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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
 Posted - 04/28/2013 : 19:24:57
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TMS detractors often point out a lack of scientific laboratory studies proving it, feeling Dr. Sarnos's years of clinical practice and observations is not enough evidence. The Good Doctor has said, due to the complexity of the mind, we may never in our lifetime know, or perhaps ever, discover the proof needed by today's scientific standards of its infinite manifestations. To me this is analogous to the lack of proof for M theory of the structure of the universe:
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Quoted from the Wiki:
"M-theory is not yet complete, but the underlying structure of the mathematics has been established and is in agreement with all the string theories. Furthermore, it has passed many tests of internal mathematical consistency.
"Until some way is found to observe the yet hypothetical higher dimensions, which are needed for consistency reasons, M-theory has a very difficult time making predictions that can be tested in a laboratory. Technologically, it may never be possible for it to be experimentally confirmed."
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There's a neat quote by Deepak Chopra, in Vanda Scaravelli's yoga book, "AWAKENING THE SPINE", that correlates to this from a TMS perspective:
"...We need to consult the quantum to really discover how the mind pivots on the turning point of a molecule. A neuro-peptide springs into existence at the touch of a thought but where does it spring from? A thought of fear and the neuro-chemical it turns into are somehow connected in a hidden process, a transformation of non-matter into matter."
Page 62. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 04/30/2013 20:04:11 |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2013 : 17:37:06
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| Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. |
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Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 17:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
PSPA123:
There is no evidence for the existence of a god or of extraterrestrial intelligence or subatomic “strings”. Moreover, at least in the first two cases there is no way to prove nonexistence. That doesn’t mean that existence should be assumed in our quest for knowledge and understanding. Indeed, making such assumptions is likely to lead us down dead ends and result in wasted effort. There were many books written about possible purposes for Martian canals.
How to prove the validity of Sarno’s theory is an interesting question. In fact it may be two separate questions: 1. Is back pain sometimes psychogenic? and 2. Can psychogenic back pain be relieved for some patients through the use of TMS techniques? “Back pain” is only a placeholder for the many physical symptoms claimed to be psychogenic. There is certainly a lot of evidence that many symptoms could be psychogenic but I’m unaware of any studies specifically aimed at that question. How would you conduct such a study?
The second question is fraught with difficulty. What are the TMS techniques? There is definitely much disagreement on that here! Moreover, as evidenced by many posts, these variuos techniques don’t work for a lot of people. How do we know that positive results are not the result of normal healing? Again, designing a definitive study is a challenge but not impossible.
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 19:21:25
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| Peregrinus, are you familiar with Alfred Jules Ayer and logical positivism? |
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Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 05:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
Peregrinus, are you familiar with Alfred Jules Ayer and logical positivism?
Although I resist being labeled, I guess I am a positivist. I certainly don't agree that truth is what you feel or dream about or what your Sunday school teacher told you. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 08:45:40
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So how do "we" prove Dr. Sarno's theory? I'd say one way is read the Success Stories here and at many other review sites. Read his books recounting his years of clinical practice. Follow his instructions and prove it to yourself. I've proved it many times with too many episodes of TMS pain too list. I prove it every day when I get out of bed, go to work, be productive, play tennis shaking off TMS "attacks" observing others quitting with pain symptoms that I KNOW are TMS, taking themselves off the playing field and heading to the bar.
Do we need a study to prove that the sun comes up every morning and the stars come out at night before we believe it? Needing a piece of paper in my hand from the Harvard Medical Review that tells me "TMS is Proven" before I buy into it, smacks of mindless religion. I believe today's religion to many is "science". What's the difference between believing what's in a study or believing what's in the Bible? I wasn't there when they did the study and I wasn't in the Garden of Eden either. You or I believe the lies we want to believe, but it's hard to carry-on unless one believes in something.
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Edited by - tennis tom on 05/01/2013 09:09:55 |
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Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 05:44:46
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Needing a piece of paper in my hand from the Harvard Medical Review that tells me "TMS is Proven" before I buy into it, smacks of mindless religion.
Tennis Man:
Are you saying that clinical trials are not needed? Do you want to be treated with untested drugs and procedures?
