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gailnyc
USA
80 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2013 : 18:44:56
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(forgive the crosspost)
The pain and sensitivity in my right foot has been getting better and better, though very slowly, over the last few months. Although I accept the TMS diagnosis 100% on a conscious level, I wonder if the pain is not decreasing more quickly because subconsciously I still have doubts.
I think the one major thing that leaves room for doubt is that my toes actually physically LOOK different. My second and third toes have moved apart slightly so there is a larger space than usual between them when I'm standing. I can also feel them doing something weird sometimes when I walk--it's hard to tell what, since I have my shoes on. I don't really have pain in them anymore but I do suspect that the muscles may be either tense or weak due to TMS.
I asked Dr. Rashbaum about this today, and unfortunately he mentioned sending me to a foot and ankle orthopedist to get it checked out. I was really upset--this was not the response that I wanted. I mentioned to him that Dr. Alexander says in his book that muscle tension can actually make bones move. Dr. Rashbaum said that Dr. Alexander is not an M.D. (I thought that was a bit rude, as he and Dr. Sarno are not psychiatrists and yet they deal with people's psyches all the time!) But then he did say that he had seen people with "temporary" scoliosis, whose bones had been moved by muscle tension, which was resolved using TMS treatment. So I was heartened by that. However he did admit he'd never seen toes that had moved.
I have searched on this forum and on tmshelp for "moving toes," to no avail. I don't expect anyone on here to have this symptom, but I would love to hear from people that actual physical abnormalities that you can see have turned out to be TMS. (You can't see pain!) I also have "hyper mobile" feet and I am actually able to move my toes so that the spacing is more normal. But on their own they don't look normal.
Any help or support will be greatly appreciated. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 19:50:03
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| I actually think if tms has been present in an area for sometime, it actually causes accelerated degeneration. I think tms treatment somehow helps heal that area or stabilize it enough that it is not painful anymore. I'm not sure if the degeneration can be reversed but at least it won't be painful anymore. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 10:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by gailnyc
...Although I accept the TMS diagnosis 100% on a conscious level, I wonder if the pain is not decreasing more quickly because subconsciously I still have doubts.
"
...I think the one major thing that leaves room for doubt is that my toes actually physically LOOK different. My second and third toes have moved apart slightly so there is a larger space than usual between them when I'm standing.
...I asked Dr. Rashbaum about this today, and unfortunately he mentioned sending me to a foot and ankle orthopedist to get it checked out. I was really upset--this was not the response that I wanted.
...I mentioned to him that Dr. Alexander says in his book that muscle tension can actually make bones move. Dr. Rashbaum said that Dr. Alexander is not an M.D. (I thought that was a bit rude, as he and Dr. Sarno are not psychiatrists and yet they deal with people's psyches all the time!)
...I have searched on this forum and on tmshelp for "moving toes," to no avail.
...I also have "hyper mobile" feet and I am actually able to move my toes so that the spacing is more normal. But on their own they don't look normal.
Any help or support will be greatly appreciated.
GNYC,
"Moving toes"--well that's a new one! I've never seen them mentioned at the Forum before--but that's not so unusual, the TMS gremlin is a clever sucker and can come up with an infinite "symptom du' jour", keeping us on our TMS toes--sorry about that, the pun was was completely unintentional, must have been a Freudian slip.
What's interesting to me is, in true TMS fashion, the gremlin has you distracting obsessively measuring the distance between your toes--that's the longest distance away from the brain that is possible, you may have set a TMS symptom distance record. It demonstrates how efficiently the polyneuropeptides can move about the neuro-muscular system.
The only time I've ever been aware of the distance between my toes is in yoga class when the teacher asks us to spread the toes to create a better balanced foundation for the asanas. I learned the toes could be brought under conscious control, I had never given it any thought or importance prior. Maybe it's more a female concern with open toe shoes and all, we've had a lot of forum talk in the past about the "tragedy" of not being able to wear high heals.
Also interesting to me from your post is that you don't seem to put much confidence in your doctor and appear angry over his advice. He is doing his due diligence on your behalf--Step #1 in TMS is to eliminate structural causes. By sending you to a specialist that's exactly what he is doing. I wouldn't take his comments as being rude, doctors are busy and direct to the point, they don't have much time to *****-foot around--sorry for a bad pun again--the waiting room is backed up and generally, these days, I find doctors to be among the most unhappy people, with their status and powers being taken away and the high costs of mal-practice insurance.
