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RikR
USA
94 Posts |
 Posted - 03/18/2013 : 18:39:43
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The Sarno theory is that pain is caused by repressed emotions stressing the central nervous system and then reducing oxygen to the muscles causing pain.
Basic physiology 101 show that stress profuses the muscles and brain with more oxygen and blood flow to prepare for flight. SPECT scans show that the brain has marked increase of blood flow and oxygen.
If anyone knows how the Sarno theory of reduced oxygen works in light of basic physiology I would like to learn. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 18:50:13
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| I believe Dr. Sarno deduced this by observing that heat, which stimulates blood flow, can temporarily relieve tight sore muscles. I don't understand his theory to involve CNS stress per se, but rather an unconscious mechanism directly producing pain in affected tissues. If there were overall CNS stress would the effects not be more generalized? In any case, I don't think the mechanism is that important to his theory, and I believe far more knowledgeable people than me have said the same. |
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RikR
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 19:10:59
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Heat such as a heating pad, hot bath or spa does not reach deep enough into the tissues to have a major effect on the muscles.
If heat over 40 degrees Celsius (104 F slightly above body temperature) is applied to the skin near where internal pain is felt, it switches on heat receptors located at the site of injury. These heat receptors in turn block the effect of chemical messengers that cause pain to be detected by the body.
The heat receptor, known as TRPV1, can block P2X3 pain receptors. These pain receptors are activated by ATP, the body’s source of energy, when it is released from damaged and dying cells. By blocking the pain receptors, TRPV1 is able to stop the pain being sensed by the body.
If Sarno used heat as theory to suggest oxygen depravation was the cause of pain I think he missed a bit of neurophysiology.
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 19:19:00
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Interview: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478840
Ultimately the physiology of what is taking place in the body is unimportant as far a recovery is concerned, and it is only mentioned at all in order to inform the patient that they have nothing seriously wrong with them. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 03/18/2013 19:21:30 |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 19:43:45
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I think you know too much for your own good RikR. with all that education and knowledge you had and you can't heal yourself. Just wonder what method you're using?
Shawn, you need to have membership to view that medscape article. Can you cut and past it here? Thanks,
------------------------
No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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RikR
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 20:34:55
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Balto
If people are healed by this why is anyone still around. I have been working the program and not seeing any results. I have direct contacts to some of the well known TMS doctors and have been checking in with them on my work.
I can not be hypnotized and am not swayed by mere suggestion and if this is about suggestion then it wont work for me. That Sarno and his clones saying that people read a book and are cured tells me that,one, they were not that bad off and two it was placebo effect.
If reading cured them then where is the repressed emotions paradigm.
I absolutely believe in the mind/body connection, I just want to know that the premise and conclusions are not faulty.
Also that people should just ignore pain and go use the muscles is ridiculous if the muscles are under great tension. This is how you tear soft tissue.
So I am sorting red herrings from fact. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 20:48:45
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| The theory is that the unconscious' strategy of creating pain to "distract" the individual from unacceptable emotions is only successful (or is most successful) if the person does not understand that this is going on. Thus, according to Sarno, for some people it is enough to understand that their pain is psychogenic to defeat the unconscious' strategy. I am sure Dave Tom and others can explain it better. |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 20:51:28
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| I don't think that Sarno ever really knew how the CNS/brain creates pain in the body, but I think we can all agree that it can cause pain in the absence of physical injury, all by itself. I don't think that theory of oxygen deprivation is that central to the theory. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 21:09:36
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RikR, I erred for 2 years on this TMS journey a few years ago. I went absolutely nowhere. I was searching for TMS books, articles, programs, doctors and that became a full time distraction for me (something Monte is rightfully warning us to avoid). I tried to reconcile discrepancies between the different TMS books. I was frustrated and depressed. I gave up.
What worked the second time around is that I just did the psychological work, quietly, without distraction. It is only when I got stuck that I came back to the forum to get a few ideas but I still did not post.
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Dr James Alexander
Australia
127 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 21:22:59
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does anyone know how it works? Good question Rik. I'm not sure if anyone has the answer. I have spoken to several physiotherapists, physicians and physiologists about the ischemia theory, and each of those who i have spoken to have all agreed that a decrease in blood (and therefore oxygen) supply will result in nerve and muscle pain. I trust people who are trained in biology and physiology to have a better understanding of how this results than people who are trained in psychology or social sciences, myself included.