I personally believe that Sarno’s theory is valid and that I and many others have benefited from its practice. However, my beliefs have no currency with others. I would like to get confirmation that the inferences I have drawn are correct. Anecdotal evidence is the most unreliable form of proof. Even personal experience can mislead. I for one have fooled myself on numerous occasions.
It isn’t necessary to make “Sarnoism” into a religion.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 06:37:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Peregrinus
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Needing a piece of paper in my hand from the Harvard Medical Review that tells me "TMS is Proven" before I buy into it, smacks of mindless religion.
Tennis Man:
Are you saying that clinical trials are not needed? Do you want to be treated with untested drugs and procedures?
I personally believe that Sarno’s theory is valid and that I and many others have benefited from its practice. However, my beliefs have no currency with others. I would like to get confirmation that the inferences I have drawn are correct. Anecdotal evidence is the most unreliable form of proof. Even personal experience can mislead. I for one have fooled myself on numerous occasions.
It isn’t necessary to make “Sarnoism” into a religion.
Some of the worst stock tips I've ever had were from Harvard MBA,s and most of them would lead a non-profit into bankruptcy.
I don't take any drugs and haven't for years, haven't been to a doctor for years, only go if I'm sick or have a Q-tip stuck in my ear. If the docs had to treat me, I'd probably be unconscious and wouldn't have any say in the matter.
The reliability of anecdotal evidence depends on who is telling the anecdotes, I believe my own anecdotes. I've been wrong on some occasions and I factor that into "my" science. The religion of Sarno is as good as any others around currently treating the mindbody.
Sarno has done clinical trials and he's not believed. The medical/industrial complex realizes if his revolutionary TMS theory was accepted and put into practice, they would be out of "business". Doctors would be back to making house calls and practicing out of a spare room in their homes--bye, bye Jaguar and all the junket medical conference vacations to Maui and La Quinta.
tt/lsmft |
Edited by - tennis tom on 05/02/2013 06:49:18 |
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All1Spirit
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 07:10:32
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It is human nature to become proselytizers and often zealots when they believe they have found the truth. In the case of medical treatments we are as different as we are the same. What works for one person may well make another worse.
People are healed by rubbing chicken lip potents on themselves. Sarno said that the brain and nervous system can crate pain that mimics structural damage. He was about 200 years late: 18th century Austrian physician Franz Mesmer believed you could heal with what turned out to be placebo effects. Sigmund Freud looked for non-physical causes of disorders and the lost goes on.
What Sarno did is cause the medical model to question causation. Unfortunately he went to far as zealots often do. He came to consider all pain to originate from the psyche and nervous system. There are many reports of him throwing away people radiology films without ever looking at them – and they had major physical problems including tumors with later complications while the dallied with TMS.
Sarno deserves credit for challenging the medical Descarte model and reminding us that the brain can create hundreds of symptoms with no physical cause. Where he lost credibility and really went off the “Rails” was when he mixed Freud’s failed theory of psychodynamics and TMS.
While there is hard science on the mind/body process of creating pain and disorders the modality of digging for historic emotional causes has long been discredited and often proven to cause more suffering.
People on this forum have either found relief with TMS protocols of still hope to. Those who are Sarno failures will be off looking for other ways to heal...or they just healed on their own.
That means that any forum like this is weighted in the favor of one myopic approach held by a few. I worked the Sarno program in earnest for 5 months. It did absolutely nothing for my foot and shoulder/neck pain. I stop by occasionally to see if any new wisdom is posted.
"Around and Around the Circle We Go....
The Answer Sits In The Middle and Knows..." |
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Peregrinus
250 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 07:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
[quote... I believe my own anecdotes.
Tennis Man:
Being closed minded, self righteous and bombastic isn’t going to help your hip.
“Stock tips from Harvard MBAs?? Where did that come from?
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Edited by - Peregrinus on 05/02/2013 07:22:42 |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 07:41:07
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quote:
Originally posted by All1Spirit
the favor of one myopic approach held by a few. I worked the Sarno program in earnest for 5 months. It did absolutely nothing for my foot and shoulder/neck pain. I stop by occasionally to see if any new wisdom is posted.