Your having 100% confidence in the TMS dx on a conscious level is a BIG positive! Now you need to wait for your subconscious to catch-up, and accept it's TMS on a cellular level. It's like Dr. Sarno's Edna St. Vincent Millay quote about "The heart is slow to learn what the quick brain sees at every turn," or something like that.
G'luck twinkle toes!
tt/lsmft
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
Edited by - tennis tom on 04/30/2013 14:52:37 |
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alangordon
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 15:04:44
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It's also possible that the space between your toes hasn't moved. One manifestation of TMS is body dysmorphic disorder, where perception changes where there have been no physical changes (i.e. seeing oneself as heavier than one is, seeing one's face get redder or one's hair thinning when it's actually staying the same.)
I don't mean to invalidate you fears, but unless you've actually measured it, or Dr. Rashbaum noticed the increase, you might want to question your perception. After all, the brain controls what the eyes see.
Alan |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 16:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by gailnyc
I asked Dr. Rashbaum about this today, and unfortunately he mentioned sending me to a foot and ankle orthopedist to get it checked out. I was really upset--this was not the response that I wanted.
Why not?
It is imperative to have all symptoms thoroughly checked out before committing to treating those symptoms as TMS.
First, you must rule out a serious disease or structural problem, even if it is unlikely.
Second, if that checkup does not reveal any serious issue, it will solidify your faith in the TMS diagnosis. |
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gailnyc
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2013 : 15:48:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
Originally posted by gailnyc
I asked Dr. Rashbaum about this today, and unfortunately he mentioned sending me to a foot and ankle orthopedist to get it checked out. I was really upset--this was not the response that I wanted.
Why not?
It is imperative to have all symptoms thoroughly checked out before committing to treating those symptoms as TMS.
First, you must rule out a serious disease or structural problem, even if it is unlikely.
Second, if that checkup does not reveal any serious issue, it will solidify your faith in the TMS diagnosis.
Well, I've already been checked out by five other doctors, had x-rays, mri's, bone scans, and nerve tests done. So I really don't think it's anything structural. I think Tom and Alan are right.
There was just something about the doctor's manner that irked me. But as someone on the tmswiki forum said, he wouldn't be treating me if I didn't have TMS. He's just there to provide the diagnosis. The rest is up to me. |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2013 : 19:53:06
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Hi gailnyc, You asked if anyone actually had physical symptoms that turned out to be TMS. I did. I have some scoliosis and osteoporosis, degenerative disk disease, one other "osis" that I can't spell or pronounce. etc. However, this has never kept me from doing things that I wanted to do. About 7 years ago, I started to have terrible back pain. These 2 conditions usually are not painful, but some doctors will tell you that they can be in some people. For at least 5 years, I thought the pain was structural, but I stayed away from doctors on the advice of my husband, who is a retired doctor - he was the Chief of Urology at a large University Hospital. My husband told me that there is no good news about running to doctors to treat these conditions because you are likely to be further damaged. He always thought that my back pain was psychosomatic. I did get checked out for serious conditions. My freedom from pain now is proof that my pain was not caused by my structural issues. It is entirely possible to have structural issues that are not the cause of your pain. For so long, I had doubts that I had TMS. Then I read Dr. Hanscom's book, "Back in Control". After that I believed in TMS 100%.
You really have to be careful about constant running to doctors because, sooner or later, you will get a big NOCEBO from a doctor and that will put you firmly back on the TMS treadmill of pain, fear and doubt. Most doctors act knowledgeable, but often are anything but. In fact, when a doctor tells me something that doesn't sound right, I ask my husband. He often tells me that the doctor does not have any idea what he/she is talking about. I recently read somewhere that it is now estimated that as much as 95% of doctor visits are probably the result of stress/mental issues. Certainly get checked out, but don't let a doctor drop a load of bull**** on you. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 12:43:59
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When you have pain, your muscles around the painful area automatically contract as a protection so it is not surprising that you see changes. Every pain doctor I have seen agrees with that.
Regarding Dr.Rashbaum, I was the one that warned you on the potential pitfall of seeing a TMS doctor. That was based on my own negative experience.
There is very little Dr.Rashbaum can do really. There is no test for TMS. He can only offer you reassurance and if you have bad vibes then it is over. I think you really need to revisit your strategy. Maybe you would be much better off seeing a psychologist that offers some of the depth therapies we have been discussing here. |
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gailnyc
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 14:43:46
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
Hi gailnyc, You asked if anyone actually had physical symptoms that turned out to be TMS. I did. I have some scoliosis and osteoporosis, degenerative disk disease, one other "osis" that I can't spell or pronounce. etc. However, this has never kept me from doing things that I wanted to do.