The results of internalising and working with this model tend to speak for themselves. People regularly get better from psychophysiological pain as a result of learning of the connection between their (largely unconscious) stresses (as opposed to their conscious stresses) and chronic pain- many of the people who i have seen get better (even quickly) were largely crippled by their pain, so it was not a low level problem.
For some people, merely learning of this connection is enough to represent an experience of non-confirmation of their previous pain schema (how they make sense of their pain, their expectations about it etc). For some people, this will trigger a spontaneous reconsolidation experience (see Ecker etal, or any other credible and up to date neuroscience information, eg. Panksepp), which can then lead on to a radical reduction of their pain, as the pain supporting schema is no longer sustainable in light of the new information. This is the fabled 'book-cure' which does happen (and i have also had clients recover from severe long lasting chronic pain before the book could even arrive at the bookshop! So, quicker than book-cure).
And for other people, they will need to explore what are their problematic issues (often not readily available to their conscious awareness- these tend to be different than their conscious stressors, and also entail a different neurology and physiology). Some people can do this on their own, or with the assistance of journaling, or other self-help exercises; while other people will require particular forms of depth-psychotherapy to ascertain and deal with this deeper material in a transformative way.
People who recover from TMS tend not to hang around and contribute to chat rooms- as a result, you dont get to hear from them much (and are then inclined to conclude that because you dont hear from them, they dont exist). As any therapist working with this approach can assure you, they do exist, even if they are outside of your range of experience.
Based on working with literally tens of thousands of sufferers (and seeing most of them get better), Sarno has communicated what does not work in treating TMS. Being cynical about this approach will ensure that it will not work with you. This is not unusual in health care practices, especially psychological ones. If you expect it to not work because of your preconceived notions and theories, it will not work- you will have created a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sticking to the surface level of emotions will not work, nor will therapies which keep you on the surface level of cognitions. The most these approaches will ever do is decrease the level of your emotional stress (often a very welcome outcome) which may flow on to a decrease in muscular tension and therefore more blood/oxygen getting back into your pained areas (resulting in less pain). It is not impossible, but it is (in my experience, from having worked in CBT oriented pain management clinics) very rare for this approach to result in either a substantial decrease in pain, or an eradication of it.
Denial is a very powerful defense mechanism, and like all others, is designed to keep you psychologically safe. Ditto for cynicism. You cannot hope to get better if you maintain the use of these defense mechanisms, and trying to drag others into the quagmire with you (spreading cynicism) will only ensure that you have more company which can then keep reinforcing your denial- great for you, but what about them?
At some point in time, it may be useful for you to ask yourself "why is it more important for me to be in pain (including the emotional pain and cynicism which go with it) than it is for me to be pain free?". Neither I nor anyone else can answer that question for you. There is an emotional fragility in people who want to keep it all safe and clean, non messy and on the cognitive level. Emotions (especially deep hurts) are very scary, and can be driving all sorts of behavoiur without you having any awareness of it, including defense mechanisms.
Your defense mechanisms of cynicism and denial are in place for a very good reason, whatever it may be. They are there to keep you emotionally safe. And they will ensure that you remain cut off from all sorts of possibilities, including healing. I can only assume that the psychological reasons for keeping these defense mechanisms in place are currently more compelling than the reasons to get better. Were you genuinely willing to avail yourself to some decent depth-psychotherapy, then you may be able to ascertain what its all about- and this would hold the key to your thorough healing (the type of which i and many others regularly see in our clients). But as long as your defense mechanisms are in charge, you will continue to play it safe with surface level therapies and ideas, none of which will reveal the truth of what is actually driving you- it will only help you to contain what is there and learn to manage it. If thats all you are up for, fine- no problem- its everyone's individual choice. But just because that is your choice does not mean that it needs to be everyone else's choice, and that they need to be stuck with a lack of genuine healing. Misery loves company, and is constantly inviting other people into the same space. However, the company still have a choice in the matter.
James |
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njoy
Canada
188 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 22:42:05
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Hi, Rik. Not that I'd know, but I've always thought Sarno's theories were bogus. Right from the beginning. But he said it worked and it did, too, at least for me.
Did you listen in on the Alan Gordon webinar, today? Really, really good.
*****
"It's worth considering that tms is not a treatment but rather an unfolding of the self, and a way of living as an emotionally aware and engaged soul." Plum |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 22:51:22
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quote:
Originally posted by RikR
If people are healed by this why is anyone still around.
