shock absorption for the spine. It is reasonable to expect that the discs are designed in such a way so as to not cause lasting structural damage that causes chronic pain.
I'm sure a medical expert can produce a reasonable argument that justifies your skepticism. After all, they are trained to identify structural defects and physical causes of pain, and not to consider the possibility that symptoms can be caused by psychological factors.
Of course, there will be exceptions. Structural defects can be caused by disease or injury. Some scar tissue might form in a location that will lead to symptoms that may be healed by removal of the tissue. However, that is the exception rather than the rule. I choose to believe that the human body is a miraculous machine, and much of its advanced design is beyond our current comprehension. I believe that many of the "defects" seen with MRIs these days are not pathological, but simply an advanced visualization of the body doing what it was designed to do. |
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Schooner
Sweden
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2014 : 10:06:35
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Thank you Dave, exactly the sort of response I was hoping for. To continue, are there any studies on the subject that anyone know of?
Please continue to contribute with thoughts and insights. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2014 : 11:58:56
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These studies may be of interest to you:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1DVCJ_enUS411US411&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=scar%20tissue%20studies
==================================================
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod
=================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Dr. Sarno is now retired, if you call this number you will be referred to his associate Dr. Rashbaum.
"...there are so many things little and big that are tms, I wouldn't have time to write about all of them": Told to icelikeaninja by Dr. Sarno
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2014 : 09:10:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Schooner
Schooner:...However, as most things, the truth always lies in middle.
ME: What empirical evidence do you have for that? IMHO MEDIOCRITY is what lies in the middle. Geniuses like the Good Doctor are ignored in their life times until discovered by Ophrah or go to jail like Gallileo.
Schooner:...As James Rainville states, (a medical doctor at New England Baptist Hospital); While TMS treatment works for some patients, Sarno mistakenly uses the TMS diagnosis for other patients who have real physical problems.
ME: I've never heard of James Rainville a medical doctor in New Emgland. His statement sounds slanderous. What evidence do YOU have for this outrageous allegation besides hearsay?
Schooner:...But first, please leave the "TMS HAS WORKED FOR THOUSANDS OF PATIENTS, THEREFORE IT MUST BE TRUE!"-arguments outside this topic.
ME: Why??? What better evidence would you have???--Do you trust test-tubes more then people???
Schooner:...There is a possibility (as there is for everything) that these 1000+'s of people did have pure pschycosomatic problems - but I know many that do and did not get better at all, including myself.
ME:True, that's why Dr. Sarno carefully screens potential patients who he understands from his years of clinical experience will not be psychologically able to accept his TMS theory so as not to waste his and their time and money. Most of humanity NEED their TMS as a defense mechanism--a PROTECTOR as he has stated in his books.
Schooner:...Also, please leave out "IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS NO HOPE FOR YOU, YOU ARE DOOMED!" I do believe in the concept fully as I have also seen alot of people get better too. However, I also believe in a shade of grey. The mindbody is more complex then one can understand.
ME:No one here has ever said that, I challenge you to find that quote! Most here are exceedingly cautious offering advice, NO one comes here first for their pain, they've already been through the allopathic/medical/industrial/pharmical/complementary/voo-doo/snake-oyl solutions and come here after they have exhausted all of the above. The "mindbody is more complex then one can understand", that is the point, from your line of reasoning it sounds like you are still trying to understand it, rather then accepting, letting go and allowing it to take you with it.
Schooner:...It is so easy to stand on one side and dismiss the other. ...Maybe a doc can answer this? Or someone insightful.
ME:You get what you pay for in this life, doc's don't come cheap. This is a public message board, you're going to have to dig deep for the "insights"--maybe try MENSA
schooner:...Once again, I am looking for logic reasoning, not "you're not a BELIEBER!"-response.
[b]ME; [b] Show me the "BELIEBER" quote. I've never seen anyone say that to anyone here, usually it's the Sarno deniers who are the most vociferous. If it's TMS then it doesn't lend itself to "logical reasoning" as it's thought of in this day and age--maybe someday when there's a sea-change transformation on what constitutes medicine and doctoring.
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Edited by - tennis tom on 05/31/2014 09:21:53 |
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Schooner
Sweden
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2014 : 19:18:09
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Sighs. I had a feeling someone would get offended (or rather harshly dismiss the question and tell me "SARNO IS RIIIGHT!"). You just gave me the sorta answer I asked not to be given.
I have met with a mind body doc. I got screened before that. I understand TMS. But as for logic goes, I cant rule out the fact that there are clinical studies showing that people get better from chronic pain by removing scar tissue from the hurting muscle. From a TMS-perspective, that is placebo only. But did really all those people get placebo:ed? I wanna know if people live with known internal scars on overused or teared muscles, whom experienced years of chronic pain and cured by just going back to living carelessly and "vibrating with life". If I hear about others with this specific malady, I can go on with my life.
Tennis Tom. I have great respect for your contribution on this forum. You have helped alot of people. However, please respect my wish to let this thread focus on this specific topic. Dont let ego take over. If you dont, fine, I can only ask you.