You know, after I posted that I thought all about the physical changes people have had--I don't know why I was putting my toes in another category! Thanks for the reminder!
quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
About 7 years ago, I started to have terrible back pain. These 2 conditions usually are not painful, but some doctors will tell you that they can be in some people. For at least 5 years, I thought the pain was structural, but I stayed away from doctors on the advice of my husband, who is a retired doctor - he was the Chief of Urology at a large University Hospital. My husband told me that there is no good news about running to doctors to treat these conditions because you are likely to be further damaged. He always thought that my back pain was psychosomatic. I did get checked out for serious conditions. My freedom from pain now is proof that my pain was not caused by my structural issues. It is entirely possible to have structural issues that are not the cause of your pain. For so long, I had doubts that I had TMS. Then I read Dr. Hanscom's book, "Back in Control". After that I believed in TMS 100%.
You really have to be careful about constant running to doctors because, sooner or later, you will get a big NOCEBO from a doctor and that will put you firmly back on the TMS treadmill of pain, fear and doubt. Most doctors act knowledgeable, but often are anything but. In fact, when a doctor tells me something that doesn't sound right, I ask my husband. He often tells me that the doctor does not have any idea what he/she is talking about. I recently read somewhere that it is now estimated that as much as 95% of doctor visits are probably the result of stress/mental issues. Certainly get checked out, but don't let a doctor drop a load of bull**** on you.
You are absolutely right about this. I think this is a big stumbling block for me, because for a really long time I have trusted doctors to take care of me. This requires a major paradigm shift on my part--I need to learn to take better care of myself. |
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gailnyc
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 14:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
When you have pain, your muscles around the painful area automatically contract as a protection so it is not surprising that you see changes. Every pain doctor I have seen agrees with that.
Thank you--that makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by alix
Regarding Dr.Rashbaum, I was the one that warned you on the potential pitfall of seeing a TMS doctor. That was based on my own negative experience.
There is very little Dr.Rashbaum can do really. There is no test for TMS. He can only offer you reassurance and if you have bad vibes then it is over. I think you really need to revisit your strategy. Maybe you would be much better off seeing a psychologist that offers some of the depth therapies we have been discussing here.
Yes, I remember your warning. At least Dr. Rashbaum did give me a TMS diagnosis.
I am seeing a therapist. She was actually the first one to suggest my pain might be psychosomatic. She is totally on board with the TMS and has actually been a real blessing to me through all of this. I feel lucky to have her. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 15:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
There is no test for TMS.
Is the palpation test of the "tender spots" no longer a marker for TMS? |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 16:32:35
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tennis tom, good question. I was fully expecting Dr.Schechter to test me for tender points but he did not. In recent times, I cannot recall anybody that has been tested for tender points.
gailnyc, that's great that you have a plan and can move forward. |
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njoy
Canada
188 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 19:52:04
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Hi, there. I had something similar and managed to fix it. What happened is that I started having severe cramping in my feet, legs and fingers. It was excruciating! I tried many remedies such as taking extra calcium and magnesium, etc. All tended to help for awhile but then back would come the symptoms. Sometimes they would be almost overwhelming. Especially when I was already under a lot of stress. Of course.
After I started investigating tms it occurred to me that maybe these cramps were an equivalent. Sure enough. They faded away. Once in awhile, they reappear but I know them and send them on their way.
I don't know if you are doing something similar. I know my cramps distorted my toes, etc. and they looked pale and twisted. It was so painful that I didn't bother worrying about that, though. Maybe mild cramping could do the same thing w/o all the pain drama.
Wow, are we (humans) ever a strange lot, huh? I'm so glad others have said "lose the doctors" here. I know that can be dangerous but, really, so can going to them -- more so, in my experience. But then I can barely get a doc to look at me because I'm old and I won't take drugs unless absolutely necessary. Most of them hate that.
In the US, you can't really blame doctors for erring on the over cautious side. If they miss a diagnosis, they can be sued for outrageous amounts of money. In Canada, we can't do that. Law suits are possible, of course, but amounts are capped (not sure of the details) at a modest level so most people don't bother. No system is perfect, of course, and this means incompetent doctors are not often driven out of business. In fact, there are two docs in my small town (one md and one naturopath) who are refugees from lawsuits in the USA! I know that thanks to the Internet.
I had one doc here who constantly got my prescriptions wrong. Like every single time, the pharmacist would sigh loudly and phone the doc for clarification, then correct the prescription. He finally left and went to South Africa. Lucky them.