Rik, I'm here because I'm interested in the topic. I'm a senior tournament tennis player. I play nearly everyday for two hours, swim and then go to work. On weekends I play for about five hours on Sat and Sun. TMS works! Using TMS thinking, I shake off things that would have others running to their docs being dx'ed with plantar fascitis, frozen shoulder, RSI, shin-splints, and lets not forget tennis elbow. For affective TMS symptoms, I've used TMS to overcome "clinical" depression, ordinary everyday depression, insomnia, "OCD", "CF" and too many other things that I can't recall at the moment. Look at the success stories section here. Since I've been here I've seen hundreds of pain sufferers come, get it, and go off. They leave functioning again with the very powerful tool of TMS in their mindbody medicine cabinet.
Rik, you aren't doing a very scientific study of this forum if you are judging it by hanging around here for a few weeks. One common denominator I've seen for those who don't get better is nit-picking TMS minuitae from a "scintific" view point and not getting the big picture. Dr. Sarno says we will never understand the intricate workings of the mind in our lifetimes and maybe never, because the mind is too complex to comprehend. Those who are married to "science" as their religion will have difficulty making the LEAP OF FAITH required to accept the Good Doctor's theory.
Rik, I'm not quite sure what you are doing here. One moment your proselytizing and the next you're criticizing. You talk the talk of psychology but seem to have a problem with it's practical application. To me TMS is just applied psychology. |
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njoy
Canada
188 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 22:56:44
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It's interesting that you say you can't be hypnotized. That's unusual. Almost everyone spends a lot of time in a mild trance. Daydreaming, meditation, taking an elevator, etc.
If you really can't be hypnotized perhaps your brain races all the time. That could be a significant problem.
*****
"It's worth considering that tms is not a treatment but rather an unfolding of the self, and a way of living as an emotionally aware and engaged soul." Plum |
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chickenbone
Panama
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 10:40:32
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| Frankly, I think that TMS is the best thing since sliced bread. It is the only thing that ever worked for me. In fact, I really believe I am pretty much cured of TMS. My pain and symptoms are gone. When one shows up, I know it and just promise myself to address the psychological issues involved and it usually disappears quickly. Now, I have all the issues back in my mind. But now I am dealing with mood disorder which is why I stay on the forum. I have no pain, but most importantly, no fear of having pain. I have had mood disorder all my life. It occasionally erupts into TMS. This mood disorder is probably my core issue. I am reluctant to see a therapist because it would take a lot of money and effort because of where I live. I won't trash my past therapists, they all meant well and helped somewhat. However, I am uncertain of getting a "to the point" one, which is the only type I am interested in at this point. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 11:26:27
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| Inability to be hypontized is an indication of lack of mental suggestability. They are extemely resistant to the placebo effect. This is usually the case with very intense, analytical people including doctors like myself. I was resistant to all placebos and everything I tried, when other people would usually get a benefit. Only true healing helps these kind of people and they need a lot of repetition and hard work (not strain) to overcome their illnesses. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 11:33:06
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| A couple of psychologists who claimed to know how tried to hypnotize me with zero effect. I just assumed they were incompetent, but maybe the problem was me. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 15:28:34
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quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
...My pain and symptoms are gone. When one shows up, I know it and just promise myself to address the psychological issues involved and it usually disappears quickly.
...But now I am dealing with mood disorder which is why I stay on the forum.
...I am reluctant to see a therapist because it would take a lot of money and effort because of where I live.
...I am uncertain of getting a "to the point" one, which is the only type I am interested in at this point.
Try treating your "mood disorder" as you would a TMS structural symptom. It could be a TMS/affective (emotional) symptom. You probably have the books, look up "AFFECTIVE" TMS symptoms in them. Treat it like the physical, switch your thinking to the "psychological issues involved".
I doubt if there's a TMS therapist in Panama. I agree, a TMS savvy therapist would be much more efficient. I've had some phone consults and they can be very effective. Contact SteveO or Nicole, I think they both do phone work. I don't think it would take too many sessions since you're already TMS savvy.
G'luck!
tt
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sue1012
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 15:29:30
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Wow...that is interesting about hypnosis, Ace. What you wrote describes me exactly, and no one has ever been able to hypnotize me.
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RikR
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 15:52:56
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| In med school I was in placebo trials - I ALWAYS knew the difference |
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alangordon
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 16:18:25
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| Howard Schubiner believes that the mechanism isn't oxygen deprivation, but rather learned nerve pathways in the brain. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 16:24:48
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quote:
Originally posted by alangordon
Howard Schubiner believes that the mechanism isn't oxygen deprivation, but rather learned nerve pathways in the brain.
I believe that is what Dr. Hanscom says as well in Back in Control. |
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Anyone Know How This Works ??