As for belief, look up the last page of chapter 15 in SteveO:s book. "If you dont believe, you are forever lost". It is enough for me to understand that belief is key - therefor I need to understand this topic.
Thanks,
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2014 : 20:20:10
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Schooner, this is the TMS board, what are you expecting??? If you want a physician specifically to answer your question, I can recall about three or four of them at this board, you should search them out and PM them, they don't check in here with any regularity anymore accept for ace.
Have you done a "SEARCH" here??? I just put in the "exact words" "scar tissue" and came back with FOUR PAGES on your topic, some of which seemed to apply to your query--have you tried doing that???
Another suggestion, are you aware there is another TMS site, the TMS Wiki where you may also find help??? I suggest you re-post there also.
Maybe there's a language barrier or a TMS barrier, the premise of TMS is basic Freudian psychology: id, ego and super-ego, so how do you expect to keep people's egos out of this??? No offense, but your approach and comments about the Good Doctor invite and bait a defensive posture from those who reside at a board dedicated to Dr. Sarno. This is not a scientific body here and it shouldn't be expected to behave like one.
Hopefully others with your specific structural issue will reply to you. Have you tried to see if there is a "Scar Tissue" forum??? By now there should be a forum for everything.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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Schooner
Sweden
7 Posts |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2014 : 15:35:38
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Hello,
A scar is considered by the medical community to be able to cause pain. The thing that should prove to you that there is some other factor causing the pain is when and how it presents as symptoms in you. You will notice that in some cases there is very little pain or no pain at all. You could possibly be active at the time, yet this is still the case. You will also notice that the pain can be severe when doing relatively little, such as lying in bed to go to sleep. You may have pain all the time but it's intensity pattern will follow what I have described. If scar caused pain by wrapping around nerves or bc nerves were cut or what ever it may be, the pattern described would not fit at all. You should be perfect with complete immobilization and in severe pain the more and more you do. It should not be bad before going to sleep. You will come to recognize conditioned situations and these explain the missing factor involved in the production of pain. There is no doubt that you body does use previous areas of injury at sites where the TMS can hold on to. If you didn't have the scar, I'm sure your body would use other area to manifest pain. I'm not going to lie to you, the process of reversing TMS in severe cases is VERY difficult. I'm not sure what percent of the population would be determined enough to be able to reverse it. I would guess that thus number is low. I hope this helps |
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Schooner
Sweden
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2014 : 05:47:59
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Thank you Ace and Back2it. Your answers are truly helpful. I see TMS from a slightly different perspective with the anxiety/AOS approach thanks to you. Personally, it makes more sense then the Freudian basis, although the latter is somewhat easier to grasp and understand as a concept.
The recommendation to read Hillbillys success-story was (thx PMer) also something that increased and matched by view and understanding of the nature of TMS. I can see whats needs to be done and I can build a plan towards the last 40-50% of my recovery thanks to that.
For the record, I also came across the thread called "When did TMS become a religion?" which matches my view of some aspects of this forum and a few of its members. Remember that the forum is called tmsHELP. Help can come in many ways if you suffer TMS symptoms, not only by praising the Go(o)d-doc.
Once again, thank you for the contributing answers of my inquiry. |
Edited by - Schooner on 06/03/2014 02:21:35 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2014 : 08:51:41
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Oh, don't mention it schnorrer, it was a pleasure doing business with you, the bill's in the mail, I gave you my TMClub discount. I'm off to my TMS church for morning mass.
Cheers,
tt |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2014 : 11:45:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Schooner
...I cant rule out the fact that there are clinical studies showing that people get better from chronic pain by removing scar tissue from the hurting muscle.
There will always be clinical studies showing evidence to back up theories about the causes of pain. Most of those theories will be centered on structural causes for obvious reasons. There is no way to prove that the brain can manufacture symptoms in response to psychological factors.
I find it interesting that the drugs approved for treating fibromyalgia are anti-depressants. Yet, the drug companies are content to say they do not know why they work on chronic pain, despite the clinical studies that, if painted a certain way, could make the claim that the pain has its origin in the chemical changes in the brain that are associated with psychological disorders. Why haven't they made the leap? The simple answer: economics.
If you allow clinical studies to raise doubt in your mind about the psychological nature of your symptoms, you are opening the door for the TMS process to seize the opportunity. As long as you believe scar tissue is causing your pain, that pain is more likely to be perpetuated. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2014 : 16:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Schooner
For the record, I also came across the thread called "When did TMS become a religion?" which matches my view of some aspects of this forum and a few of its members. Remember that the forum is called tmsHELP. Help can come in many ways if you suffer TMS symptoms, not only by praising the Go(o)d-doc.