*****
"It's worth considering that tms is not a treatment but rather an unfolding of the self, and a way of living as an emotionally aware and engaged soul." Plum |
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gailnyc
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2013 : 14:15:29
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Njoy, that cramping sounds very painful! My pain consists mainly of top-of-foot sensitivity--it's like the volume on my skin has been turned way up. this pain concerned me so much that for a long time I didn't really care about my toe weirdness. It's only since the pain has let up a bit that I've been noticing my toes. Of course, just another distraction! I really don't care what my toes look like as long as I can walk.
Regarding "tender spots": this was actually another problem I had with Dr. Rashbaum. He didn't do a tender spot exam with me during my first visit. At my second visit, he was all set up to give me his first lecture, when I brought up my questions, one of which was, can you examine me for tender spots? I mean, it's mentioned in ALL the books. Why didn't he do it the first time? Who knows. He thought he did, but then when he checked his computer screen I could see he saw he didn't. He seemed frustrated at this point, and told me we wouldn't have time for the lecture after all. Then he did the exam (he called in an associate to watch; I'm not sure why). I found his communication skills to be not the best. I also felt severely restricted by time. He gives you 45 minutes for the first exam, then 25 minutes for subsequent exams. There is no flexibility. He seemed annoyed at my questions, like I was wasting his time. It seems to me that a doctor who treats TMS patients would be a bit more patient with anxiousness, but he just doesn't seem to be.
Also, you know how in all his books Dr. Sarno talks about how he asks his patients questions about their personality, their childhood, their current stressors? Dr. Rashbaum did none of that. During my visit, I barely had time to tell him the story of my current pain (at one point he stopped me and told me I was repeating myself. Seriously, a man with very little sympathy). The 45-minute time limit really puts a damper on how much info you can discuss. On the other hand, he was able to tell me definitively that I have TMS and do NOT have the other things I was diagnosed with. That was a great relief. |
Edited by - gailnyc on 05/05/2013 14:22:36 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2013 : 16:38:58
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So he diagnosed you with TMS yet wants to refer you to a foot and ankle orthopedist? I wonder if he realizes what a confusing message he is sending. I think TMS doctors should be extra careful about what they say and how they say it.
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2013 : 17:29:01
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Can one doctor really have this broad an expertise in this day and age? Very impressive if it's true.
Medical Expertise
• Stroke rehabilitation
• Traumatic brain injury
• Chronic pain
• Sports medicine
• Musculoskeletal disorders including back pain, neck pain, shoulder pain, knee pain and arthritis-related joint pain
• Hand rehabilitation
• Geriatric rehabilitation
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2013 : 18:28:29
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GNYC,
You got 45 minutes of his time, WOW, that's a lot from a physician! I've been lucky to get three minutes to state my case on most doctor visits. Maybe you were repeating yourself. If he were just in it for the money, he could probably have seen three other patients in the time he gave you. I think it's rather presumptuous to think he should change his whole schedule and make everyone else wait, that seems like an unrealistic expectation.
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2013 : 18:37:38
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
So he diagnosed you with TMS yet wants to refer you to a foot and ankle orthopedist? I wonder if he realizes what a confusing message he is sending. I think TMS doctors should be extra careful about what they say and how they say it.
Alix, this may have been a new symptom, it's a TMS fundamental to eliminate REAL injuries. If her injury was real and he didn't do his due diligence, he could be sued for malpractice. That's one of the major reasons med care is so costly today. I can't fault him for making SURE he dotted all his i's and crossed all his t's in her case, she's questioning his methodology and he's probably picking up on the possibility that she could be litigious if things went south.
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2013 : 23:11:30
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| tennis tom, it would seem logical to eliminate everything first then conclude it is TMS. As far as I can tell in this case, the opposite happened. At the first consultation she was told TMS, but at the second consultation she got referred to an orthopedist. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2013 : 07:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
tennis tom, it would seem logical...
"Logic" has little to do with TMS. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2013 : 14:37:26
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| Yes Alix TT is right. I am suprised that Dr. Sarno has not been sued, not because of doing wrong work, but because of the the newness to his ideas. It is something we all have to practice (defensive medicine). I think the ball is in your court gail, there is nothing more he can add to your recovery, you need to start treating yourself full force. BTW, when I shadowed Dr. Sarno, it seemed to me that he made the TMS diagnosis before he examined the patient. I asked him if he really needed the exam, and he agreed that it was not really necessary. I assume he does it to help convince the patient. Also, we are under a strong time constraint when working as a doctor, so Dr. R. has only an alloted time, or everyone after will be delayed for their appointment. I cannot fault any doctor who has to cut a visit short after the alloted time is up. |
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Weird Toes