"Around and Around the Circle We Go....
The Answer Sits In The Middle and Knows..."
This forum is the one forum I ever found which accepts the idea that physical symptoms are generated by emotions. There is another, Anxiety Centre, which essentially says the same thing, but, unless I do not remember correctly, there was no exchange of information, but it is a very good site.
So after visiting every site on the internet about foot and shoulder/neck pain, what have you found?
More and more sites that I have revisited after years, run by honest people, have more or less come to the conclusion that there is a very strong emotional component to the physical problem, with one or more of the sites even repudiating prior physical causes.
So you gave the ideas five months to work, less time than a femur to heal, when "something" has possibly been broken for a lifetime?
I do not think that examination of past emotional problems are the answer for the majority. For many, it is relearning how to think and understanding that we are not our thoughts and overcoming fear. Some, however, need to examine their lives and find out why their tip of the iceberg looks like it does. Ace's Keys integrate an approach, I believe, that can work for most.
Just curious, do you have documentation that Dr. Sarno tossed away images and that some people actually were later dx'd with cancer? These most likely would be public record in lawsuits, and also the subject of fraud and scam alerts across the internet. That said, some doctors I visited did not read my MRI transcripts or even look at the images. My PCP, whom I like, and who is a DO, I had to ask him to "read carefully" the transcript of my spinal MRI --after he glanced at it and declared me hopeless--because it did not match the symptoms. After reading it again carefully, he agreed, then he added that I looked "very anxious". No ****. I was. Off the charts anxious. Many doctors think they know all and, like most, draw conclusions before taking the time to examine and think. They are human too, and fall into routine and habit.
As far as revisiting the site for new pearls of wisdom, I don't think you will find anything new. It has all been said and is archived, both problem and solution.
It could be that you have some structural malady with your shoulder and neck and foot, and need to really have total work up? If that has been done, then what?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 09:54:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Peregrinus
Being closed minded, self righteous and bombastic isn’t going to help your hip.
But, I'm sure having a good time! How's your day going, are you happy?
I'm playing at 11:30 today, and 10:00 tomorrow, when's the last time you played tennis? Keep an open mind until you get your facts straight, make a decision and then close it and act.
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Edited by - tennis tom on 05/02/2013 09:56:41 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2013 : 10:37:49
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Well said Back2-It,
Ric is a very confused young man, he trolls here with his usual "Sarno is myopic" spiel, (BTW, Dr. Sarno looks very good in glasses and has a full head of hair), yet he's looking and hoping for "pearls of wisdom" for his TMS ailments. Ric's problem is he's mired in his own psychobabble and depends on it to make a living. Media needs to come up with a new headline everyday to sell it's fish-wraps and birdcage liners. They lost a lot of business when fish & chips could no longer be wrapped in yesterday's yellowing journalism, due to government regulation, as that nut job Bloomberg exhibits everyday in NYC. Journalism also lost a lot of business due to low budgie sales.
Ric's writing a story to debunk Dr. Sarno and he's trolling this site for material. For some strange reason, the mass of humanity believes if they read something in "the paper" or some ex-beauty pageant contestant says it on the 11 o'clock news, it must be TRUE. Whoever said there's two things you don't want to witness being manufactured, sausages and laws, should have added news stories.
Dr. Sarno's TMS, didn't work for RIC, yet he comes here stealing hope from those who need to BELIEVE it the most. Ric does sound a bit more chipper then when he first arrived at this message board's steps. The Good Doctor never said he could heal everybody, in fact he carefully screened and weeded out the majority of potential patients, selecting those who were open-minded enough to accept that their pain was of psychosomatic origin. This was done not to waste the time and money of those Dr. Sarno could, tell needed their pain, as a defense mechanism PROTECTOR. Most of the planet's Westernized cultures needs their voo-doo as a PROTECTOR from emotional pain.
This site is a microcosm of a microcosm. There's less then a handful who read it on a daily basis, maybe a hundred. There's little chance that we'll infect the rest of the planet with our Pollyanna approach to medicine. I got all the proof I needed when I read that Dr. Sarno cured two of my heroes of their TMS: Mrs. Robinson and Howard Stern!