Any "members" in particular???--like ME maybe??? YES, it's called the TMSHelp Forum--named after the Good Doctor Sarno's theory, who MOST who come here, are attempting to understand, so as to rid themselves of chronic pain. I've been here quite a while and no one I've seen treats it as a religion--but, belief in the theory is a key to getting 100% better, sort of similar to believing the earth is round and not flat. A few, (I won't mention any names), freak out at the mere mention of the words "faith" or "belief" because of their anathema to the Judeo/Christian ethic. Buddhism, animism, tree hugging and voo-doo are cool though. It's not about genuflecting to the Good Doctor, but about showing a modicum of RESPECT for a man who has dedicated his life to TRUE HEALING, and been ostracized by his peers. Hopefully, he will be given the Noble prize while he is still alive. The OP is in Sweden where I believe they pass them out, maybe he can help with that, if Al Gore got one for his invention of the inter-webs, surely the Good Doctor is deserving of one too.
tt/lsmft |
Edited by - tennis tom on 06/05/2014 08:44:34 |
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Aussie
Australia
87 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2014 : 03:21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Schooner
Thank you for your answers. Especially Birdes´, you are in a similiar situation as me. Balto & TennisTom: I have read SteveOs book several times. I am aware of and understand the concept fully.
However, as most things, the truth always lies in middle. As James Rainville states, (a medical doctor at New England Baptist Hospital); While TMS treatment works for some patients, Sarno mistakenly uses the TMS diagnosis for other patients who have real physical problems.
Therefore I have a question. But first, please leave the "TMS HAS WORKED FOR THOUSANDS OF PATIENTS, THEREFORE IT MUST BE TRUE!"-arguments outside this topic. There is a possibility (as there is for everything) that these 1000+'s of people did have pure pschycosomatic problems - but I know many that do and did not get better at all, including myself. Also, please leave out "IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS NO HOPE FOR YOU, YOU ARE DOOMED!" I do believe in the concept fully as I have also seen alot of people get better too. However, I also believe in a shade of grey. The mindbody is more complex then one can understand.
To summerize, I am looking for discussion here. Above all I would like someone to explain how the example below cant be partially true. It would mean alot to me. This forums is called TMShelp. Hopefully it can help me by explaining this. :)
Here we go;
Scar tissue on muscles formed due to extensive stretching is often accompanied with (not always of course) blood vessels and nerves. As the scar is formed cross-sectorial in/on the muscle, it sounds reasonable to me that when moving the individual suffers from some sort of discomfort - as it follows the same logic as the "blood withdrawal" that TMS builds upon ---> nerves getting temporarily contracted due to mechanical reason (blood withdrawal or a muscle contracting). When the muscle is in a rested position it does not hurt. The latter is true for me. A close friend of mine is a PT. She has seen this pattern in many of her patients, and most of them go on to full recovery with removal of the scar tissue.
My question is. How in the world can this be placebo, placebo & placebo - ONLY? It is so easy to stand on one side and dismiss the other. A explanation would be so much better, why does not scar tissue hurt?
Maybe a doc can answer this? Or someone insightful. Once again, I am looking for logic reasoning, not "you're not a BELIEBER!"-response.
Thank you all.
Hi Schooner,
In the above post you claim Sarno has mistakenly diagnosed people with Tms when they had a structural issue?
I searched James Rainville who if anything seems to agree most back pain has a mind body component.
I've read much on Tms but am yet to find any legitimate case of Sarno mistakenly diagnosing Tms when a purely physical problem was the issue. I have read of another Tms doctor missing a serious and rare vitamin d deficiency that resulted in major spine problems but never with Sarno.
Can you provide any info on this or is that comment more of an assumption?
Thanks for your time. |
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Schooner
Sweden
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2014 : 13:39:23
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Dear Aussie,
thank you for your question. And your kind and polite way of asking. I wrote that post rather fast so a few words should probably be changed for the context to be what I exactly meant. I did not know that it would get as dissected as it has been :). Also, english isnt my first language as you probably understand by my writing.
Furthermore, I do not intend to claim that I myself know anything at all. However, I personally believe that there is a grey scale in most(..!) things. I think I found that quote in this article, as a critic to the main message. You need to sign up though;
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-57116120.html
Also, there is a interesting video regarding back pain where James Rainville discusses back pain. I chose to examplify with him because he has a sound, reasonable and likeable approach to treating the human back + he sees a mindbody connection. However, he also discusses stretches etc. He may be wrong and Sarno is 100% right. I dont know. I wish by all my heart that the Good Doc is correct. So many people have gotten rid of their pain by his work. Maybe I will know myself in a few years.
Since you asked, he also has a good talk about studies and back pain here. He does not mention the id, ego and superego though.
http://professionaled.nebh.org/evaluation-and-conservative-treatment-of-back-and-spine-pain-part-1/item/3/item/3
Hope that answer is good enough - cant really provide you with more, I'm sorry.
And to TennisTom. I was gonna let this slip (or repress it or w/e) but no. You should really be ashamed of yourself and you crossed the line when you came up with Schnorrer. Firstly, I got bullied for name calling back when I was a kid and young teenager. (Thats also when my first shoulder pain was kicking in btw) Secondly, my family on my mothers side is jewish - and Schnorrer as a term was and is strongly connected to the 1940s. Be really careful. Thirdly, it is called TMSHELP. Who are you to judge which of the hundreds of questions asked are "ok" and which are not?
I am signing off this forum now after my short visit - a litte bit disgusted.
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Edited by - Schooner on 06/05/2014 13:41:53 |
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Topic : Scar tissues
