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NextAdventure
USA
57 Posts |
 Posted - 09/02/2013 : 07:19:38
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My wife was prescribed magnesium for muscle cramps and in three days it was a miracle and they are gone.
I researched it and it looked like God's gift to anyone with muscle pain. Helps with muscle pain, anxiety, insomnia and much more.
So I started out tiny and last two nights took 125mg before bed. First night could hardly sleep. Last night ZERO sleep and felt weird all night - muscle pain actually worse.
Anyone else had a reaction to magnesium supplements??
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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JaxCat
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2013 : 10:44:58
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Sounds like a very odd reaction to the Magnesium. Magnesium comes in many forms and they are all not equal. Most MD's order Mag Oxide which is cheap and has few side effect. The problem is that it is not well absorbed. I've taken mag citrate in the past, it has a high bio availability but can cause a laxative effect if you take too much. In high doses it's used as a colon clean. There is lot of info out there saying that many Americans are somewhat deficient in magnesium due to our highly processed diet and over farmed land. I've also read that the serum magnesium level (the typical mag blood test) is not a very reliable indicator of hypomagnesium. Often people are deficient and will have normal serum mag level. By the time the serum level is low the cellular level is really tanked.
I've been taking mag off and on for the past couple years. I don't notice much difference when it take it or not. Did you take the magnesium with food or on an empty stomach? Also what form of mag are you taking?
Magnesium is also effective for calming the nervous system. |
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Dr. Zafirides
189 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2013 : 10:04:59
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quote:
Magnesium is also effective for calming the nervous system.
I have to say I have had many patients over the years tell me that the addition of magnesium supplements helped to reduce their anxiety.
I have been remiss in researching this further. Great Discussion.
-Dr. Z |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2013 : 10:26:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Zafirides
I have to say I have had many patients over the years tell me that the addition of magnesium supplements helped to reduce their anxiety.
-Dr. Z
Could this be a placebo effect? |
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Dr. Zafirides
189 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2013 : 12:07:30
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[/quote]
Could this be a placebo effect?
[/quote]
Absolutely. Excellent point.
But the way I see things Tom, so can exercise, meditation, medications I prescribe or the therapy I do - including TMS treatment.
I am not trying to be a relativist or ascribe to the post-modernist philosophy, but I just find it freeing to always challenge the validity of what I do.
It keeps me curious and hungry to learn more.
:)
Dr. Z
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NextAdventure
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2013 : 12:38:17
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About 12% of the US population has a genetic aberration in their CP450 and other detox pathways. I was tested by three pharmacogenetic labs and found that I was in that 12%.
We do not metabolize or process drugs, chemicals and anything foreign in the body the way normal people do. We also tend to have paradoxical reactions.
I posted this question to see if any members here are also gene altered metabolizers....if so it can cause unusual physical manifestations and there is some research that we can have hyperactive pain responses |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2013 : 13:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Zafirides
But the way I see things Tom, so can exercise, meditation, medications I prescribe or the therapy I do - including TMS treatment.
I am not trying to be a relativist or ascribe to the post-modernist philosophy, but I just find it freeing to always challenge the validity of what I do.
It keeps me curious and hungry to learn more.
:)
Dr. Z
Thanks for the reply Dr. Z, I'm with you. As I see it, generally "problems" are 80% TMS and 20% structural/real, that allopathic medicine should be consulted for. The percentages are in our favor that things are usually TMS. Apparently the OP has tested and fallen into that small category where he responds negatively to magnesium supplements.
In my old pre-TMS days, I would have been running out to Walgreens to pick up a bottle of magnesium and give it a whirl. Now, I'm not so quick to fall for the snake-oil promises. After reading the NIH info about Magnesium, the symptoms and disclaimers sound about the same as for most every other malady. But, maybe I'll try a bottle just for grins. What's another $10 for some suppplements, although real vitamin difficientcies are a rarity? Eating almonds sounds better but are more fattening .