As far as Ric's "anecdote" about "cancer x-rays", I've been around here a while, read a lot of other stuff about the Good Doctor, and this is the FIRST I've ever heard that one!. It would be helpful if Ric, as a professional journalist, would give us a citation for that it.
Having been a news-junkie most of my life, I no longer read papers, or listen to TV news and feel much happier for it. If anything important happens, I'll see the people running, feel it, or hear about it in the hot-tub--whoever said ignorance is bliss was a very wise-guy.
So, Back2-it, yours was a good reply to Ric, keep it handy and just copy it for his next pearl dive here. No need coming up with new material for him, he's been saying the same thing since he asked for help here, got oodles of sound TMS Knowledge Penicillin advice, and then proceeded to ignore it. Funny how he derisively undermines the Good Doctor life's work and reputation, yet keeps checking in here hoping for help--I don't get that one? Anything anyone needs to TMS "heal" is contained in Dr. Sarno's fist paperback book.
Cheers,
tt/lsmft
(Disclaimer: I am NOT a healthcare professional, only a tennis player, anything I write here is for entertainment value and should not be construed as medical advice--my lawyer made me say that, he drives a Volvo.) |
Edited by - tennis tom on 05/02/2013 15:26:53 |
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2013 : 20:18:39
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TT- i havent looked into a lot of the posts for a few weeks, but am interested to see that Ric is still posting the same message. For a while, i have wondered whether he was simply using this forum in order to write an article on self-help internet forums? Has he written something lately which also gives you that impression? If that is the case, then i would think some honesty is called for by Rik. What is his real reason for posting here? Is he simply using the forum (and the people on it) for an ulterior motive which relates to his work purposes? Rik- if so, then at least let people know this, and then they can decide whether to take you seriously or not, or reply to your posts etc.
James |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 08:40:45
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Hi Dr. Alexander,
What was telling to me was when Ric, sold off his entire "collection" of TMS books and materials--if you're a true TMS believer, a "proselytizer" or a "zealot" like me, for instance, you would never think of ridding yourself of them, I have loaned them out and bought a bunch of SteveO's and Nicole Sachs's books to view at my business. If you "get" TMS, you realize it's something you're not cured of, but can get better at, build up an immunity to and may need a booster again when life's vicissitudes presents a symptom someday--it would be like giving away the "family Bible, or the family TV Guide--you don't throw away a box of Band-Aids after one cut or those un-used Vicodens, drugs have a really long shelf life.
It would be interesting if someone would sift through Ric's posts here and do a profile of his timeline of falling away from the TMS fold.
He did a superficial skimming of the TMS info, did not do the soul-searching, concluded Dr. Sarno has erred on occasion and was therefore NOT the medical/scientific GOD, Ric had been praying for, to deliver him from his mindbody induced pain--so he on a path to discredit him instead.
The problem is Ric cannot be objective being a participant in the story. He cannot see the forest for the trees, his TMS is doing its distracting him. I'm not going to spend my time dx'ing Ric's Sarno falling out, I've tried to give him some leads, like the Rahe-Holmes list of life stressors but he went about discrediting them too. It's popular to revise history today--maybe the world isn't really round but flat after-all. If you read his history of postings here, you'll see he's ALL over the map with his mood swings. The threads he started were all over the place with little dialogueing.
TMS is about BELIEVING the mindbody is the primary healing device. The docs can help at times and scientific technology can be a lifesaver too--but the MINDBODY is the key player, in sickness and in health. I'm sure Ric wouldn't run into a church service and shout out: "Your god is a bunch of malarkey", like he's doing here. Those who accept TMS move on getting better, some like Ric are always looking for loop- holes on why it doesn't apply to them. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 05/05/2013 08:42:17 |
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 16:28:36
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TT- i dont have a problem with anyone trying a particular approach and finding that it is isnt for them. But i get the sneaking suspicion that Rik is using the forum for research into self-help net-based forums, perhaps for the purpose of writing an article on them. Of course, this could merely be the workings of a paranoid mind, but if it is the case, then i would think the honourable thing to do would be to inform the 'subjects' of his research.
James |
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Proving TMS