Cheers,
tt |
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NextAdventure
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2013 : 20:08:26
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Tom
I would not have believed it were it not happening to my wife. Seven years of attacks that would leave her on the bathroom floor with such muscle spasms she would vomit and have diarrhea. Some days she would be in bed all day with a heating pad.
My wife is an athlete and extremely strong. She grew up in a wonderful family and unlike me is a picture of emotional and physical health. Always positive!!
She saw no less than 7 doctors over the years. She was scoped and scanned everywhere. She read and tried the TMS treatments.
I was thinking back on my pre-med education and recalled that in the ER they give a huge bolus of magnesium for heart problems, seizures and certain poisonings...and constipation.
I reasoned that seizures are an extreme electrical aberration in the CNS, the same place TMS originates...but to a lesser degree.
My wife's MG blood work was perfect. She started on 50 mg of magnesium citrate on a Friday and by Monday she had not had the attacks that usually came 3 to 5 times a week.
It has now been 14 weeks and she has only had two very minor event lasting less than 30 minutes..
Understand that neither of us believe in supplements - we have eaten whole foods for over 40 years and know all vitamins in stores are in reality synthetic chemicals.
In this case she has her life back and we are grateful.
So I thought maybe it would help my muscle pain...my system would not tolerate it so I have to use the TMS and other methods |
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Dr. Zafirides
189 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2013 : 21:57:22
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There is also research showing some individuals have a genetic deficiency for the enzymes that break down folic acid in to the forms that can cross the blood-brain barrier.
This deficiency of folic acid results in changes in the brain that predispose one to depression. That is why Deplin (l-methylfolate) has gotten the approval as an add-on treatment.
I was as skeptical as anyone at first, but l-methylfolate has helped so many of my patients over the last 2-3 years. I interviewed Dr. Vlad Maletic, one of our nation's top neuroscientists, about folic acid and depression back in March (Episode 66):
http://www.thehealthymind.com/2013/03/06/the-biology-of-depression-dr-vladimir-maletic-interview/
This podcast episode has been one of the most popular episodes to date. Just FYI
-Dr. Z |
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EileenTM
92 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2013 : 23:03:55
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Yes, I have the same enzyme deficiency. No enzyme 2D6. It is a major enzyme when it comes to clearing things out of your system. It is an inherited condition.
i was tested twice. I take nothing.
As to cramps. I have had them from time to time. However the other night I had a horrible one. Once i reviewed in my mind what might be causing it, it disappeared. |
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sue1012
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2013 : 08:41:27
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| N/A, I also am a poor metabolizer..... have been tested etc. I have paradoxical reactions to magnesium. I can't sleep when I take it and get spun up. Same with Benadryl and many other things. I am very low in rbc mag, so it really is unfortunate. That 2d6 deficiency has been a real curse for my health. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2013 : 08:57:11
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| So how does one get tested for magnesium and the need for folic acid supplements??? Do you need to ask your doc for specific lab tests? I just had some routine blood tests that came back normal, would deficiencies in these area show up in your normal lab work for check-ups? These supplements I assume are easily available OTC, I may run down to Walgeens or Safeway and pick some up just to cover my bases. |
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EileenTM
92 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2013 : 14:56:23
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Yes, the 2d6 deficiency has been a real curse for me as well.
I also have the paradoxical reactions. Took some flaxseed oil once and went into hyperdrive.
That makes 3 of us here who have this deficiency. As you are probably know awareness for this is fairly recent, within the past 10 years
Do any of you know of a support group online or other for poor metabolizers?
I find even the doctors don't know that much.
My doctor says more information should be available in the next 10 years.
She has one other patient who has it.
I always thought I was so boringly normal...
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sue1012
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2013 : 08:35:51
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| Eileen, I don't know of any support groups. I think most people don't even know they have the deficiency, other than to just know that they are sensitive to meds. I only found out about 5 years ago, thanks to a very progressive NP who tested me after I had almost psychotic reactions to sleep meds and antidepressants (first time I had ever tried prescription meds). I just knew my body wasn't processing them properly. MOST doctors I've seen are not familiar with it, which astounds me. In the future, everyone will know their genetics and meds will be dispensed accordingly. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2013 : 09:07:18
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My old, retired doctor once told me that chronic stress, strong negative emotions, shock and trauma... can trigger gene mutation or activate genes which will make changes inside our body and create "symptoms". He said it is not the gene, it is the stress and chronic negative emotions that cause cancer, diabetes, heart disease,... all kind of illnesses. (he also said power of suggestion or expectation could also have the same effect)
I wonder of your enzyme deficiency or your poor metabolize is the result of tms/anxiety or not. I would strongly suspect that is the case.
------------------------
No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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EileenTM
92 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2013 : 16:02:41
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Well Balto, I am afraid this one is real and it is a congenital condition.
Enzyme 2d6 is critical for metabolizing many types of medications.
And I have 2 inactive forms of the alleles. You inherit one copy from each parent. There are about 8 -10 alleles for this gene. In fact some people have alleles that are ultra fast and these are the people for whom pain meds wear off really fast.
This gene does not change in that regard. Sort of like blue eyes or brown. If you have 2 of the inactive forms, your body cannot make the enzyme.
This may also explain why there are so many deaths from properly prescribed medications.
For some of us, a "normal" dose results in an overdose.
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Dr. Zafirides
189 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2013 : 19:05:47
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In the future, everyone will know their genetics and meds will be dispensed accordingly.
FUTURE is the operative word here. The genetic tests are available, but the clinical relevance is still questionable. It provides very basic guidance. I doubt genetic tests will be able to unequivocally guarantee response to meds. It's too complicated, especially with the epigenetic changes that can affect the DNA.
Even the genetic testing we do today is too equivocal for my taste (and my patients' money). All companies state that just because a certain genetic profile suggests certain meds are more tolerable, no testing company (to my awareness at this point) guarantees the results of their tests.
It is far too crude for me as it relates to choosing meds. Obtaining a poor metabolizer at cyp450 though could be worthwhile.
From an economic perspective, I think the tests are still in their infancy to adopt them as standard of care.
Dr. Z |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
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NextAdventure
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2013 : 19:30:43
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Eileen
I would love to speak with you and compare notes.
I was a lab rat with the original work on these tests at Johns Hopkins and University of Oregon Health Sciences.
I have several genetic aberrations that may be attributable to my Native American ancestry. We know that certain cultures are more prone to chemical sensitivity and adverse genetic processing. I am paradoxical to anything effecting the central nervous system, Benzos, cold medications, opioids and more all wire me up. My window of therapeutic response is extremely low. I can take 1/20th of a low dose and have a therapeutic effect – normal doses could kill me in an emergency situation.
I have this info in the ICE of my cell phone for emergency responders.
We can not alter the generic CP450 and other alleles but we also know that stress makes the blood brain barrier more permeable. Stress and anxiety also makes the amygdala more reactive to threat and symptoms caused by chemical reactions are responded to as threats and the cycle grows.
When you have this genetic aberration along with an adverse childhood that permanently alters the GABA/Glutamate balance and the hippocampus feedback loops and add real time stress you have a recipe for a hormonal/biochemical/electrical storm...and probably TMS.
Many insurance companies now pay for pharmacogenetic testibg if you have ever had a negative reaction to drugs. |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2013 : 23:53:05
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I take epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) in every bath and I take a bath a day (what can I say - I was born in England, where everyone takes baths, and now I live in USA, where everyone showers, so I do both every day!).
I do find that taking magnesium this way through the skin is quite effective for relaxation and also for owies.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
Edited by - Wavy Soul on 09/15/2013 23:54:13 |
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Magnesium & Pain
